Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[JeffBerlin]

I think this too doesn't exist really, if thought through.
Learning without any guidance at all...I doubt that very much.

I totally agree! Perhaps I need a new term for this. The idea is that what one chooses for themselves to embrace as meaningful in their playing falls under my title of "Self Taught" because they are teaching themselves via these methods. Or at least making the decision to embrace them.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I would say, NO, because on one side we have an accomplished Musician/Composer/Arranger/Bass player/Teacher, etc...
with decades of knowledgeable experience, with lots of records, concerts all over the world,
and
on the other side, we have some "cute" TB nicknames, "beautiful" avatars, etc...

So like I asked, what is the point? I could use a summary.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I've been trying to come up with an honest answer for the title question, but it's really a stupor for me.. The closest thing I can think of would be something like sports (Yes, there's fact involved with a good bit of it), a lot of what I see taught (from grade school and beyond) is often passed down from experience. Like how to approach tackling someone in football. (I may be speaking completely from my ass here too) There's no real set guidelines, just certain techniques and ideas people have developed over the years and passed on to the kids/adults they're now coaching.
Besides that, my next best example would be something abstract like philosophy. (Another thing I have no real experience in, but can only assume it's hard to really teach such an idea in "facts")

Interesting how hard it is to find anything that isn't taught factually. This is important to relate to how one chooses to be taught the bass. Realize that there is always practice sessions in sports. And philosophy classes requires the reading and discussion of philosophical points of view, an academic undertaking. I just don't believe that anything anywhere is taught "in time." Except, unfortunately, the electric bass guitar.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Music is just something people do. It's not magic or rocket science.

Well said. My guts tend to disagree, because to me (as listener), music is always about feelings.
And I want to have that freedom when trying to make music.

However, I know that this is not important to many listeners - otherwise, no one would like the early works of Mozart, in which he had to hold back his creativity and meet the expectations of his contractor. I agree, that is a very professional approach.

And I can imagine that some misunderstandings here in this thread may come from a different point of view or understanding what music would be or mean - or, even worse, what one thinks music should mean.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Who are you? Who, who, and wanna know....?
A self-taught musician?

Anyway.
Here is one of a very few most talented young musicians - Jaboc Collier - a singer, arranger, composer, producer, and multi-instrumentalist (and a very good bass player) based in London, England.
Jacob, who is mostly self-taught, has been creating music for all of his 23 years.




Here Jacob talks about Music Theory:







Would that extremely talented Musician - Jacob Collier could be a good teacher?

Maybe! Maybe not! He's a product of his genius.

 

[lfmn16]

has been answered multiple times... tap your foot. difference is: then you are not dominated by the external click and can analyze the rhythm and the melodic/harmonic content while reading and playing...

How do you think a metronome prevents you from doing this??

I guess I don't get the whole problem some people have with metronomes. It's like any other tool - use it when you need it; it's not good for everything.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Nice discussion, and as usual lots of different opinions from us TB'ers.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the importance of actively listening to music (and specifically to great bassists). As Wynton Marcalis once said in a master class I attended (and I paraphrase heavily): "Music is an aural tradition; you have to have it in your head before it can come out your fingers".

Good point from Wynton.

 

[JeffBerlin]

How do you think a metronome prevents you from doing this??

I guess I don't get the whole problem some people have with metronomes. It's like any other tool - use it when you need it; it's not good for everything.

I am interested to know what you feel that it is good for. Can you share?

 

[JeffBerlin]

@JeffBerlin can you recommend any good online music courses that follow your approach to learning?

I can't because of the rules here on Talkbass.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I criticize the system that many rely on.

I do appreciate this thread, since I don't have experienced academical music education; only basics at school.
Is there a parallel of your criticism to the (nomral non-music) school system?

As for normal schools, there are many valid points to criticize, IMHO. Yet, I do know that my teachers had some degrees of freedom to teach us things outside the curriculum - foremost to encourage us, to put faith and trust in us, which astonishingly is not part of any German school curriculum.

So, back to my question: Is that an issue you see in music schools or academies, as well; a lack of degrees of freedom for teachers; or maybe even how teachers are selected? Is there a parrallel to the normal school system's issues?

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

I think that the notion that we can learn music as a child learns it is the point that I don't see as true. I learned Spanish as a second language at age 35, but learned it starting out in an academic program as I assume that you do. It is the academic elements that make it easier for adults to learn other languages. I would submit that if as an adult, you were required to learn three new languages by ear, your story might be different.

Correct ... at some point, a teaching process has to become more formal to ensure an adequate level of achievement ..

 

[Spin Doctor]

Well said. My guts tend to disagree, because to me (as listener), music is always about feelings.
And I want to have that freedom when trying to make music.

However, I know that this is not important to many listeners - otherwise, no one would like the early works of Mozart, in which he had to hold back his creativity and meet the expectations of his contractor. I agree, that is a very professional approach.

And I can imagine that some misunderstandings here in this thread may come from a different point of view or understanding what music would be or mean - or, even worse, what one thinks music should mean.

I think you are assuming that a musician is always "projecting" some kind of feeling to you during a performance, simply because you happen to feel something from the music. That's not nearly always the case. In most of those cases when you "feel" something, you are just reacting to someone who is good at what he does. It's no more complicated than that

 

[JeffBerlin]

@JeffBerlin Just to double down on my question and show that it was earnest... I thought I would offer a slight elaboration by saying that I perceive a depth of feeling in Zappa's instrumental work that is certainly not evident in his lyrics, much of which are intentionally juvenile... My petite bourgeois instinct is to psychoanalyze the guy and conclude, "Well, the music is his REAL sentiment and the lyric is a rather transparent defense mechanism."

But maybe he just knows how to tickle the strings? Because on one level, playing a guitar is a trick of manual dexterity, as you say.... Anyway, sorry, I realize this is off the line of the discussion proper, but your post about getting all the "ducks in a row" and harmonizing effortlessly like pumpin' chakras led me back to this question about Zappa, it haunts me, I tell ya!

Haha! I enjoyed your post.

Sure he tickled the strings with joy. Sure he's a self taught musician with a musical vision. There are many ways to learn, but most of them don't work for most people. Not in your case, but when people mention, say, Jaco Pastorius' self taught brilliance, they might not notice that I'm not talking about the inner creative spark because it won't help other players to play better.

 

[lfmn16]

I am interested to know what you feel that it is good for. Can you share?

Keeping time.

I've studied with a lot of people over 45+ years, among them Lynn Peters at North Carolina School of the Arts and Steve Brewster, Principal Bass of the National Symphony Orchestra at the time of his death and they both approved of the use of metronomes. It's not something you use constantly, you use it where needed.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think this too doesn't exist really, if thought through.
Learning without any guidance at all...I doubt that very much.

If you felt that this is my message, I apologize. I don't think this at all.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I think you are assuming that a musician is always "projecting" some kind of feeling to you during a performance, when you happen to feel something from the music. That's not nearly always the case. In most of those cases when you "feel" something, you are just reacting to someone who is good at what he does. It's no more complicated than that

You are right, sorry if I failed to express it properly, but that was what I was trying to say.
Was a surprise to me, when I realized that, at first, that there are wonderful players who don't even like what they play.
Just an example. I also imagine that some fresh solo violinist might only feel tension - and relief when it's done
And that is fine with me - I am in no position to criticise others as bass player. As part of the audience, however, I do expect passion - when I see an annoyed looking musician on stage, I feel the urge to leave.

 

[JeffBerlin]

People have different levels of "efficiency" in HOW they learn to imitate what they hear.

You're conflating the purpose/goal (imitating what we hear) with the method of acquiring that ability.

When learning a language - the goal/purpose is to be able to communicate, but the fastest/easiest way to achieve that goal is different for different people.

I don't believe that I ever stated anything like this to the contrary. And consider that whatever one's goals are, every style of music that bass players play has an Emaj chord in there somewhere. This is an example to identify that no matter what your musical goals are, you and I are all sharing the exact same harmony, so it would be a good idea to learn how this works instead of learning how to groove (as an example.)

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

I understand what you are saying. We all learn from other people and there situations.

The term "self taught" relates to what we decide to embrace and trust. In vocational schools, students don't decide this. They are taught what is what. In being self taught, people are told that "this scale" or "that amp" are great. But since you aren't beholden to graduate or fulfill the academic requirements stated by a school or teacher, you can decide for yourself what you want to do about every single aspect of your musical life. This is being self taught!

Crystal clear I’d say ...

 

[JeffBerlin]

So like I asked, what is the point? I could use a summary.

Here is my point:
If you decide to learn by paying a teacher, school, website, I suggest that you ONLY do this to learn how to read music or to study harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic concepts. If these things are not the very center of what you are paying to learn, then I suggest that you find a jazz teacher (even if jazz is not your musical goal) and study with them.

As a self taught player, anything and everything that crosses your path is worthy of consideration even if it isn't always worthy of embracing. But know that this kind of approach to playing isn't reliable. Being taught musical content is, which is why i encourage bass players to make sure that they are only taught this way. Teachers aren't always looking out for you. We tend to embrace our own beliefs and hold tightly to them even if they might not be beneficial to our students.

 

[SteveCS]

Is this a continuation of the other thread JB started? I only ask because, it appears as though only a few people have actually answered the thread topic question...
...

OK I'll bite. Whilst the role of the teacher is primarily concerned with the presentation of facts, it does not, IMHO, stop there.

The teacher can/should also create learning opportunities, or facilitate a journey of exploration, self-discovery and confirmation. After all isn't that what pre-school education is all about. In my personal experience, things I have researched, questionned and/or worked out for myself tend to stick better, especially if I can later affirm what I think I've learned with someone who knows, either by direct discussion or further correlation. So a good teacher provides the student with a way of learning...
Instead of "using the information discussed in class, analyse this passage with respect to how the walking bass creates various chord inversions at the cadences.", try "analyse this passage with respect to how the walking bass creates various chord inversions and note any other points of harmony you think might be significant."