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Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

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#163
bigboy_78 said:
So what is the point of practicing scales, other then to practice scales? I never practice scales, probably should, but could never see the point.....are you saying that practicing is the point?

Doesn't that create a musician who is good at playing scales, but useless at music? As derided by Carol Kaye.
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Scales are THE most overrated aspect of learning and the most popularly addressed academic principle among bass players.

Scales are no more and no less important than any other element of music. Learning scales to use them as specific applicable parts of playing is similar to learning verbs and then making an attempt to use them in live conversation Here, too, you can see that verbs are no more or less important than nouns or adverbs.
 
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#164
Not sure if this post belongs here, but I have had a lot of fun and leanred a lot using this late 19th? early 20th? century book of pieces for the double bass by a German, Emil Teuchert: Tägliche Uebungen für Contrabass (Teuchert, Emil) - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music

I can't read German but it seemes clear to me they are student pieces because they are pretty short, contain different time signatures, half notes quarter notes, triplets, etc. and different keys. They're also fun to listen to and play. I've learned a lot about the fretboard, reading music, different keys, etc. I highly recommend this book.
 
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#165
dbsfgyd1 said:
RE: “Not having Academic takes you less” far assumes that academics have all the answers which obviously they don’t. While it may accelerate the learning process, it certainly isn’t the end all and be all. Where I disagree with the overall premise is as an intuitive learner, nothing brings lessons home like practical application.

Music is not rocket science. There is an undeniable logic to it. There aren’t that many logical combinations that the average bassist is going to have to learn. My experience with two years of music theory, what I got out of it was nomenclature for what I already knew and what when and where to apply it. I will say this, while that course work didn’t really make me a better player, it did make communication among players , composers, and arrangers a lot more efficient. So being honest, it wasn’t a waste of time and money, but what I got out of it wasn’t exactly what’s being sold here.
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It's difficult to comment via words because people can interpret them as they wish. I'll try to be specific.

Learning how to read music and practicing musical exercises synchs up the instantaneous unification of mind, hands, music, and instrument. It is the USE of this kind of practice, the very involvement of practicing meaningful music as an academic part of your musical day that produces a far more creative bass player.

Remember how we all learned how to read and write via academic and "non-artistic" reading and writing exercises and notice how we all can express our thoughts, feelings, and idea creatively from those earlier lessons. Music is exactly the same thing and will make you all much more creative players later on.
 
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#167
JeffBerlin said:
Language without learning how to read and write it produced the limited skills of the Appalachian people during the 1920's. Adults are literally unable to learn music as a language as a child does because their minds are different. The lecture, while interesting, is flawed because it doesn't apply to us.
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You know, being from WV I should find this offensive maybe. But honestly, this is a truly great analogy. After seeing you post a similar statement I started to share it with my friends (of which are from WV too) who, reluctant to learn their theory, want to be "musicians" also. This analogy actually managed to click with a couple of my friends, which I'm very grateful for. It lead us to have a wonderful discussion about various songs in the Real Book and I was able to actually go over some basic progressions with them. By God, you got my friends to learn "Freddie freakin' Freeloader" (which may not be something to be proud of, but for me that's a huge step for them!)
 
#168
JeffBerlin said:
It's difficult to comment via words because people can interpret them as they wish. I'll try to be specific.

Learning music synchs up the instantaneous unification of mind, hands, music, and instrument. This is what happens in a live performance. But if you don't have the material that makes use of mind, hands, and instrument, (this being the literal language of music itself) then it is best that you learn it.
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Question about chops, albeit with a specific example from six-string guitar, but... Zappa claimed that his guitar chops had so badly eroded after a few years of not playing (he was working with computerized symphonies at that point, IIRC) that he could play. Was he merely being hyperbolic, you think? Because the statement was delivered with apparent earnestness. Is possible?

My other question is more abstruse, perhaps, but still on Zappa: some of the guitar work her recorded was so sublime and evokes such deep and conflicting emotion in me when I hear it, that I wonder if that was Zappa's intent?
Was he "feeling" those things, too? Or were his chops merely uber-sharp? Where does technique end and spirit begin, in other words? Or am I imagining things?
 
#176
JeffBerlin said:
It's difficult to comment via words because people can interpret them as they wish. I'll try to be specific.

Learning music synchs up the instantaneous unification of mind, hands, music, and instrument. This is what happens in a live performance. But if you don't have the material that makes use of mind, hands, and instrument, (this being the literal language of music itself) then it is best that you learn it.
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No doubt! That’s pretty clear. Where we part is where it’s best obtained . I must have learned the language of music via osmosis..lol. Have a good one Jeff.
 
#177
JeffBerlin said:
Adults are literally unable to learn music as a language as a child does because their minds are different.
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False.

Adults can learn in the exact same manner as children - they just will not learn as quickly or easily due to the different manner within the physical structure of the brain in which learning occurs.

This applies to ALL learning, no matter the method and no matter the subject.
 
#179
Bryan R. Tyler said:
I understand the point you’re trying to make, but you are presenting it in a logical fallacy. You say that nearly 100% of players learned certain aspects of playing and performing without the aid of a teacher, so why should they players in 2018 not learn these things on their own without having to pay a teacher to show them, correct? The problem with that is that literally everything that any teacher can teach you was learned at some point without a teacher. Following that line of logic no lessons should be taken by anyone because tons of people before them learned all of those things without lessons; it dilutes the thrust of your ideas by representing it that way.

The fact that they can learn it without a teacher does not mean they are better off learning it without a teacher. Maybe it would be better to focus on saying why certain things are better learned without a teacher; for example, learning to lock in with a drummer is better taught when playing with an actual drummer than a bass instructor as a metronome can’t mimic the percussive hit you feel in the chest when you’re near a kick drum. Or that learning slap without a teacher will likely only take slightly longer than with as it’s an easy technique to pick up and therefore not likely worth the cost to time ratio (this one isn’t really true nowadays considering how complex a technique slap has become, but it’s just an example).


FWIW I think there’s validity in lessons for every single possible thing for certain people as some people simply don’t learn what you would expect them to over time. There’s guys I’ve played with who’ve played for 40+ years who still have terrible time or are completely awkward not only in front of people but with bandmates as well. I’m not saying all of these things should be added to an academic curriculum because of this, but the help should still be there for those who need it.
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Great post! I just think that people can examine things that, on paper and under close inspection, can be dissected and found to not follow through in a logical way. But we aren't talking about philosophy. We are discussing the learning of an instrument. My thoughts are based entirely on becoming a better bass player. And I believe that I am experienced enough as a player and as an educated musician to see where bass players will have the best chances to acquire what many seem to want, which is to play well.

There are only two musical reasons that people chose to be in music.

1. To play music that is imagined or heard in one's mind and spirit.

2. To play music that they heard elsewhere.

That's the entirety of bass playing. I don't think that one can imagine a third reason why people chose to play an instrument. If this remains true, then I guarantee you that there is just as lean a manner to learn how to play, something that 100% of every bass player that 100% of everyone reading this experienced to become what they became; they practiced by being self taught and some added the learning of academic music to their musical day.

Even here, this is the entire of learning the bass.

Now, bass teachers today have changed this simple process and are offering to teach bass players most of the the subjects of bass that really are best done by being self taught. This is, to me, what has caused that great group of struggling bass players in 2018; no one tells them that they aren't learning correctly. I want to do this and suggest that improving doesn't require the extended over-thinking about the hows and whys of musical improvement. Your post is excellent. But I will suggest that you and others who (forgive me for this) seem to make a big deal out of a simple and logical Simon Sez experience should remember the words of the Nike commercials: Just Do It!
 
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