Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[JLW]

@JeffBerlin you mention that you think it's important to teach rhythmic elements of music. How might you teach rhythmic elements of music without a metronome or at least some kind of clap/beat?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I've been trying to come up with an honest answer for the title question, but it's really a stupor for me.. The closest thing I can think of would be something like sports (Yes, there's fact involved with a good bit of it), a lot of what I see taught (from grade school and beyond) is often passed down from experience. Like how to approach tackling someone in football. (I may be speaking completely from my ass here too) There's no real set guidelines, just certain techniques and ideas people have developed over the years and passed on to the kids/adults they're now coaching.
Besides that, my next best example would be something abstract like philosophy. (Another thing I have no real experience in, but can only assume it's hard to really teach such an idea in "facts")

 

[elkkid2]

Subscribed.

When I studied piano, as far as I can remember, I was never taught scales or chords individually, I learned that in another class, music theory. On the piano I always was taught by books, like Bach etudes, Mozart pieces, etc..

When I had bass lessons, I noticed that in the lessons, most of the times, I was playing modes, scales, that kind of thing. Very rarely music. Shouldn't this be the opposite?

For instance, shouldn't there be books with actual music (like in the piano) for bass? Exercises like the Bach Etudes? Wouldn't this be easier to learn the notes on the fretboard, by "osmosis" while playing the etudes, instead of trying to memorize it from a chord chart? I think it would.

Subscribed.

When I studied piano, as far as I can remember, I was never taught scales or chords individually, I learned that in another class, music theory. On the piano I always was taught by books, like Bach etudes, Mozart pieces, etc..

When I had bass lessons, I noticed that in the lessons, most of the times, I was playing modes, scales, that kind of thing. Very rarely music. Shouldn't this be the opposite?

For instance, shouldn't there be books with actual music (like in the piano) for bass? Exercises like the Bach Etudes? Wouldn't this be easier to learn the notes on the fretboard, by "osmosis" while playing the etudes, instead of trying to memorize it from a chord chart? I think it would.

Reading Trombone Music is good for that...it's Bass Clef and the lowest note on a Trombone, (regular Bone), is the low "E" on a regular four string Bass.

 

[elkkid2]

I'm glad you're back Jeff! We once shook hands at a music store in...Sherman Oaks? You were very nice to me...THANKS!

 

[phillybass101]

IMO playing in and keeping time is nothing more than paying attention. Practice with a metronome is in fact practicing to pay attention. Still once on stage you need a solid sense of time and have big ears and attention span to pay attention and play in time.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

If Jeff's goal is to inspire people to "aim higher" in learning/playing/music education (he said that was his only goal earlier in the thread), it clearly isn't working. He should revise his technique. I understand that he's a great player, but that doesn't mean he's great at inspiring people through his words to learn the instrument.

He'd probably be better off just showing off his playing and explaining how he learned all this stuff. Then people would make the connection themselves to copy his methods. Or not.

I think many peoples point is that music education can be any sort of education related to the playing/performing of music. Just because YOU didn't need to be taught a specific thing like grooving with a drummer or stage presence does not mean that others don't need to be taught it.

Additionally, there are many ways to learn, and being taught by a teacher is just one of many. Just because you were not taught by a teacher does not mean it isn't music education. I can guarantee you that something like stage presence or locking in with a drummer was something that you learned and was developed over time, whether it was taught to you by a teacher or you taught it to yourself. Want proof of this? Compare your first live performance to your most recent.

I'm quite inspired.. Both by what has been said, and the storm that's ensued around it.

 

[FantasticFour]

I have a question.
Let's say, a TB member, prior to "becoming/"on the way to becoming" a bass player, has been academically educated as (a) a piano player, a tuba player, a violin player, a sax player, etc... with all those Music theory, harmony, composition, etc... classes/courses.
Now, that academically-educated TB member decides to learn the bass guitar (it's easy, plus more gig possibilities).
That TB member does not want to go to some college to study the bass guitar, but wants to learn the bass guitar playing skills by asking questions, watching youtube, reading some tutorials.

Is that TB member a self-taught musician?
Is that TB member a self-taught bass player?

That TB member is me

 

[bench]

@JeffBerlin you mention that you think it's important to teach rhythmic elements of music. How might you teach rhythmic elements of music without a metronome or at least some kind of clap/beat?

has been answered multiple times... tap your foot. difference is: then you are not dominated by the external click and can analyze the rhythm and the melodic/harmonic content while reading and playing...

 

[J_Bass]

Reading Trombone Music is good for that...it's Bass Clef and the lowest note on a Trombone, (regular Bone), is the low "E" on a regular four string Bass.

Thank you!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That TB member is me

Who are you? Who, who, and wanna know....?
A self-taught musician?

Anyway.
Here is one of a very few most talented young musicians - Jaboc Collier - a singer, arranger, composer, producer, and multi-instrumentalist (and a very good bass player) based in London, England.
Jacob, who is mostly self-taught, has been creating music for all of his 23 years.




Here Jacob talks about Music Theory:







Would that extremely talented Musician - Jacob Collier could be a good teacher?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Who are you? Who, who, and wanna know....?
A self-taught musician?

Anyway.
Here is one of a very few most talented young musicians - Jaboc Collier - a singer, arranger, composer, producer, and multi-instrumentalist (and a very good bass player) based in London, England.
Jacob, who is mostly self-taught, has been creating music for all of his 23 years.




Here Jacob talks about Music Theory:







Would that extremely talented Musician - Jacob Collier could be a good teacher?

I've seen a couple interviews with this guy, and heard a few songs. Anything coming from Collier definitely is going to be on my radar in the coming future!

 

[elkkid2]

Thank you!

You bet! Come to think of it, if you play a 5 string Bass, you should be able to play Bass Trombone Music too!

 

[ObsessiveArcher]

I liked Victor Wooten's Ted Talk on this topic:


In middle and high school, I was taught how to play the alto and baritone saxophones. I learned how to read treble clef sheet music. I also have a basic understand of theory, such as scales, terminology, tempo, etc. I also learned how to play with other musicians and the song, i.e. not just play the notes. When I picked up a bass, I had quite a steep learning curve on how to play this specific instrument. I went straight to tab, because it was readily available and free. I am still retraining my brain to read bass clef. Also, there is a big change from reading off of sheet music to playing songs entirely from memory. To learn a song, I really like when someone posts a play along with a tab / sheet music fusion. This way I get the timing, and easy way to find the right notes. Regardless, I am still playing by ear to validate it is correct.

As a bass player, I think it definitely helps me to understand the fundamentals of music theory. I can play by ear, but it makes things easier and more consistent, if I can talk to my band mates with traditional music theory terminology. I also believe it is essential to apply the theory knowledge to playing. Otherwise, it's just academic and not music .

 

[JeffBerlin]

I'd never heard about people warming up before playing until a few months ago. When I first saw a video of someone doing "hand stretches" I though it was a joke!

It's not only serious, but some teachers teach it. A little light stretching if you like to do this doesn't require any video or teaching of any kind.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Academics can only take you so far... not having the academics takes less far. If you lack that, then it'll be pretty hard to truly get "artistic application of good taste".

I doubt JB is saying that there is nothing to be learned from playing, but rather that there IS something to be learned, something important to the performance of music, from some rigorous work-- work that a lot of people poo poo because, in reality, they just don't want to make all that effort, or are afraid to see if they can really do it or not.

Maybe they feel they are being criticized by Jeff Berlin, because he says that they are missing something important, that what they re doing is by itself inadequate to really gain proficiency on the bass, and who the hell is he to make them feel bad about being a slacker in school? One may not like it when their algebra teacher expects them to learn and apply equations, and sure, you can still add, subtract, multiply and divide without it, and that's still math... but it isn't algebra. Jussayin'... I'd laugh out loud if I ever heard a pianist say "I didn't feel I needed to learn theory." Why do so many bassists hold themselves to such a low standard?

RE: “Not having Academic takes you less” far assumes that academics have all the answers which obviously they don’t. While it may accelerate the learning process, it certainly isn’t the end all and be all. Where I disagree with the overall premise is as an intuitive learner, nothing brings lessons home like practical application.

Music is not rocket science. There is an undeniable logic to it. There aren’t that many logical combinations that the average bassist is going to have to learn. My experience with two years of music theory, what I got out of it was nomenclature for what I already knew and what when and where to apply it. I will say this, while that course work didn’t really make me a better player, it did make communication among players , composers, and arrangers a lot more efficient. So being honest, it wasn’t a waste of time and money, but what I got out of it wasn’t exactly what’s being sold here.

 

[JeffBerlin]

What would examples of "great ear training" be to you? This is one concept that's always alluded me when practicing.

Ear training is using the ear to identify certain elements of music. It is is best done in an organized manner and requires a teacher and a curriculum. If you can't find something like this, then transcribing music from CD's by either playing it verbatim on the bass or writing it down if you have the skill are great ear training methods.

 

[JeffBerlin]

It means spend more time playing bass and less time trying to understand jargon that is not related to playing bass

This made me laugh!!

 

[Drang22]

Nice discussion, and as usual lots of different opinions from us TB'ers.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the importance of actively listening to music (and specifically to great bassists). As Wynton Marcalis once said in a master class I attended (and I paraphrase heavily): "Music is an aural tradition; you have to have it in your head before it can come out your fingers".

 

[JeffBerlin]

I liked Victor Wooten's Ted Talk on this topic:


In middle and high school, I was taught how to play the alto and baritone saxophones. I learned how to read treble clef sheet music. I also have a basic understand of theory, such as scales, terminology, tempo, etc. I also learned how to play with other musicians and the song, i.e. not just play the notes. When I picked up a bass, I had quite a steep learning curve on how to play this specific instrument. I went straight to tab, because it was readily available and free. I am still retraining my brain to read bass clef. Also, there is a big change from reading off of sheet music to playing songs entirely from memory. To learn a song, I really like when someone posts a play along with a tab / sheet music fusion. This way I get the timing, and easy way to find the right notes. Regardless, I am still playing by ear to validate it is correct.

As a bass player, I think it definitely helps me to understand the fundamentals of music theory. I can play by ear, but it makes things easier and more consistent, if I can talk to my band mates with traditional music theory terminology. I also believe it is essential to apply the theory knowledge to playing. Otherwise, it's just academic and not music .

Language without learning how to read and write it produced the limited skills of the Appalachian people during the 1920's. Adults are literally unable to learn music as a language as a child does because their minds are different. The lecture, while interesting, is flawed because it doesn't apply to us.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

It's not only serious, but some teachers teach it. A little light stretching feels good and doesn't require any video or teaching of any kind. This is crazy to me.

I've seen some of this sites favorite YouTube instructors meandering about this more than once. That and the guy who wears the glove on his hand are a little too much for me. XD