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Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!
- Thread starter JeffBerlin
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@JeffBerlin Just to double down on my question and show that it was earnest... I thought I would offer a slight elaboration by saying that I perceive a depth of feeling in Zappa's instrumental work that is certainly not evident in his lyrics, much of which are intentionally juvenile... My petite bourgeois instinct is to psychoanalyze the guy and conclude, "Well, the music is his REAL sentiment and the lyric is a rather transparent defense mechanism."
But maybe he just knows how to tickle the strings? Because on one level, playing a guitar is a trick of manual dexterity, as you say.... Anyway, sorry, I realize this is off the line of the discussion proper, but your post about getting all the "ducks in a row" and harmonizing effortlessly like pumpin' chakras led me back to this question about Zappa, it haunts me, I tell ya!
But maybe he just knows how to tickle the strings? Because on one level, playing a guitar is a trick of manual dexterity, as you say.... Anyway, sorry, I realize this is off the line of the discussion proper, but your post about getting all the "ducks in a row" and harmonizing effortlessly like pumpin' chakras led me back to this question about Zappa, it haunts me, I tell ya!
People have different levels of "efficiency" in HOW they learn to imitate what they hear.
You're conflating the purpose/goal (imitating what we hear) with the method of acquiring that ability.
When learning a language - the goal/purpose is to be able to communicate, but the fastest/easiest way to achieve that goal is different for different people.
Is there honestly any point to this discussion? It's gonna go on for 500 pages with nothing of worth or use having been said. Just annoyingly random opinions. There's no takeaway.
It is a skill, if you want to do it professionally, that needs to be learned/practiced in context....the least effective 'cooks' are those that graduate from a college or academic program without real world practice....they just can't hack it....give me a kid trained at McDs or Carl's Jr...I can teach him to make higher quality food in a professional setting, because he already has skills in setting (blues jams for example...he already feels the drummer even if just playing roots)
The 'insert other profession here' being retrained as a cook or the 'everyone loves my meatball recipe' types just can't deal in real pressure situations ( guy who can play dream theatre songs note for note but can't get through a 12 bar progression with two other live humans...) Very different skill sets methinks....
I am glad that you caught sight of this. Sometimes I wonder why this takes place? I often offer to people to research their claims (or mine) and report what they find. But, few have. I would like to invite people to look up my first statement and see what you discover for yourselves. It will cut through the "what if's" and "what about's" and get to the core of what is real about learning. Here goes for my first claim!
There is only two ways to learn how to play.
1. Being self taught and including everythin embraced and used to learn and play by.
2. Being taught academic music based in written content.
There isn't a third option as far as I can tell.
Look into this and share if you feel that this statement is wrong and needs amending. Don't comment about it at all. Just provide something concrete to indicate my error in thinking. I could be wrong. What do you find to show this?
Michael Schreiber
Commercial User
I thought this was also about composing own music... and to develop an own style.
Or is this thread exclusively about learning to play covers?
@JeffBerlin
Sorry, prof, but I reduced my question to a simple, universal one: You may have to be able to hear it to play it...
But do you have to be able to feel it?
Sorry, prof, but I reduced my question to a simple, universal one: You may have to be able to hear it to play it...
But do you have to be able to feel it?
I gave you a like, Michael, as it is nice see ya!
I understand what you are saying. We all learn from other people and there situations.
The term "self taught" relates to what we decide to embrace and trust. In vocational schools, students don't decide this. They are taught what is what. In being self taught, people are told that "this scale" or "that amp" are great. But since you aren't beholden to graduate or fulfill the academic requirements stated by a school or teacher, you can decide for yourself what you want to do about every single aspect of your musical life. This is being self taught!
I feel that everyone feels what they play or else they wouldn't have chosen music as their art. Sometimes a listener doesn't pick up on the players' feeling their music and state that there isn't any. But they aren't inside this person's head and don't know what he is experiencing.
Michael Schreiber
Commercial User
Nice to see you, too - Happy New Year!
Your question is very interesting.
As for myself I was always convinced that of course one needs to feel the music in order to play it.
Until I heard an orchestra player after a great concert sighing about how he dislikes Wagner
Really astonished me. I didn't believe it would be possible to play in such passionately seeming way if not even liking the music. Same, btw. about a singer, Alexandra, whom I liked listen to since childhood and about whom I read way later, that one of her most famous songs she strongly refused to sing, and only gave in because her label insisted... I don't want to know what she did feel while having to sing that song - nevertheless, she sang it flawlessly and convincing. Like an actor can play a murderer without being one? Maybe
It is for some who are open to improving their music. I'm sitting at a keyboard sharing my thoughts with a lot of people that don't wish to hear them. This is OK because mixed into this group are some that do.
The knock against me is that I criticize the system that many rely on. I don't do this to cause harm. I do this to cause change!
Precisely! I know that some will find offense in my thoughts. This isn't my intention at all as I never, not ever, discuss one's art. I never mention the artists that they listen to that give them pleasure. In this case, whatever one chooses out of music that gives them joy is a great thing.
My entire point is about the emotionless reality of learning. I critique the manner of learning and I object to the bass system that promotes it. I don't name names and I reject when people predict who they think that I am talking about. I make every effort to be as general about the system and only name it as "schools" not XXXXX or "bass teachers" not XXXXXX.
Bass education is, in my opinion a failed experiment unless music is being taught exclusively to students. I don't subscribe to the notion that certain methods worked for certain people (in general) because one has to know how a thing works to actually know if they have gotten a benefit from it.
I love people and I love music. I love to help bass players if they are willing to accept it. If they aren't, then of course this is one's personal choice.
Like an actor can play a murderer without being one? Maybe
Exactly.
I saw Oasis from the front row at Staples Center (I think?) and was close enough to guitarist Noel Gallagher was so bored on stage that he was near falling asleep. He'd do these big, raunchy, descending power slides on the round wound E string, then stifle a yawn down his shirt sleeve at the end. The music sounded fine, but he couldn't have been feeling it less.
Another funny one is 25 years old, but my Dad's buddy, an avid "antiquer," met Tom Waits in a curio shop and got to gabbing. Buddy finally asked Tom, innocently and without ill intent, why Tom did not speak the way he sings. "Oh, that's just an act," Tom said blithely.
Nice to see you, too - Happy New Year!
Your question is very interesting.
As for myself I was always convinced that of course one needs to feel the music in order to play it.
Until I heard an orchestra player after a great concert sighing about how he dislikes Wagner
Really astonished me. I didn't believe it would be possible to play in such passionately seeming way if not even liking the music. Same, btw. about a singer, Alexandra, whom I liked listen to since childhood and about whom I read way later, that one of her most famous songs she strongly refused to sing, and only gave in because her label insisted... I don't want to know what she did feel while having to sing that song - nevertheless, she sang it flawlessly and convincing. Like an actor can play a murderer without being one? Maybe
If people have been trained to do something, they can do it well, without even enjoying it. That's what being a professional means. It's not only possible, it's done all the time. Music is just something people do. It's not magic or rocket science.
I think this too doesn't exist really, if thought through.
Learning without any guidance at all...I doubt that very much.
I would say, NO, because on one side we have an accomplished Musician/Composer/Arranger/Bass player/Teacher, etc...
with decades of knowledgeable experience, with lots of records, concerts all over the world,
and
on the other side, we have some "cute" TB nicknames, "beautiful" avatars, etc...
Thank you! But, in defense of some people, they haven't read my thoughts. There's a lot going on here. But, you got it completely.
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