Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[lfmn16]

OK I'll bite. Whilst the role of the teacher is primarily concerned with the presentation of facts, it does not, IMHO, stop there.

The teacher can/should also create learning opportunities, or facilitate a journey of exploration, self-discovery and confirmation. After all isn't that what pre-school education is all about. In my personal experience, things I have researched, questionned and/or worked out for myself tend to stick better, especially if I can later affirm what I think I've learned with someone who knows, either by direct discussion or further correlation. So a good teacher provides the student with a way of learning...
Instead of "using the information discussed in class, analyse this passage with respect to how the walking bass creates various chord inversions at the cadences.", try "analyse this passage with respect to how the walking bass creates various chord inversions and note any other points of harmony you think might be significant."

+1

IMHO a good teacher will teach you how to teach yourself and eventually become more of a coach than a teacher.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Here is my point:
If you decide to learn by paying a teacher, school, website, I suggest that you ONLY do this to learn how to read music or to study harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic concepts. If these things are not the very center of what you are paying to learn, then I suggest that you find a jazz teacher (even if jazz is not your musical goal) and study with them.

As a self taught player, anything and everything that crosses your path is worthy of consideration even if it isn't always worthy of embracing. But know that this kind of approach to playing isn't reliable. Being taught musical content is, which is why i encourage bass players to make sure that they are only taught this way. Teachers aren't always looking out for you. We tend to embrace our own beliefs and hold tightly to them even if they might not be beneficial to our students.

In other words, you're encouraging students to rely less on what one teacher (or school) might say is "useful" - and to explore other paths, as well; to grow up as musician, to emancipate; if I understand correctly. Feels to me as if that should be part of academic education, anyway. As in gardening and landscaping; where it's tradition to wander from master to master to learn as much as can and sieve what's useful to oneself.

 

[5thsand4ths]

@JeffBerlin can you recommend any good online music courses that follow your approach to learning?

Based on the timing of this thread the location shouldn't be hard to find.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I just don't believe that anything anywhere is taught "in time." Except, unfortunately, the electric bass guitar.

Are you sure? My guess is that guitar, drums and maybe even piano/keyboards probably also suffer from this to some degree.

 

[SteveCS]

+1

IMHO a good teacher will teach you how to teach yourself and eventually become more of a coach than a teacher.

I didn't want to use the word coach or mentor as it would probably spark some semsntic argument over the definition of teacher, but yes!!!

 

[bench]

How do you think a metronome prevents you from doing this??

I guess I don't get the whole problem some people have with metronomes. It's like any other tool - use it when you need it; it's not good for everything.

if you practice something like playing some kind of study from sheet or a chord tone exercise (or whatever...) there's likely gonna be passages that are easier and parts where you might get stuck and need a second (or third or fourth) look. if you have a metronome ticking away on the downbeats (or two and four...) you would have to reset and adapt to the click again. if you tap your foot you can continue playing by simply slowing down on the harder sections while still keeping the rhythmic relation to the downbeats intact.

 

[matthewbrown]

Music experience is certainly subjective. The learning of it in an academic manner isn't. This is the point that I feel that you are missing.

That's a false dichotomy. Every experience is subjective, including the experience of learning. If this were not so, then there would not be different musical traditions with wildly different pedagogical approaches. Any qualified educator takes into account what the student brings to the lesson, or as much of it as is possible to know. You might want to read up on educational psychology.

 

[Herrick]

Based on the timing of this thread the location shouldn't be hard to find.

Yeah I missed the obvious when I did a search a little while ago. -1 for Herrick.

 

[lfmn16]

I didn't want to use the word coach or mentor as it would probably spark some semsntic argument over the definition of teacher, but yes!!!

This is TalkBass. We love to argue over inconsequential semantics!!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I'm no slough. I'd consider myself fairly accomplished. But what are we even talking about here? Or any of these other threads? Play bass.

But does it djent?

 

[PaulReside]

On Zappa and Jaco

Sure he tickled the strings with joy. Sure he's a self taught musician with a musical vision. There are many ways to learn, but most of them don't work for most people. Not in your case, but when people mention, say, Jaco Pastorius' self taught brilliance,

and this seems to be a problem I see many players having, Frank and Jaco were not "normal" musicians. Both had a type genius which granted them the ability to intuitively look at problems from a different angle than the average musician. Also, after having read some biographies on both of them, they studied MUSIC, one just happened to be a guitarist and the other a bassist. This falls right in line with what I think Jeff is trying to say. They both studied theory away from the primary instrument they became known for, and if asked I bet both would want to have been thought of as composers rather than players. The art of understanding music is not studied on a chair with a music stand, bass and metronome at the ready.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Are you sure? My guess is that guitar, drums and maybe even piano/keyboards probably also suffer from this to some degree.

I didn't want to make a big thing about of it, but I already knew this. It basically seems to add up to the fact that contemporary instruments are taught in abysmal ways. You are right in what you say.

If you look at the brass, strings, and all instruments orchestral and classical, and if you look at the history of how all instruments were taught, you won't have to dig too deeply to discover that it was, and still is, entirely based upon the reading and practice of musical content.

Bass players believe that whatever works for them is a reliable mantra for learning. But if someone doesn't hasn't learned how music actually works off their bass, then they really don't have anything to compare their playing ability to except by what they hear off of recordings. This goes back to being self taught as the only other way to learn how to play. I just don't see how bass players are so willing to trust their musical futures to methods and philosophers of learning that simply have no precedence nor even musical validity. It baffles me how some are willing to invest their whole musical thing on principles of learning that have little to no validity. I am here to suggest that there is a better way to guarantee one's playing improvement, but you have to want it.

 

[JeffBerlin]

OK I'll bite. Whilst the role of the teacher is primarily concerned with the presentation of facts, it does not, IMHO, stop there.

You are absolutely right! It doesn't stop there! It BEGINS there! And this is where I feel that bass educators are not qualified to teach unless music itself is the central aspect of their teaching philosophy.

 

[Wasnex]

C is treble cleff though? Were musicians here not bass players remember!! Lol

Edit: Will leave this for others to laugh at me. Meant to say Bass Real Book!

Edit of edit: I still think Eb real book would work just fine after second-second guessing myself. Just think of that treble cleff as a bass cleff.

IMHO the majority of pro bassist who rely on this resource will use the C version to learn the changes and read treble clef to learn the melody. I find it harder to transpose than directly read treble clef.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Maybe! Maybe not! He's a product of his genius.

He is genius (!) but for my solid education I would not be using his personal teaching "postulates".

 

[JeffBerlin]

That's a false dichotomy. Every experience is subjective, including the experience of learning. If this were not so, then there would not be different musical traditions with wildly different pedagogical approaches. Any qualified educator takes into account what the student brings to the lesson, or as much of it as is possible to know. You might want to read up on educational psychology.

Some have named Suzuki as a method of learning, which it is. It just doesn't apply to adults. With this example, I would invite you to name some of the wildly different pedagogical approaches you are thinking of. Thanks.

 

[JeffBerlin]

In other words, you're encouraging students to rely less on what one teacher (or school) might say is "useful" - and to explore other paths, as well; to grow up as musician, to emancipate; if I understand correctly. Feels to me as if that should be part of academic education, anyway. As in gardening and landscaping; where it's tradition to wander from master to master to learn as much as can and sieve what's useful to oneself.

My belief is that if anyone invests in learning from a teacher or a school where musical content is not the first, foremost, and central aspect of one's training, then, you are investing poorly.

 

[JeffBerlin]

This is TalkBass. We love to argue over inconsequential semantics!!

I've seen this too. There's a chance for a real positive awareness in musical perspective to happen here but arguing over the "what about's" and "what if's" seems to count more. I don't understand this.

 

[Drgonzonm]

You misunderstand how music is notated for most woodwinds and brass.

The clarinet is what is called a transposing instrument. When I was taught clarinet as a child I learned how to play a C, a D, etc. But if I played in unison along with a piano, when I played a C the pianist would play Bb. If you pick up an alto sax (Eb instrument) and a tenor sax (Bb instrument) the fingering for a "C" is the same for both. But the note that is heard is not the same. If you look at charts written out for a band, you will see that when you the bassist are reading a key signature of C, the alto player will be reading a key signature of A and the tenor player a key signature of D. You will often hear horn players talking about "concert key" by which they mean the real key they are playing in, not what is written on the page.

Sure I can read out of a book for Eb or Bb transposing instruments and ignore the transpositions but I will be learning and playing it in the wrong key. No reason to deliberately do that that I can think of.

I hope I did not misunderstand you. As a bass player, I am not limited to playing one step out of tune. As stated, the staff says c but Bb is actually played. I have all 12 notes in an octave available, more if I playing fretless. No need to state each instrament has a different standard, if that's a way to get roots thirds, fifths, and seventh played, so be it. But as a bassist, I have the choice

 

[zon6c-f]

I studied Simandl Method from a symphonic master and stopped because
I had difficulty reading some of the more advanced studies

I wish I had known how to explain that I knew how to play bass.... I was severely lacking in music theory

Later I was introduced to a great book: Basic Materials in Music Theory but I had lost interest in string bass and so I studied Theory on my own

As I had no instructor to guide me I eventually lost interest in my independent studies as well

To this day I can read simple lines but when I have to stop and think out loud a complex syncopation in time I am lost

With all of the books I own I should be able to read music as well as I read English however I don’t

I’m pretty sure we ALL know the mechanics of playing electric bass ... how to tune and get a good sound from our basses but when we are with educated musicians most of us feel intimidated and thus musically illiterate at least I do

Play by ear? Certainly Explain in musical terms what we just played ? Most of us can’t

I think what Jeff is explaining [ by way of provocatively making us Think] is that we need to learn the language of music or Music Theory

An analogy: Of course we can drive our vehicles but how about changing your own oil and filter , replacing a light bulb or fuse or knowing by sound of the transmission that there may be trouble ahead ....