Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Quinn Roberts]

So like I asked, what is the point? I could use a summary.

Well it was implied in the title. But a hurricane came a rippin' from his last thread, lol.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Interesting how hard it is to find anything that isn't taught factually. This is important to relate to how one chooses to be taught the bass. Realize that there is always practice sessions in sports. And philosophy classes requires the reading and discussion of philosophical points of view, an academic undertaking. I just don't believe that anything anywhere is taught "in time." Except, unfortunately, the electric bass guitar.

One has to walk before they run.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Well said. My guts tend to disagree, because to me (as listener), music is always about feelings.
And I want to have that freedom when trying to make music.

However, I know that this is not important to many listeners - otherwise, no one would like the early works of Mozart, in which he had to hold back his creativity and meet the expectations of his contractor. I agree, that is a very professional approach.

And I can imagine that some misunderstandings here in this thread may come from a different point of view or understanding what music would be or mean - or, even worse, what one thinks music should mean.

Food for thought, maybe that's just the listener looking for something that was never really there to begin with.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I didn't imagine it would be that bad at an academy.
At least in my case your point is true; without musical content, I wouldn't have had any motivation to even listen to my music teachers at school; nor would I have nowadays at an academy. Might work for others, though - I am in no position to judge for others.

In my opinion, bass players get out of schools and most end up where they started, back in bars. At least this is what many that have written me have said. I certainly can accept that maybe an improvement in one's working situation wasn't the goal for attending a school. I really don't know! Or maybe some feel that learning a variety of different concepts was beneficial to their playing. I've mentioned to people who were interested that this wasn't a good way to improve one's playing.

I mean no harm and I mean to not criticize just for the sake of it. My problem (and it is mine) is that there is a proven method to improve one's playing and many bass players seem not interested in getting straight into the kind of work that WILL improve every aspect of their playing and understanding of music. I guess this question might be in order as I really don't know the answer, although I suspect that I do:

1. Are you earning more money having been qualified to play in better gigs?

2. Are you more aware of music itself?

3. Is your ear improved to where you can play what you hear in your head or off CD's?

4. Are you playing better from the bass studies you were given? If so, how?

These are just questions that I would ask if I was going to invest a lot of money hoping for either musical improvement or a bump in career. They are just for thought. The answers that one arrives at can either justify or not justify the tens of thousands of dollars that some have paid to attend music schools worldwide.

 

[Wasnex]

Personally I feel a lot of what is being stated needs to be taken with a grain of sand here. On top of that, and I don't want to sound rude or disrespectful, but this concept that Mr. Berlin is some sort of God that posses knowledge that is far beyond anyone's mortal reasoning here is just simply ASININE!

No disrespect taken or intended.

Yes, you should take this with a grain of salt. But in truth, Mr Berlin's level of knowledge is far beyond many of us. This is not asinine, it's intentionally exaggerated to make a point that it is difficult for people to relate when they are at drastically different levels of performance and ability. If you want to inspire someone you have to push them to achieve something they are capable of achieving rather than focusing on lofty goals that are far beyond them. I am certain I could comprehend much more of Mr Berlins knowledge, but I lack the discipline and motivation to achieve his level of performance through self study. Personally it would be more helpful to hear how Mr Berlin approaches theory and the type of mental short hand he uses to organize/manage his thoughts and knowledge, as opposed to so much on his philosophy which many of us seem to disagree with. But this is not my thread and Mr Berlin may discuss any subject he chooses.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think the point is, Mr Berlin is frustrated with courses like this:

In this rhythm based course, we take you through exactly how you can turbo charge your bass lines, grooves, time-feel, and overall mastery of the bass​

And is hoping to encourage everyone to concentrate more on fundamental music elements, primarily reading

That is my takeaway from this. If you want to really learn, you need to read and practice reading by playing musical pieces based on traditional harmonic concepts. The rest will fall into place as you progress.

The problem is that the message is so simple, it is easy to ignore.

I don't know where this ad came from, and to protect a business (not wishing to embarrass anyone or call attention to anyone by name) I do not wish to know.

But, in my opinion, this statement already shows me that learning isn't possible here because there's no mention of teaching bass players the very things that create bass mastery. This seems focused on performance not learning which are two different principles. Anticipating the responses that might come from this comment, history shows that (as a thumbnail answer) we best learn how to perform and groove by doing it, not being taught how to do it. 100% or every bass player that everyone admires, including 100% of all bass players that teach groove or performance have somehow figured out how to play live but weren't taught these things for money. I always had the thought that if my teachers learned how to play on their own then what is different about me that I can't figure out the same things.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Don’t be offended by it. Remember that “what abouts” and “what ifs” are the keystones to keeping an open mind, and if finding truth is really a goal, these questions need to constantly be asked. Imagine where modern medicine would be now if people weren’t constantly asking “what if there was a better way to heal this” and just stuck to the path that they thought worked best based on previous experience and tested academia. Your local pharmacy would have no penicillin and would be selling a whole lot more leeches.

Good point! My reason for raising this point is because some regard the "what if's" as what is. Asking "what if" or what about" seems to be proof that there is a flaw in another perspective of learning and this isn't true for the most part.

 

[JeffBerlin]

You've stated this repeatedly. Saying it more times doesn't make it true.

The Suzuki method is used to teach both children and adults successfully.

Is it? I just knew that it was designed for children. In my view, teaching an adult with the same method that one teaches a child makes me wonder why this happens. Still, thank you for sharing.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Food for thought, maybe that's just the listener looking for something that was never really there to begin with.

Bull's eye
You are very right - that is what I learned, as well.
At least when it comes to professional players and singers, I concluded for myself that it matters not really; as long as the music reaches me through their performance, and they seem to take the effort seriously, not making fun of me and my feelings.

Yet, I still have my illusions about composers that are independent enough to afford writing the music as they feel it right; like Beethoven or Joe DeMaio from ManOwaR - both also seem stubborn enough, so I feel comfy trusting them

If unsure, I find myself listening as if through a safety barrier; not letting the music mess with my emotions unless I trust the composer. May sound silly, but that's the outcome of having once been a Queen fan (as German kid) until being able to "understand" English well enough to understand that I did understand almost nothing of their music. I felt betrayed and manipulated. Since then, I don't let music enter my inner self that easily, anymore. However, I still appreciate the technical level and the player's performance - even in Queen's songs
Just as side note - sorry, if that was too off-topic.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I think you are assuming that a musician is always "projecting" some kind of feeling to you during a performance, simply because you happen to feel something from the music. That's not nearly always the case. In most of those cases when you "feel" something, you are just reacting to someone who is good at what he does. It's no more complicated than that

This video has always intrigued me from day one. He's basically implying an emotion with each note. Plus, this being a teaching/workshop environment is a good example I feel of someone obviously putting zero emotion into their playing.

 

[JeffBerlin]

No disrespect taken or intended.

Yes, you should take this with a grain of salt. But in truth, Mr Berlin's level of knowledge is far beyond many of us. This is not asinine, it's intentionally exaggerated to make a point that it is difficult for people to relate when they are at drastically different levels of performance and ability. If you want to inspire someone you have to push them to achieve something they are capable of achieving rather than focusing on lofty goals that are far beyond them. I am certain I could comprehend much more of Mr Berlins knowledge, but I lack the discipline and motivation to achieve his level of performance through self study. Personally it would be more helpful to hear how Mr Berlin approaches theory and the type of mental short hand he uses to organize/manage his thoughts and knowledge, as opposed to so much on his philosophy which many of us seem to disagree with. But this is not my thread and Mr Berlin may discuss any subject he chooses.

I guess that my first point is that I never stated that I am superior to anyone. Why do people sometimes regard confidence in one's knowledge or ability an arrogant thing?

 

[Michael Schreiber]

In my opinion, bass players get out of schools and most end up where they started, back in bars. At least this is what many that have written me have said. I certainly can accept that maybe an improvement in one's working situation wasn't the goal for attending a school. I really don't know! Or maybe some feel that learning a variety of different concepts was beneficial to their playing. I've mentioned to people who were interested that this wasn't a good way to improve one's playing.

I mean no harm and I mean to not criticize just for the sake of it. My problem (and it is mine) is that there is a proven method to improve one's playing and many bass players seem not interested in getting straight into the kind of work that WILL improve every aspect of their playing and understanding of music. I guess this question might be in order as I really don't know the answer, although I suspect that I do:

1. Are you earning more money having been qualified to play in better gigs?

2. Are you more aware of music itself?

3. Is your ear improved to where you can play what you hear in your head or off CD's?

4. Are you playing better from the bass studies you were given? If so, how?

These are just questions that I would ask if I was going to invest a lot of money hoping for either musical improvement or a bump in career. They are just for thought. The answers that one arrives at can either justify or not justify the tens of thousands of dollars that some have paid to attend music schools worldwide.

I agree, and find your approach very constructive / useful.
Even for part time greenhorn musicians as me - or even if I didn't aim for paid gigs; there'd still be that urge... can't find a better word; there'd still be that urge that drives me to find ways to a) seek new goals, and b) ways to reach them. Just ways; well knowing they never may end. Simply because that's what my idols did and kept on doing.

Personally, from a student's perspective, I find your questions helpful to check how self-deluded or blinded I might be;
To compare my impression and vision of myself as writer and player with the actual status quo.

So, nothing wrong with your approach, in my opinion. Au contraire, a useful toolset for your students to find out where they actually stand.

EDIT: Corrected "nothing from" to "nothing wrong"

 

[Wasnex]

add a line to the top staff in treble, so you have a six line staff, you have both treble and bass shown. If your extra line is a different color it's even easier The trick doesn't work for c clef.

There's another trick for C Clef that I have used long ago.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Bull's eye
You are very right - that is what I learned, as well.
At least when it comes to professional players and singers, I concluded for myself that it matters not really; as long as the music reaches me through their performance, and they seem to take the effort seriously, not making fun of me and my feelings.

Yet, I still have my illusions about composers that are independent enough to afford writing the music as they feel it right; like Beethoven or Joe DeMaio from ManOwaR - both also seem stubborn enough, so I feel comfy trusting them

If unsure, I find myself listening as if through a safety barrier; not letting the music mess with my emotions unless I trust the composer. May sound silly, but that's the outcome of having once been a Queen fan (as German kid) until being able to "understand" English well enough to understand that I did understand almost nothing of their music. I felt betrayed and manipulated. Since then, I don't let music enter my inner self that easily, anymore. However, I still appreciate the technical level and the player's performance - even in Queen's songs
Just as side note - sorry, if that was too off-topic.

Reminds me of something an older musician friend of mine once said to me. When it comes to your music, who decides if it is good or bad? And I know the answer surprised me, but looking back on it, it's very much the truth. It's the listener who ultimately decides whether or not a piece is of value or not. Whether or not something may be one's cup of tea, everyone can see and accept greatness (even when they don't want to admit it). Take AC/DC for example, I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that if I never heard Hell's Bells again in my life I wouldn't be too upset, but can I still see that it's a mother****** of a guitar song? Well Hell yeah! Would I rather listen to Mahavishnu Orchestra than Enya? Duh... Is Enya's music gorgeous though? You bet!! These are all examples of musicians who can put emotion into what they're playing. Now where does that emotion come from is the real question, is it from their heart's and souls? Well the child in me wants to say yes, but the logistical says that they all are just skilled musicians that know exactly what they are doing when composing their pieces. And it shows, play me some classic rock radio for one hour and tell me you won't hear AC/DC, go to a pawn shop and tell me you won't find at least ten plus Enya cd's lying there.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I agree, and find your approach very constructive / useful.
Even for part time greenhorn musicians as me - or even if I didn't aim for paid gigs; there'd still be that urge... can't find a better word; there'd still be that urge that drives me to find ways to a) seek new goals, and b) ways to reach them. Just ways; well knowing they never may end. Simply because that's what my idols did and kept on doing.

Personally, from a student's perspective, I find your questions helpful to check how self-deluded or blinded I might be;
To compare my impression and vision of myself as writer and player with the actual status quo.

So, nothing from with your approach, in my opinion. Au contraire, a useful toolset for your students to find out where they actually stand.

I like your post and appreciate your openness to a little straight talk. It isn't done for arrogance or ego or superiority or because I am a God (as some think that I feel about myself.) I am a guy with am academic background in music that few bass players have had. That's all! I'm not better than anyone nor a better bass player than anyone. I simply know music and how to cut years off of one's learning life. But, you have to want this for yourself. It is always up to people to choose their own musical paths.

If my views seem offensive to people, ignore me. I mean no harm. There are lots of other learning options for people to choose if this is their wish.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I like your post and appreciate your openness to a little straight talk. It isn't done for arrogance or ego or superiority or because I am a God (as some think that I feel about myself.) I am a guy with a background in music that an extreme few bass players have. That's all! I'm not better than anyone nor a better bass player than anyone. I simply know music and how to cut years off of one's learning life. But, you have to want this for yourself. It is always up to people to choose their own musical paths.

If my views seem offensive to people, ignore me. I mean no harm. There are lots of other learning options for people to choose if this is their wish.

aaah, I am sorry, I had a huge typo in my post at the end; wanted to write that I see "nothing wrong" (not "nothing from") with your approach. Corrected that. Sorry for that mistake - I guess, it is bed-time for me; already past midnight here

 

[Quinn Roberts]

In other words, you're encouraging students to rely less on what one teacher (or school) might say is "useful" - and to explore other paths, as well; to grow up as musician, to emancipate; if I understand correctly. Feels to me as if that should be part of academic education, anyway. As in gardening and landscaping; where it's tradition to wander from master to master to learn as much as can and sieve what's useful to oneself.

I would of thought this would be more common in music than anything else (starting to realize this isn't the case though)... It's sure been my approach, why learn from one when you can learn from everyone?

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Reminds me of something an older musician friend of mine once said to me. When it comes to your music, who decides if it is good or bad? And I know the answer surprised me, but looking back on it, it's very much the truth. It's the listener who ultimately decides whether or not a piece is of value or not. Whether or not something may be one's cup of tea, everyone can see and accept greatness (even when they don't want to admit it). Take AC/DC for example, I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that if I never heard Hell's Bells again in my life I wouldn't be too upset, but can I still see that it's a mother****** of a guitar song? Well Hell yeah! Would I rather listen to Mahavishnu Orchestra than Enya? Duh... Is Enya's music gorgeous though? You bet!! These are all examples of musicians who can put emotion into what they're playing. Now where does that emotion come from is the real question, is it from their heart's and souls? Well the child in me wants to say yes, but the logistical says that they all are just skilled musicians that know exactly what they are doing when composing their pieces. And it shows, play me some classic rock radio for one hour and tell me you won't hear AC/DC, go to a pawn shop and tell me you won't find at least ten plus Enya cd's lying there.

Haha, thank you for that post - I so much can relate to what you expressed!
Also what I read between the lines; that even professional music can be divided into music one would not want to miss, and expendable music (like being OK with listening to Thunderstruck instead of Hell's Bells), while both apparently do have their reason to exist. I also know the child in me likes to believe that (let's call them) "Evergreens" have something magical about them that cannot be faked or even industrialised - while at the same time, even "popular" / industrialized music can be awesome; as maybe AC/DC; sounds to me as if they found a working recipe and stuck to that - still, it rocks! Or to consider my metal heros ManOwaR: One of their well known songs (Kings of Metal) is technically boring - yet, it works, maybe exactly because of that; not being pretentious, just delivering what needs being served

 

[Drgonzonm]

There's another trick for C Clef that I have used long ago.

and?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I guess that my first point is that I never stated that I am superior to anyone. Why do people sometimes regard confidence in one's knowledge or ability an arrogant thing?

Maybe, some people are just jealous? (Did I say it? )