Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Fun Size Nick]

You are not cynical or come across as such to anyone that understands how capitalism and selling works.
I can't fault Jeff operating within the established framework. The only thing matters is if the product is great or crap.

As far as I can tell, he's not operating entirely within the established framework (i.e. the Talkbass Commercial User Policy) that other commercial users here at Talkbass operate within. I think it's important, if Jeff's discussing music education here, that we all are completely aware that he's running a music education business. This is not to place less value on Jeff's contributions, any more than (for example) the knowledge that Agedhorse works for Mesa/Boogie devalues any of his excellent contributions regarding amplifiers.

 

[Joe Nerve]

As far as I can tell, he's not operating entirely within the established framework (i.e. the Talkbass Commercial User Policy) that other commercial users here at Talkbass operate within. I think it's important, if Jeff's discussing music education here, that we all are completely aware that he's running a music education business. This is not to place less value on Jeff's contributions, any more than (for example) the knowledge that Agedhorse works for Mesa/Boogie devalues any of his excellent contributions regarding amplifiers.

Lots of bass players here give lessons. There's an option to post that information in our profiles if we want to.

 

[JeffBerlin]

…..and now I think about it…I never saw a metronome. My teacher would occasionally count aloud if I was obviously slowing down in a more difficult section, but I set my own tempo. “This piece is quick”, or this “piece is played slowly with expression” or the “Allegro” at the top of the sheet was the only guide. It was never "play this at a steady 96bpm with a click". I’ve never had any trouble playing with a tight band or “locking in” with my drummers despite this lack of click training.

Precisely! Your ability to play in time was never connected with a metronome. It was connected with our knowledge of the music, instrument and musical experience. This is where good time comes from.

I know that bass players believe that metronomes are mandatory in practice. But, they aren't! It is a myth of music to believe that one's internal sense of time is influenced by a box that clicks and neither speeds up nor slows down. Your experience might help to validate this for people. I hope so!

 

[JeffBerlin]

As far as I can tell, he's not operating entirely within the established framework (i.e. the Talkbass Commercial User Policy) that other commercial users here at Talkbass operate within. I think it's important, if Jeff's discussing music education here, that we all are completely aware that he's running a music education business.

Be quiet and stop talking nonsense, please! I never bring up my music courses because I am not here for this. When people ask me about them, I don't discuss them. I would appreciate it if you and other would stop making up silly conclusions and acting as if they are true.

 

[JeffBerlin]

You know, until I heard that Jeff disliked metronomes, I never gave it thought. But, my experience has been that playing to metronomes or to music (the same as a metronome, really) never gave me a better sense of time.

It is important that people read your comments. If they would like to improve their time, it is a great thing to recognize where it comes from.

Imagine cooking a brand new dish and reading the instructions on how to cook it. Everyone is "out of time" in regards to organizing the ingredients and preparing the meal. Then imagine cooking the same dish several times. There's no detailed thinking about how to cook the food. You just do it because you've already practiced the steps before.

As bass players, you have to add one extra component to this example by putting an instrument into the mix. Plus, an in-time function in music is different than an in-time preparation of food. But the experience is still the same; you function "in-time" when you learn the steps and know what to do before you even start.

Now, add (say) a year's study of practicing reading music coupled with the study of harmonic exercises. After a year of this, you have practiced major and minor and dominant sounds in different keys. You have read music where the same ones are repeated all the time, just in different order. You have been involved in a focused daily regard of all the elements in music that you probably will find in almost every contemporary style of bass playing you will come across. But, by this time, you've been so familiar with the more challenging elements of musical study (even while still jamming and playing with people during that same year) you should discover that there isn't anything that crosses your musical path that is a challenge to you. Hence, you will be so familiar with music AND instrument that your sense a time, something that must be your musical legacy for having learned correctly, should be just about perfect and will remain so for the rest of your lives.

 

[JeffBerlin]

There are legitimate reasons to sometimes "isolate" certain parts of an activity for extra training.

Can you share how plucking your bass strings without having a musical reason for doing so will help you to pluck those strings when a musical reason comes up?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Do you have a set sequence in learning material or specific concepts as part of the way you teach music? i.e. Is there a rigid curriculum?

Sorry, but I can't discuss this here! I think that this might violate how Talkbass prefers that its contributors function with people.

 

[Plake]

... I would appreciate it if you and other would stop making up silly conclusions and acting as if they are true.

Solid advice.....for all.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff, I first became aware of some of these thoughts of yours on a video of you in a one on one teaching session. I found it very compelling and persuasive. I too found that when I practiced with the metronome, everything else took second place to the tyranny of that click. If I got off time, I felt I had made a mistake and had to start over to get it right even if there was no musical error (i.e. in note reading). I'm not ready to say the metronome has no place in practice--perhaps someone has a real problem playing on the beat and feels the need to isolate that issue. But I never liked it, found it tedious, and so I guess I was relieved that a teacher/player of you caliber essentially gave me permission to chuck it.

The other aspect of that private video lesson was that in a very short time, you had a good player and reader even better simply by having him play quarter notes from a written score paying attention to long tones. Essentially cutting the fat and proving that a perfect and honest musical bass performance in within reach of everyone.

Also, thank you for hanging in there and putting up with some pretty uncalled for remarks.

Thank you for your thoughts! Ironically, it is the people that seem to resist the most that i wish to relate to the most. If some will let me, I could influence a great change in how they learn.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think what Jeff and Carol Kaye both say is that learning chord notes is the way to play jazz quickly.

No! Chord tones represent the chords and are a much clearer academic point of music to regard than scales are! That's it!

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Can you share how plucking your bass strings without having a musical reason for doing so will help you to pluck those strings when a musical reason comes up?

Consistently. And mastering strict alteration if someone wishes to do so. This becomes more important and requires more initial practice the more fingers you choose to pluck with. It’s also something that can be done when you don’t have an instrument around. It’s also something that’s a regular part of drunning academia.

 

[natobasso]

You spend more time defending yourself than expressing your ideas. Can you please state, clearly, what your teaching methods and beliefs are?

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

My personal favorite is a book by Arnie Berle called "Theory & Harmony For The Contemporary Musician". It's been a while since I read it front to back, so I'm not sure how much introductory theory it goes over. One may want to look into a beginner's music theory book, one that at least covers the circle of fifths, intervals, why and how chords are formed, tension and release, etc. (though I believe much of this is in Berle's book). The book goes more into modern jazz theory and will help in learning more advanced chord structures, various progressions you'll commonly find in standard jazz songs (and certainly any rock, pop, or blues song), and much more. Armed with this knowledge I'd hit the real books, as I stated earlier in this thread somwhere, and (starting with simple songs) work through the progressions, any bass lines that may be there, the chords to the song, listen to different recordings of these songs and transcribe what you hear the artists improvising (or the original melodies too if they've altered these any!), and I'd also improvise some of my own walking lines and phrases/riffs. By the time you finish this (which is really a lot more fun than it sounds on paper) I'm sure you'll have a thorough understanding of the song inside and out. Take what you've learned there a move on to another song, keep going til you can start to fully understand more and more complex songs throughout the books.
I'll stop here as this is where I currently am in my musical journey. Before me lies a book I'm currently looking into, "Arranging for Large Jazz Ensembles" by Dick Lowell and Ken Pullig, and on my computer I have open the real book in bass clef. The point of the last sentence is to say that once you've gotten to this point it is only the beginning of the real musical journey! From here lies still endless amounts of knowledge to be gained and internalized, and what you decide to learn from this point on is what will make you your own musician. Shaping your own musical style and sound, and separating your music from that of anyone else's.
I love the video, that I will post part two of, of Jacob Collier's interview. If you listen to his music, it's clear that nobody else sounds like that. But, hearing him talk about himself and his musical upbringing instills in me a belief that, though many may argue with it, nobody is truly special. It's clear Jacob has just gone through the basic steps of learning music (much like those, including his pal Herbie, before him and those who will come after) and is now at a point where he's actively pursuing the knowledge he feels would be of interest to him in adding to his own unique "pallet".

Isn't conversation like this delightful?


Edit: I'll add that this is, to the best of my understanding, what Mr. Berlin would describe a self-taught method. I highly recommend finding a college educated jazz musician to help you understand and internalize what you are reading, seeing, and hearing along your path, as well as to help direct you through songs in the real books, and also recommend more literature that's out there for you to gain from. This is what I've done and would be nowhere near as far off as I am without their guidance and support.

A lot of stuff ... need to make a selection ...

 

[smperry]

I'm not arguing that the sky is blue. I'm arguing that people are paying teachers to tell them that the sky is blue. This is a stupid reason to pay someone to teach you this.

[/QUOTE]

People can and should make up there own minds and I have said so. There's nothing passive aggressive in my views. They simply are!!! You can agree or not as one wishes.

I agree and I thank you for understanding this. I've noticed that way less people on Talkbass seem to be OK with points of learning that violate what they believe in. It isn't about belief. It is about what IS!

@Jeff Berlin: it is not okay to spend your time on TalkBass denigrating other educators and music educators, be they at a university or otherwise. Nor is it okay to put down TalkBass members that pay for a music education that doesn't fit your belief of what is productive.

It is okay to argue ideas. You're saying your points are beliefs sometimes, and facts others, and I do think people are finding this behavior disingenuous and patronizing. TB members' lack of agreement or understanding isn’t really the point though. I want to point out that you are passively aggressively putting down a (I believe sizeable) portion of the TalkBass community when you say it is bad/stupid to endorse a method of teaching other than your own, or to teach music in a different way from how you teach, even when you provide anecdotal support (“Accomplished people do this...”) You are free to believe what you want just as everyone else is, but, I think you'll be more successful here if you put forth your own ideas without putting down others, or suggest that TB members are close minded just because they do not share your beliefs on one specific thing. I am not arguing against your own abilities as a musician (which would be silly) nor as an educator; I am talking about your conduct on Talkbass in relation to people that disagree with you and in the context of TalkBass rules that apply to everyone. It's possible to state beliefs and argue ideas without putting down others but we're not there yet.

I am trying to be as clear as possible and I apologize that this likely sounds condescending. Judging from the large number of post reports the moderators are receiving and the discussion here (including deleted and edited posts), I feel comfortable saying that a number of people are finding some of your posts to be condescending and I do not think that is your aim. We are getting swamped, and I don't think it's sustainable without some changes. This is a new thing for Talkbass and Jeff Berlin, so this isn't shocking and doesn't need to be a huge deal despite my wordiness; I'm just asking for some adjustment here.

Talkbass members that don't agree with Jeff Berlin, don't take this post as an invitation to troll the thread or insult Jeff Berlin. It won't fly. If you feel frustrated like you're banging into a wall and not getting anywhere, you might want to just go to another forum. Again, it’s okay to disagree.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

You spend more time defending yourself than expressing your ideas. Can you please state, clearly, what your teaching methods and beliefs are?

Jeff has actually stated them pretty clearly- if you look through the other thread in this forum, his posts explain most of his beliefs about teaching. Nearly all of the disagreements arise from what he believes people shouldn’t learn from a teacher. As far as what he believes people should learn from a teacher, I don’t see anyone disagreeing. He’s clearly a great instructor- for anyone who hasn’t seen it, there’s a full half hour lesson he has with a student online that shows his passion for teaching and personable approach when dealing with students:

 

[natobasso]

He still hasn't clearly expressed what his views are, rather what they aren't, and what others shouldn't be doing, based on circular, and oftentimes incorrect examples and allegories. He's done this before, in Bass Player Magazine and gets defensive as a way of never being "wrong", when in fact he can't be wrong because his only point is everyone else is. Anyway, I'll not spend any more time on this thread, it's not very helpful to me.

 

[KJMO]

Thanks for posting that Bryan. After watching, I'm crystal clear what Jeff is talking about. Personally, I'm full of remorse for not getting that type of education. And a little peeved I allowed myself to make excuses (e.g. formal education kills creativity, etc.) Here I am at 51, and I feel it's too late. Maybe that's where some of the hostility comes from (well, that and ego)?

At any rate, this thread was timely, in that I had been watching videos and ran across one on chord substitution in Christmas songs. I printed out a chord chart and was playing with different chords under the melodies playing in a loop. Now I look at this video and see chord tones in action. Maybe it's not too late for me? I want to play some jazz before I die, and I think I have a little better idea how to go about that now.

 

[JeffBerlin]

@Jeff Berlin: it is not okay to spend your time on TalkBass denigrating other educators and music educators, be they at a university or otherwise. Nor is it okay to put down TalkBass members that pay for a music education that doesn't fit your belief of what is productive.[/QUOTE]

I never mentioned anyone individually, neither institution nor bass player. Never! For me, stating that bass education compromises one's chance at achieving positive musical skills seems as accurate as stating that the tobacco industry compromises good health. Interestingly, smokers aren't offended by this statement. Some just ignore the advice that they get and do what they wish. Some bass players can't do the same thing.

Here are two thoughts:

1. Bass educators that do not put music first and foremost into how they teach are not, in my opinion, going to improve their student's bass playing.

2. Jazz musicians, most notably (but not exclusively) the brass and piano players are more skilled to teach great musical ideas to practice. Bass players would do well to study with them.

I never leave people hanging. I offer people other options to ponder But, if what i say doesn't click with people, then they should just ignore my comments.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Consistently. And mastering strict alteration if someone wishes to do so. This becomes more important and requires more initial practice the more fingers you choose to pluck with. It’s also something that can be done when you don’t have an instrument around. It’s also something that’s a regular part of drunning academia.

Ultimately, practicing string crossings without using music to practice this technique doesn't work to improve your playing because no matter what song or piece of music you are going to play, you still have to first learn what the notes are and how to play them. Just crossing strings doesn't benefit one's playing because notes aren't involved in the technique. How can one be consistent if there aren't any notes to be consistent with.

 

[JeffBerlin]

@Jeff Berlin: it is not okay to spend your time on TalkBass denigrating other educators and music educators, be they at a university or otherwise. Nor is it okay to put down TalkBass members that pay for a music education that doesn't fit your belief of what is productive.

I agree that some people aren't happy with my views.

I never mention anyone individually, neither institution nor bass player. Never! For me, stating that bass education compromises one's chance at achieving positive musical skills seems as accurate a statement as saying that the tobacco industry compromises good health. Ironically, smokers never appear offended by this statement. Some just choose to ignore the advice that they get. It might be a positive thing if some bass players should try and follow suit.

People are invited to make up their own minds about what I share. No one is obliged to subscribe to my views.

Here is a quote from the late Christopher Hitchens that means a lot to me.

“If someone tells me that I've hurt their feelings, I say, 'I'm still waiting to hear what your point is. In this country, I've been told, 'That's offensive' as if those two words constitute an argument or a comment. Not to me they don't."