If a player has experience, there are no fluctuations that are a detriment to a musical performance.
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Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!
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We are discussing music and the improvement of time, not ADHD and stuttering. I would like you to post some of these studies that shows how a metronome can make internal time better. Thanks!
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People should aim wherever it makes them happy to aim.
If your aim is to be a pro golfer on the PGA tour - great. If your aim is to be a 30 handicap weekend duffer on the golf course that just plays for fun... great.
This is VERY dependent on the individual.
For some - it may be nothing, for others it may be 500%.
Consistent internal timing generally.
Some people naturally can keep tempo variation reasonable - say within 5-10bpm of intended tempo of 80 bpm over the course of a 3 minute song.
Some people can't keep tempo within 80 bpm of intended tempo of 80 bpm over the course of a 3 minute song.
Depends on HOW the variance occurs.
Slight gradual tempo shifts are generally unnoticeable. Wildly swinging tempo shifts can be awful.
A song going from 80-100bpm over the course of the tune - no big deal. A song going back and forth between 80-100bpm, unevenly, within a musical phrase - pretty awful.
ALL time/rhythm (whether speech, music, golf swing, basketball shot etc.) is related to resolution and efficiency of an individual’s internal brain clock and temporal processing.
Studies -
Studies on the metronome effect on stuttering., Brady JP., Behaviour Research and Therapy 1969 May;7(2):197-204.
Incorporation of feedback during beat synchronization is an index of neural maturation and reading skills., Woodruff, Fitzroy, Tierney, White-Schwoch, Kraus, Brain & Language 2017 Jan;164:43-52
Improved Motor-Timing: Effects of Synchronized Metro-Nome Training on Golf Shot Accuracy, Sommer, Ronnqvist, Journal of Sports Science and Medicine 2009 Dec; 8(4): 648–656.
Beta-band oscillations during passive listening to metronome sounds reflect improved timing representation after short-term musical training in healthy older adults., Fujioka , Ross, European Journal of Neuroscience 2017 Oct;46(8):2339-2354
Michael Schreiber
Commercial User
This one is interesting; though, it's only about feedback as an indicator, not a practice measure -
"Synchronization employing feedback may prove useful as a remedial strategy for individuals who strug-
gle with timing-based language learning impairments." and further to the end:
"The present findings provide a lens into adolescent neural maturation and consequent language skills, revealing relationships between a timing-based integration task and cortical auditory-evoked potentials, intrinsic oscillatory gamma activity, and reading subskills.
These findings could be useful for clinicians seeking a monitoring tool for intervention outcomes, and future work is needed to determine if providing timing error feedback during synchronization could also be a successful strategy for remediation."
So, regardless how off-topic this study may be or not be; it seems to be about monitoring, not improving, right?
Nevertheless, interesting idea. In my laymence opinion, that is
It's a very nebulous question.
If it's a question for YOU only, then, you are capable of answering it.
Here are my "speculations" concerning your tempo variance question.
Let's look at tempo variations of the band - a specific(!) band, with specific(!) musicians, vocalists, even dancers, etc...
1. It's all about the organic/integral "tightness"(it's a jargon) of the band, which consists of two (2) "requirements":
A.) Those tempo variations should not cause ANY issues (based on SO MANY THINGS) with the musicians, vocalist/s, dancers, etc... in the band; otherwise, we have a PROBLEM, and it does not matter what the tempo variation tolerance is or how big that variation is, or in what Measure, in what Part of the composition that tempo variation has occurred.
If you have some internal bickering among musicians about "consistent/inconsistent" tempo" in the band - we have a problem, and it does not matter what the tempo variation tolerance is or how big that variation is...
B.) Those tempo variations must comply with the band's background requirements. Let's say, all musicians are happy with other musicians in the band - chemistry!, but their performance must meet some requirements like, playing with a click/sync track for numerous reasons; otherwise, we have a Problem.
Let's say, the band must play with a click and the band's tightness disappears, some musicians start faltering, and so on.
2. Those tempo variations, must not be noticeable for the audience!
Let's say, all musicians in the band are having FUN, enjoying playing together, but the audience start noticing issues/problems with the song's tempo - it's not good.
In short.
In my previous postings, I've clearly demonstrated that the song's tempo could fluctuate ANYWHERE in the composition/song, but
(a) it MUST NOT destroy the organic/integral band's performance,
(b) and meet the audience tempo "requirements."
Michael Schreiber
Commercial User
I agree with @Whousedtoplay 's reply. Just want to add from my experience: Beethoven's Fifth conducted by Furtwängler felt way too lame to me; I am more a fan of Strauss', Karajan's and Mazel's conduction, speaking just about the choice of tempo.
(EDIT: specifically variations at key positions; like working against the excitement versus enhancing it)
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The Audience did not like the choice of tempo (or tempo variations), and it did not matter how the musicians had felt about Furtwängler's conducting, and it did not matter that Furtwängler
is widely regarded as one of the greatest symphonic and operatic conductors of the 20th century.
Michael Schreiber
Commercial User
Yes, absolutely. So, the second point you made in your original post is very true, as are the others, IMO.
This one is interesting; though, it's only about feedback as an indicator, not a practice measure -
"Synchronization employing feedback may prove useful as a remedial strategy for individuals who strug-
gle with timing-based language learning impairments." and further to the end:
"The present findings provide a lens into adolescent neural maturation and consequent language skills, revealing relationships between a timing-based integration task and cortical auditory-evoked potentials, intrinsic oscillatory gamma activity, and reading subskills.
These findings could be useful for clinicians seeking a monitoring tool for intervention outcomes, and future work is needed to determine if providing timing error feedback during synchronization could also be a successful strategy for remediation."
So, regardless how off-topic this study may be or not be; it seems to be about monitoring, not improving, right?
Nevertheless, interesting idea. In my laymence opinion, that is
It's largely about measuring synchronization, and shows that ability to synchronize varies significantly.
You will find some interesting perspective on tempo/pulse from a certain Glenn Gould and the Goldberg Variations. As you may or may not know, he had a certain obsession with that piece, essentially devoting a large portion of his life to 'getting his head around it'. In one interview he reveals how he had a 'watershed' when he realised (and executed in the 1981 recording) that all 30 variations were a more cohesive whole when played with a shared pulse. There are obviously apparent tempo differences between the parts, but when they are held together by a common pulse, i.e. integer multiples or simple fractions of the various tempi according to time signature... I'll let you listen and see what I mean.
Most probably, some TB member would post a comment, “I don’t care what the audience thinks”.
I believe the "audience" is the only true judge of one's music, and for one reason. It's near, if not entirely, impossible to have a objective view towards something you've had a hand in creating.
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Interestingly, I just got an email from an online bass lessons provider saying they've put up 4 new courses, Functional Theory for Bassists vol 1 and vol 2, and Essential Sight Reading for Bass vol 1 and vol 2 (as this is Jeff's thread would seem wrong to say which provider).
So his bass teaching revolution may be having an impact. Or this is just coincidence
So his bass teaching revolution may be having an impact. Or this is just coincidence
I totally agree! But Where I feel that you are missing the point is that to play the game of golf in the manner that it was designed to be played, you have to learn how to swing the club or putt the ball correctly. Bass players don't seem to want to do even this even while they are spending money to learn how to play.
Well, my lessons have been out since, I think, October. They took me over a year of writing and very often rewriting the music, upgrading and changing it for the better. If these new etudes just came out the other day, I'd be careful in thinking that they were written with thought to harmony or sequence. I'm not saying that they NOT, but preparing exercises for people is serious stuff.Interestingly, I just got an email from an online bass lessons provider saying they've put up 4 new courses, Functional Theory for Bassists vol 1 and vol 2, and Essential Sight Reading for Bass vol 1 and vol 2 (as this is Jeff's thread would seem wrong to say which provider).
So his bass teaching revolution may be having an impact. Or this is just coincidence
Eric Clapton once said that "Cream had a healthy disregard for the audience. It was all about the music." Now, he didn't say that they looked at the audience with distain, but that their opinion didn't count. What they played was for them. All great musicians do this; they play for themselves, not the audience. But they invite the audience to share in their experience.
There is no "manner" that golf was "designed to be played"
...and , you absolutely don't have to learn "how to swing the club or putt the ball correctly" - anyone who has spent any amount of time on a low priced public course will tell you that.
See: croquet putting, anchored putting, claw grip putting, crosshanded grip putting, and traditional grip putting.
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