Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[JeffBerlin]

I don't know if it's just me but I feel like bass instruction reaaaally comes short when it comes to fretless.
When you see what it takes a classical cello player to eventually play in tune... just buy a fretless and get down to it? Seriously?

Sorry to be always counterpointing you guys, but, yes! If you buy a fretless bass, as with a fretted one, the notes come first. To play a fretless bass doesn't require instruction. Just play the notes in tune. If you can't, then you have some practicing to do. If yo still can't, then your ear isn't trained to hear if you are in tune or not. It kind of goes back to tuning your bass with a tuner; when bass players realize that good time, an in tune instrument, playing a fettles in tune and any and all musical things comes from them, then they and the worldwide bass community will improve.

People teaching or suggestion that fretless players need lessons is silly. You all know what to do. You have to play in tune So practice this.

 

[JeffBerlin]

You have learned music since the age of 5 and have learned from the best music teachers over many years. Assuming that learning was (is) based on musical content and your level of mastery of that content, what do you or what did you learn or work on in the later years of your music development?

If I identified a weak spot in my playing (I have lots of them) I would practice on this. Or I might transcribed specific parts from jazz records and play them. Usually I would play a four bar example in 12 keys. This narrowed down what I needed to practice and got me to attend to it all over the bass.

 

[JeffBerlin]

In one of the videos posted earlier (MarkBass clinic in Italy), you mention that it would take 4 months to fix an induvidual not knowing much about music and not knowing much about the bass. With that statement, were you referring to that individual or is that a general statement about the timeframe to learn music well? And, is that working on music full time?

This was a general point of improvement. Realize that many bass players know little about what to practice or even how to do it. Four months of working on specific principles designed to improve one's playing seemed a solid time period to experience musical improvement because even a small amount of change in the playing ability of someone with little knowledge of both playing and music will be noticeable in a significant way.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

To play a fretless bass doesn't require instruction. Just play the notes in tune.

Without the context, that sounds so bold that I coudn't resist to quote
Seriously, you are right about what you say within the context of your post; There are enough good instructions available online for free (EDIT: to improve one's ears, I mean), of which one can choose. And, of course, come up with own practice ideas. So, to that extent it is true, that all that is required would be him and his resolve - agreed.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

This was a general point of improvement. Realize that many bass players know little about what to practice or even how to do it. Four months of working on specific principles designed to improve one's playing seemed a solid time period to experience musical improvement because even a small amount of change in the playing ability of someone with little knowledge of both playing and music will be noticeable in a significant way.

Thanks for continuing to share so much information with us Jeff!
For one who's been focusing on improving their ability to improvise more creative and, maybe more importantly, less repetitive walking lines, what would you recommend a person to focus on?

 

[fdeck]

Yes, that's the fun part
Just curious: How different does your cello's fingerboard feel in size and shape compared to the one on your bass?
Enough that the fingers can learn to feel "ah we're on the bass, right now"?
I never had a cello in my hand; just my violin, which feels totally different, and helps recalling the different finger movements.
Is that more difficult between cello and bass, since cello is bigger?

It's very strange. My cello is 27 inch scale. My electric is 34, and my upright is 41. When I was in high school, I bopped back and forth between cello an bass without skipping a beat. So it's like my brain just has to load a different program, and off I go. I'm working on debugging my cello program. The cello strings are also about 1/4 inch apart at the nut, and the neck is correspondingly narrower. Also, the fingerboard is much more curved, mainly so that the bow only plays on one string at a time.

I use the same approach to intonation on all three instruments. It is my opinion that intonation is more about technique than hearing. Of course you have to hear and recognize the pitch. But your fingers just have to go where they belong. Doing the same thing precisely every time under increasingly challenging conditions is technique. As for intonation, my approach is that I've learned one of the "schools" of left hand technique, and I stick with it pretty much religiously. That way, I can develop consistency. I think it helps a lot to have a teacher work with you on this when you're starting out, because they can look at what you're doing, and diagnose your problems. When I notice that I'm playing a passage consistently out of tune, I analyze what I'm doing wrong with my technique, and I work on correcting it.

Post 762 seems like a decent recipe. Note that Jeff talks about all 12 keys. My classical teachers were adamant that I should learn to be equally comfortable in any key, and not have "preferred" keys. Also, I later learned that practicing the same exercise in all 12 keys was an exercise that Charlie Parker was famous for.

 

[FantasticFour]

It is my opinion that intonation is more about technique than hearing. Of course you have to hear and recognize the pitch. But your fingers just have to go where they belong. Doing the same thing precisely every time under increasingly challenging conditions is technique. As for intonation, my approach is that I've learned one of the "schools" of left hand technique, and I stick with it pretty much religiously. That way, I can develop consistency. I think it helps a lot to have a teacher work with you on this when you're starting out, because they can look at what you're doing, and diagnose your problems.

Thanks fdeck that's exactly what I was thinking of.

 

[SteveCS]

...

Regarding the body benefits that you mentioned, this sounds silly to me. Can you share with me any information of any kind where using a metronome is attributable to a benefit in one's body? What information indicates that your balance is improved as if your balance needs work in the first place? I really would like to see any literature that supports your thoughts. Thanks!

Its funny. The metronome was invented as a composition tool - to help composers to easily quantify and indicate the intended tempo, and any incidental changes, on the score by adjusting/matching the metronome to the music they were writing rather than adjusting the music to the beat of the metronome. The metronome was not designed as a source of tempo but an indicator of it...

 

[JeffBerlin]

Thanks for continuing to share so much information with us Jeff!
For one who's been focusing on improving their ability to improvise more creative and, maybe more importantly, less repetitive walking lines, what would you recommend a person to focus on?

I would read perfectly written walking bass lines to learn how they work. I find it unhelpful when teachers ask students to write out a walking bass line and then correct their work. I think that it is much more effective to read lines that already are perfect as this gives an instant involvement in musical perfect. The one catch is that I usually don't see walking bass lines that are that harmonically good. This makes it a little tough for you, someone that wants to figure out how they work. I have an idea about this so give me a couple of days.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Its funny. The metronome was invented as a composition tool - to help composers to easily quantify and indicate the intended tempo, and any incidental changes, on the score by adjusting/matching the metronome to the music they were writing rather than adjusting the music to the beat of the metronome. The metronome was not designed as a source of tempo but an indicator of it...

You are entirely correct! And it inspires a thought that bass players should think about.

Bass players view the use of metronomes as an utterly indispensable if. Here is a question.

If bass players cannot imagine a musical life without a metronome, are bass players saying that they don't have the talent to develop good time without one? If there was no metronome in the world, does this mean that bass players would have to accept that they aren't capable to play in time?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I would read perfectly written walking bass lines to learn how they work. I find it unhelpful when teachers ask students to write out a walking bass line and then correct their work. I think that it is much more effective to read lines that already are perfect as this gives an instant involvement in musical perfect. The one catch is that I usually don't see walking bass lines that are that harmonically good. This makes it a little tough for you, someone that wants to figure out how they work. I have an idea about this so give me a couple of days.

Thank you for the response, will be looking forward to hearing this idea! Until then, I suppose I'll start looking into transcribing and finding written lines from some songs that I enjoy and whatever others that I can think of.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

If there was no metronome in the world, does this mean that bass players would have to accept that they aren't capable to play in time?

Reminds me of clocks: Before there were clocks, daily life was based on natural cycles and events; like getting up when the inner clock says "wake up" - or with the sunrise, the cockcrow, the kids, the cats, whatever.

Nowadays, daily life is soaked with machine timing dictated by clocks - no matter what the human's innerst feels or says.
Meeting start 8 AM sharp. Bus departs at 7 AM. News in TV at 8 PM. Rather robotic. Like always, I guess, the dose makes the poison. Translates well to music, to my mind. A score played perfectly in time by a computer program may sound nice - but not organic, nor natural. So why trying to sound like a machine?

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

You are entirely correct! And it inspires a thought that bass players should think about.

Bass players view the use of metronomes as an utterly indispensable if. Here is a question.

If bass players cannot imagine a musical life without a metronome, are bass players saying that they don't have the talent to develop good time without one? If there was no metronome in the world, does this mean that bass players would have to accept that they aren't capable to play in time?

I supposed it really depends on how sensitive the player is to fluctuation in tempo or precise they can be in relation to a metronome.

In the context of a band, I, for example, don't mind a little bit of fluctuation in tempo as long as it is within reason. I do know others that are more sensitive to tempo changes and like the timing to be more 'metronomic' (for lack of better term) or precise.

So, I guess the question is: can 'metronomic' time be learned or practiced?

Personally, I have used a metronome as an accompaniment tool or once I have learned the exercise or piece of music I am working on. But that's just it: it doesn't help me to learn the material; it's a reference once I have already learnt it. I don't consider a metronome part of the learning experience.

I have always agreed with Jeff on that view and it is common sense to me. How can you practice at performance level when you are working on something you cannot yet do? You work through it slowly and out of time. A metronome would be a distraction and sabotage the learning process.

In a performance context, a metronome can be a useful tool to refer to for more consistency for counting off a song.

 

[aborgman]

The question could actually be answered using some pretty basic science, but I can't find anything like a real study (I bet it's out there, if someone can point me in that direction).

There are a number of studies showing metronomes can make internal timing better - musically, as well as helping stuttering and helping with ADHD.

 

[Rhythmace]

Anyone else concerned about starting the lessons and not having the discipline to stay with it? Also I have a cheap Rogue Beatle bass that is short scale. Is that bad to learn on?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Anyone else concerned about starting the lessons and not having the discipline to stay with it? Also I have a cheap Rogue Beatle bass that is short scale. Is that bad to learn on?

There's never anything to lose from paying for at least one lesson with person. At the very least you get a different perspective to hear from.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Also I have a cheap Rogue Beatle bass that is short scale. Is that bad to learn on?

Does it feel comfortable to you; and do you like it, is it fun to play?
Then it's perfect for learning; ergonomic to you, and keeps you motivated to play - rather than forcing yourself to use a bass you don't like. Short scales are made for that purpose; and doesn't mean it's "less" bass than a long scale. So, don't worry, trust your feeling, I dare propose

 

[PJMustangFreak]

Does it feel comfortable to you; and do you like it, is it fun to play?
Then it's perfect for learning; ergonomic to you, and keeps you motivated to play - rather than forcing yourself to use a bass you don't like. Short scales are made for that purpose; and doesn't mean it's "less" bass than a long scale. So, don't worry, trust your feeling, I dare propose

Indeed! I strictly play short scale Hofner Beatle basses and the short scale Fender PJ Mustang. The 30" scale is perfect for my short fingers. Never heard anyone complain about it being "less bass" thus far! Go with what feels right.

 

[Rhythmace]

Thanks guys. I do like the shorter neck. Since I play guitar it's tempting to use a pick all of the time. Bet that's a worn out topic?

 

[Downsman]

Thanks guys. I do like the shorter neck. Since I play guitar it's tempting to use a pick all of the time. Bet that's a worn out topic?

Yes, picks vs fingers vs thumbs etc are pretty heavily covered topics if you do a search on here. Though might be interesting to find out if Jeff Berlin has a view on the subject, in terms of whether there's an advantage to initially learning with one method or another, before trying other approaches out. Personally I tend to mostly play using my thumb a bit like Sting's style, though I've also used a pick (I also switched from guitar) and taught myself finger style too. Still haven't decided which I like best.