Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[aborgman]

Great! Post those links here. I am interested to read them.

Studies on the metronome effect on stuttering., Brady JP., Behaviour Research and Therapy 1969 May;7(2):197-204.

Incorporation of feedback during beat synchronization is an index of neural maturation and reading skills., Woodruff, Fitzroy, Tierney, White-Schwoch, Kraus, Brain & Language 2017 Jan;164:43-52

Improved Motor-Timing: Effects of Synchronized Metro-Nome Training on Golf Shot Accuracy, Sommer, Ronnqvist, Journal of Sports Science and Medicine 2009 Dec; 8(4): 648–656.

Beta-band oscillations during passive listening to metronome sounds reflect improved timing representation after short-term musical training in healthy older adults., Fujioka , Ross, European Journal of Neuroscience 2017 Oct;46(8):2339-2354

 

[BBQisgood]

Studies on the metronome effect on stuttering., Brady JP., Behaviour Research and Therapy 1969 May;7(2):197-204.

Incorporation of feedback during beat synchronization is an index of neural maturation and reading skills., Woodruff, Fitzroy, Tierney, White-Schwoch, Kraus, Brain & Language 2017 Jan;164:43-52

Improved Motor-Timing: Effects of Synchronized Metro-Nome Training on Golf Shot Accuracy, Sommer, Ronnqvist, Journal of Sports Science and Medicine 2009 Dec; 8(4): 648–656.

Beta-band oscillations during passive listening to metronome sounds reflect improved timing representation after short-term musical training in healthy older adults., Fujioka , Ross, European Journal of Neuroscience 2017 Oct;46(8):2339-2354

I read abstract of Fujioka's paper. Unless I am mistaken they looked at timing perception/representation that improved after musical training.

In other words, the musical training helped them distinguish beats of the metronome, not the other way around (or am I misreading this?)

I have seen a few papers that associate metronome use with such endpoints as improved performance of etudes in the short term and association of grade-level achievement but I am uncertain causality has been established.

On the other hand, we can't have a randomized double-blind 30 year longitudinal study of 1000 musicians where some never hear a metronome.

Also see my links a page or so back.

 

[aborgman]

I read abstract of Fujioka's paper. Unless I am mistaken they looked at timing perception/representation that improved after musical training.

In other words, the musical training helped them distinguish beats of the metronome, not the other way around (or am I misreading this?)

The mechanism for both appears to be the same - so practicing synchronization with music will improve you ability to follow a metronome, and practicing synchronization with a metronome will improve you ability to follow a musician.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

The mechanism for both appears to be the same - so practicing synchronization with music will improve you ability to follow a metronome, and practicing synchronization with a metronome will improve you ability to follow a musician.

Assuming that'd be true: Would there be a reason to prefer a metronome to a drummer, or a drum track, or even a song?
Wouldn't that achieve the same synchronisation improvement - while in addition, I could learn along some music, and thus more than just synchronisation, but also emphasis, expression, dynamic playing, and other aspects?

 

[BBQisgood]

The mechanism for both appears to be the same - so practicing synchronization with music will improve you ability to follow a metronome, and practicing synchronization with a metronome will improve you ability to follow a musician.

Again forgive me because I have not read the whole paper, but beta band oscillation was the endpoint and I don't know what constituted "musical training". Did Fujioka include metronome use in the training?

Edit: I just found the paper and will read it when I get the time!!

 

[aborgman]

Assuming that'd be true: Would there be a reason to prefer a metronome to a drummer,

Availability and lack of getting bored playing the same 4 measure phrase over and over?

or a drum track, or even a song?

I'd argue a drum machine drum track IS a form of metronome.

Song recordings lack the ability to isolate a small section and work it over and over.

Wouldn't that achieve the same synchronisation improvement - while in addition, I could learn along some music, and thus more than just synchronisation, but also emphasis, expression, dynamic playing, and other aspects?

Yes - metronomes are far from the only way to work on synchronization... but they do provide certain things those others do not, just as those others provide things a metronome does not.

The argument isn't that a metronome is the only way to improve synchronization and temporal sense, or always the best way - just that it is A way to do so.

 

[aborgman]

Again forgive me because I have not read the whole paper, but beta band oscillation was the endpoint and I don't know what constituted "musical training". Did Fujioka include metronome use in the training?

Edit: I just found the paper and will read it when I get the time!!

The training was largely what I would consider "metronomic"

-

"Participants passively listened to one hundred synthesized piano timbre sounds (D4, fundamental frequency of 293.7 Hz, duration of 500 ms, stereo, sampling rate of 44 100 Hz), presented with an inter-onset interval (IOI) of 3 s"

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Availability and lack of getting bored playing the same 4 measure phrase over and over?

Is there a need for that? That'd bore me off, as well

I'd argue a drum machine drum track IS a form of metronome.

Yes, agreed - but I rather had a drum track in mind; there are tons of backing and drum tracks for various genres available - so, even if one is on his own; not in a band, not taking lessons; wouldn't that work? (EDIT: played by humans, I mean ;O)

Or do you see the need to repeat small, monotonic portions in order to facilitate learning to improve timing?

 

[BBQisgood]

The training was largely what I would consider "metronomic"

-

"Participants passively listened to one hundred synthesized piano timbre sounds (D4, fundamental frequency of 293.7 Hz, duration of 500 ms, stereo, sampling rate of 44 100 Hz), presented with an inter-onset interval (IOI) of 3 s"

Thanks. Also my link to article didn't work. I will still try to get ahold of it.

 

[aborgman]

Is there a need for that? That'd bore me off, as well

Sure... when I was working up the Bach Minuet in G (from the Notebooks for Anna Magdalena Bach) on upright bass - there was one MEASURE I couldn't manage to get under my hand and had to play repeatedly hundreds of times. Playing the whole piece to perfect a one measure phrase (that occurs 3-4 times in the piece) would have been really inefficient.

 

[Son of Wobble]

I think in the range of this thread it was more about: Why would you still need a metronome to record, if it helps improving timing as a practice or learning measure?
(EDIT: meaning, if practicing with a metronome did improve timing, it wouldn't be needed for recording a song - that's what I had in mind)

I don't have a wide breadth of recording experience compared with many here, but I HAVE had a producer ask me to play (an acoustic guitar) to a click track on a song we were already multi-tracking. Can't remember why this was necessary, but I do remember that I couldn't do it adequately.

Sure... when I was working up the Bach Minuet in G (from the Notebooks for Anna Magdalena Bach) on upright bass - there was one MEASURE I couldn't manage to get under my hand and had to play repeatedly hundreds of times. Playing the whole piece to perfect a one measure phrase (that occurs 3-4 times in the piece) would have been really inefficient.

You coulda saved yourself some practice time by using the old surf-trash recording trick of simply overdubbing some "whoops" or party laughter over the rough patch of the song. Bach's not around to complain, after all.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Sure... when I was working up the Bach Minuet in G (from the Notebooks for Anna Magdalena Bach) on upright bass - there was one MEASURE I couldn't manage to get under my hand and had to play repeatedly hundreds of times. Playing the whole piece to perfect a one measure phrase (that occurs 3-4 times in the piece) would have been really inefficient.

But that's what I mean - it's not that there aren't any recordings of that Minuet which couldn't be played in a loop, right?
(Not to mention that ensembles also do learn annoying parts in groups and repeat them - but let's assume this is about practicing by oneself before bothering the others in the ensemble.)
So, what's the benefit from learning with a metronome over learning with music? Other than personal preference, I mean.

 

[aborgman]

But that's what I mean - it's not that there aren't any recordings of that Minuet which couldn't be played in a loop, right?

So, what's the benefit from learning with a metronome over learning with music? Other than personal preference, I mean.

Convenience.

Metronome - turn on metronome and practice

Looped recording:

1) Buy recording
2) Create loop (and this was pre cheap and easy computer audio editing days)
3) Find something to play loop... which would have been cassette...

Even with simple recording software available today, the barrier to entry to create a loop to practice that one measure is much greater than just firing up the metronome.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I don't have a wide breadth of recording experience compared with many here, but I HAVE had a producer ask me to play (an acoustic guitar) to a click track on a song we were already multi-tracking. Can't remember why this was necessary, but I do remember that I couldn't do it adequately.

Yes, I also need to do that when recording bass and guitar first for a draft. Otherwise it's always drums first - saves time and timing

Yet, in those scenarios, the metronome is a measure to record - not to practice timing.
It is used to enable cheap and efficient overdubs; so that the drums can be recorded later, and also be replaced without having to re-record the other intrument tracks.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Convenience.

Metronome - turn on metronome and practice

Looped recording:

1) Buy recording
2) Create loop (and this was pre cheap and easy computer audio editing days)
3) Find something to play loop... which would have been cassette...

Even with simple recording software available today, the barrier to entry to create a loop to practice that one measure is much greater than just firing up the metronome.

Today: Turn on PC, grab your bass, loop record
I mean, I see your point, and I agree: The less effort it is to practice, the easier it is to practice regularly.
Still, it's the 21st century... takes only one time to prepare the software. After that it's instant recording.
If that's an issue - then it's a lack of interest, will to improve, and self-discipline, IMHO.
And I would be surprised to see how a metronome would improve that

 

[FantasticFour]

Am I mistaken or are you talking about looping a small part of a minuet to practice it in time to something that wouldn't be a metronome?

 

[aborgman]

Today: Turn on PC, grab your bass, loop record

How does recording a loop of myself, who can't play it, help me?

I'd need to buy a recording of someone who can play it to create a useful loop.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Am I mistaken or are you talking about looping a small part of a minuet to practice it in time to something that wouldn't be a metronome?

That's what I do with Beethoven's Romance in F Major - in order to practice especially the turns (ornaments on violin).
I have the player repeat the whole intro in order to learn the turns in their musical context.

So, I wonder what's the benefit of prefering a metronome to the musical context?

 

[Michael Schreiber]

How does recording a loop of myself, who can't play it, help me?

I'd need to buy a recording of someone who can play it to create a useful loop.

Yeah, sorry, I mean: having the music passage played in a loop.
So, a player would be sufficient - if recording oneself is out of question - and a different topic, anyway.
Don't wanna start an argument about "Is it useful to record oneself when practicing"

 

[aborgman]

So, I wonder what's the benefit of prefering a metronome to the musical context?

The piece I'm talking about was to be played as a solo piece with no accompaniment - so there really is no "musical context"