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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed
- Thread starter JeffBerlin
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This is an interesting point of discussion and I think in many way is true - so the vast majority of rock/pop musicians in the UK are un-tutored and in fact wear that as something of a "badge of pride"!!
So they think that it would compromise their creativity- wheras in fact it dooms them to playing the same few guitar chords that their heroes did!
However - about 10 years ago I started trying to play Jazz and discovered a "hidden world" of great musicians who are also great teachers, playing Jazz gigs at small clubs and teaching at various places.
It is a small world and in a way this works very well for those involved - as apart from playing and teaching Jazz, which they love - these guys are able to land high-paying musical jobs in a wide variety of areas.
So - to take just one example, a few years ago I spent a week at Jazz summer school, being taught by a great UK Jazz guitarist and he told me about how he had spent his last summer, teaching Nicolas Cage to play guitar/mandolin for the film Captain Corelli's Mandolin! I then also spotted this guy as part of the live "house band" on several Saturday night TV shows with rating of 10 million plus viewers!
Those who do take Jazz Education seriously in the UK can fill any musical job, due to their sight reading and ability to play any type of music - whereas the untutored rock stars are stuck in re-forming bands to play the same tired "hits" over and over again!!
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
We NEVER used a drum machine in any lesson I took from him, but hell, we are talking about the mid to late '80's here!that doesn't sound like davehe's big on the drum machines.
We old guys were barely crawling out of our caves to beat on rocks with our clubs then!
Great points Bruce and to a degree glass half empty, half full sort of problem.This is an interesting point of discussion and I think in many way is true - so the vast majority of rock/pop musicians in the UK are un-tutored and in fact wear that as something of a "badge of pride"!!
So they think that it would compromise their creativity- wheras in fact it dooms them to playing the same few guitar chords that their heroes did!
But look at it in another way this music has a vocal content in lyrical message and vocal harmony, it is not a comprimise, but a space left for that creativity to happen.
Jeffs version of Tears in heaven takes the academic route of this piece, the true nature of the piece is the vocal message, Erics emotion for the lose of his son, not its academia, that is the song, not its musiclity. The song on its own takes on a whole new meaning with the vocals that no ammount of "academia" could offer.
Those who seek out music education will find it, because it is there, whether the choose to is a different subject.
Academia is there, always will be and would take a few good books to document it, but its use would fill volumes apon volumes and that is a personal thing to the person using it.
Like the alphabet we use 26 figures, that is it documented, no more no less so it would be a couple of lines to document it, a few books on its academia, but its use and meanings are by all accounts infinate.
Numbers use 10 figures and again a few lines to document it, a few books on its academia, but its uses and meanings.....
Music that we use has by all accounts 12 figures, again to document it would take a few lines.......
Those who have the desire to explore letters, numbers, or music will do so. When we are told that something is a must, or we should continue past where we want to be is others projecting there ideas on to us, not us learning for what we want or need. If a student has to learn say the catalouge of Motown songs, all the academia in the world will not help him to where he wants to be in playing them in the time he he has to put in, but the relevent parts of it to his situation will. If through this he whants to move on, then he has a practical foundation and application to build on.
IMO those who seek to separate music into parts such as academia, performance, technique etc..really have not much to offer a student that they cannot get from any good source. Music is all parts and need to be taught as such, it is the teachers job to teach, but a students job apply it however they see fit.
I have an orchestral background and education (similar to Jeffs) when i was younger and use about 5% of what i know to play blues and have done for the past 30 years. Is that my lose or The Blues gain? Well that is a point for debate for others, in the end it is my decision, my responsibility, my life.
i took lessons from him from 95-98 and we used one every time. not so much to work on actual music, but on speed and timing drills. maybe they weren't as ubiquitous back then as they are now...?We NEVER used a drum machine in any lesson I took from him, but hell, we are talking about the mid to late '80's here!
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
Jimmy - We used nothing more complicated than a simple metronome, and that was after I had the concept we were reviewing under my fingers. We would then go for speed and timing after that. We would then use the 'nome set on the two and four, starting on the three, starting on the "and" of 4, etc. We never used the metronome for any of the Bach stuff, be it the cello suites or the two part piano inversions. As a point of reference, I studied with him in 1987-1988 just as he was auditioning for the Steve Morse gig, and we spent time transcribing things like "Assembly Line" and "Odyssey" and comparing notes. He hipped me to a lot of theory and music, and I still apply everything that I learned with him. I would love to find another teacher up here that I can respect as much as I respect Dave!
Not sure who is in NJ to teach you. But I do have a comment for your to ponder!
If you feel that you are nowhere near the tip of the iceberg, just headed for basecamp, one reason for this is what and how you study. People may not like to hear this, but you have no need to pay money to study slap, John Paul Jones or Jaco Pastorius as a part of your academic lessons. If you study things that are not requiring of much academic pursuit, then for sure, you won't go past basecamp. The problem is what people call good music lessons. A lessons has to consist of material that points you higher. Paying somebody to learn or practice material that you could be working on for free is a botched opportunity to aim for the tip of the iceberg. In three months you could be twice the bass player you are today but for the materials you've been paying to learn. Look for better sources of material, and you can truly improve to a point where it might even startle you to see how much better you've become.
Remember: study for free the things that you don't need to pay to learn, and pay for the things to learn that you don't know well enough to study for free.
Hey Jeff,
Just wanted to say Merry Christmas and thanks for much inspiration. Largely due to this thread I have been inspired to study jazz again and have been taking lessons from Roy V here in Nashville which has been a great experience, the most challenging thing I have done in years. He is really getting me thinking about harmony and musicality in ways I haven't since college 10 years ago!
Keep up with the good work of spreading the message of studying music in a serious and sober fashion. It takes a voice like yours, which can be a little in your face sometimes, to wake us up from our complacency and realize that we should be focused on become better musicians.
It is so easy to rest on your laurels once you have attained a certain amount of chops that it takes a teacher to remind you of your weaknesses and how to overcome them.
Just wanted to say Merry Christmas and thanks for much inspiration. Largely due to this thread I have been inspired to study jazz again and have been taking lessons from Roy V here in Nashville which has been a great experience, the most challenging thing I have done in years. He is really getting me thinking about harmony and musicality in ways I haven't since college 10 years ago!
Keep up with the good work of spreading the message of studying music in a serious and sober fashion. It takes a voice like yours, which can be a little in your face sometimes, to wake us up from our complacency and realize that we should be focused on become better musicians.
It is so easy to rest on your laurels once you have attained a certain amount of chops that it takes a teacher to remind you of your weaknesses and how to overcome them.
This is an interesting point of discussion and I think in many way is true - so the vast majority of rock/pop musicians in the UK are un-tutored and in fact wear that as something of a "badge of pride"!!
So they think that it would compromise their creativity- wheras in fact it dooms them to playing the same few guitar chords that their heroes did!
However - about 10 years ago I started trying to play Jazz and discovered a "hidden world" of great musicians who are also great teachers, playing Jazz gigs at small clubs and teaching at various places.
It is a small world and in a way this works very well for those involved - as apart from playing and teaching Jazz, which they love - these guys are able to land high-paying musical jobs in a wide variety of areas.
So - to take just one example, a few years ago I spent a week at Jazz summer school, being taught by a great UK Jazz guitarist and he told me about how he had spent his last summer, teaching Nicolas Cage to play guitar/mandolin for the film Captain Corelli's Mandolin! I then also spotted this guy as part of the live "house band" on several Saturday night TV shows with rating of 10 million plus viewers!
Those who do take Jazz Education seriously in the UK can fill any musical job, due to their sight reading and ability to play any type of music - whereas the untutored rock stars are stuck in re-forming bands to play the same tired "hits" over and over again!!
You got it! To begin, it IS a hidden world, that enclave of great players and teachers in England.
Recently, I did an interview in an English bass magazine. The interviewer told me that Bob Geldorf told him that too much musical knowledge was a dangerous thing. Geldorf actually said this!
His attitude is an attitude of the artful group of Englishmen who don't regard music past the song that they wrote or the performance of it, and this is the majority of players in England. Right or wrong, I've seen this attitude there for years, and so the guys who are dedicated to investigating academic lessons and musical pursuits are in minority and must struggle to find a truly good teacher to help them, just like they do in other places as well.
Truth is truth and it cuts sometimes! But, no malice intended. I trust that when I comment, I am talking to adult people who see the comments as mostly informative, for their sake. These are the guys who I speak to and I welcome you to this group. Merry Christmas!
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
Jeff - What I meant by my comment is that the more I learn, the more I realize that there is to learn. Dave opened my eyes to a lot of things, and had a very systematic approach that encompassed academic study with ear training. Dave was the one that hipped me to a lot of jazz, but mixed in everything else. We would analyze the rock, Jaco, etc. to relate better to the academic stuff that we were reviewing. We took everything in small steps along the way. We did the slap stuff occasionally just because it was fun, but in no way were the lessons focused on that approach. The lessons ended when he started touring with Morse, which was unfortunate for me, but great for him. I still have a ton of respect for Dave. My knowledge and chops in that one year alone increased 1,000 fold, so I truly get the value of an experienced, qualified teacher.
I want to turbocharge my learning, thus I'm doing the chord studies that you have recommended and digging hard into jazz, looking for and absorbing as much information as I can.
Jeff,
I just read your great tribute article to Mr. Banacos at allaboutjazz.com. He sounds like a wonderful person to have known. Man, I so look forward to attending The Players School of Music in the future!!! I hope and pray that I may attend soon.
"NEESH GUACOMOLE!"
Bryan
I just read your great tribute article to Mr. Banacos at allaboutjazz.com. He sounds like a wonderful person to have known. Man, I so look forward to attending The Players School of Music in the future!!! I hope and pray that I may attend soon.
"NEESH GUACOMOLE!"
Bryan
Garry Dial is a former student of Charlie Banacos and an old friend for years. He is also a brilliant teacher and player. Here is a clip of him teaching corrective thinking to phrasing that mirrors most bass player's habitual staccato approach as well. Just food for thought, so enjoy it!
Here is the link to my article about Charlie!
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=35119
My school is built upon the teachings of Charlies lessons, plus a million other sources of musical instruction. It simply has never happened that anybody left The Players School of Music and not improved their knowledge of music and their ability to play, nobody that is that did the work that they were given.
One time, a guy complained on Talkbass that he attended the school and didn't learn anything. He put the school and the teachers down because he felt that he didn't learn how to improve his music. Vicky and I were wondering who this fellow was. It eventually was pointed out to us by another Talkbass guy who the guy was. I remembered him! He was a guy who didn't learn lessons as fast as he would have liked. Some guys learn faster or slower than others, but, most guys accept their ability to improve and work within these perameters. This fellow didn't! In ensemble, he wanted to go on to another tune and I told him that he needed to stay on the tune that he was working on for another week and work on the exercises related to that song. He apparently was so mad about this that he quit the school and made negative comments about it.
This fellow is not alone in the community of players who think that they know about music but really don't. He made a decision about something that he wasn't qualified to make, even if he thought that he was. Many guys just talk the talk (you can find the talkers over here as well) but cannot imagine that if music isn't learned correctly, then playing is hindered by lack of proper learning. I was in charge of this guy's improvement, and, amazingly, after paying the school, after travelling to Clearwater, Florida to learn, after all the effort that he put in to place himself in a position to improve on his instrument, the one area that he failed at was the musical one by making decisions about a subject that he was not qualified to make.
The truth is, nobody goes home on any instrument at The Players School of Music without some distinct musical improvement. If other schools or teachers are qualified to show you musical content and you do the work that you are given, then, from these sources, you won't go home un-improved either., Therefore, if you choose not to come to Clearwater to study, at least go SOMEWHERE where the quality of musical content outweighs the myth about how much you think that you will improve by studying there.
Hey Jeff,
Not to get too off topic, or to imply any criticism, but I have always been curious why you don't play a five string bass with a high-c, or a 4 string strung a-d-g-c. It seems like with your intense solo style the higher strings would only be an asset. However, I am sure that your decision to play 4 strings only is a very intentional choice on your part. I am just wondering what your thoughts on extended range basses are and your own personal preferences.
Not to get too off topic, or to imply any criticism, but I have always been curious why you don't play a five string bass with a high-c, or a 4 string strung a-d-g-c. It seems like with your intense solo style the higher strings would only be an asset. However, I am sure that your decision to play 4 strings only is a very intentional choice on your part. I am just wondering what your thoughts on extended range basses are and your own personal preferences.
You are never off topic if you ask a musical question!
I don't like the sound of a bass with a higher string. In fact, I rather dislike the sound. A 4 string electric bass functions around three octaves of notes to play (I don‘t like the sound of a two octave 4 string either, but that’s just me!) The 4 string bass three octave bass simply sounds more like a bass ranged instrument even when you go up the neck. Those upper notes of a 5 stringed two octave neck soud too thin. For me the four stringed E,A,D,G, tuned bass guitar is a Universe. There are more musical possibilites on this instrument than I have ever played, and so, the only limits as a player on a 4 string are MY musical limits. The better that I become, the better that I will sound on this instrument. I've always known that the more that I learn about music, the better that I will play. It has never been about the bass itself.
Secondly, five and six string basses were invented by a community of builders who found out that “If You Build It, He Will Come”! And when he gets there, he’s going to pluck down his credit card and buy one! So, they kept building these instruments because people kept buying them even though there really wasn’t a lot of actual musical reasons to own one. P.S. I do agree that a low string is now necessary in much of playing as the music of today often requires this low sound.
There’s a phrase that I’ve been quoted as saying. Because I am so motivated toward musical improvement, something that I try to get everybody to do, I made this comment. When I noticed that 5 and 6 stringed basses were popular, I said that there were some people who didn’t have the musical skills to play a 4 string bass guitar very well. But, now with the building and selling of more-than-four stringed instruments, now people also can’t play a 5 and 6 stringed instrument as well!
Jeff, I would like to use a songs melody as a springboard to improvisation. Are there any academic exercises you utilize that work off a songs melodic/rythmic structures?
Thanks for the comments on the beauty of the 4 string bass! I have played mostly 5's for years, but am looking to go back to 4 strings to help my small hands as I learn these crazy Parker solos.
Also, I know that I haven't even begun to explore the 4 string bass in its depth, just like I haven't even begun to fully explore all that the 4 strings on an upright bass has to offer.
Also, I know that I haven't even begun to explore the 4 string bass in its depth, just like I haven't even begun to fully explore all that the 4 strings on an upright bass has to offer.
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