Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[funkmangriff]

Depends on where you go for it. A generalization shouldn't offend you. The music education in England reflects the music education everywhere, which is generally poor. England's general music population has little interest in learning music, but a great deal of interest in performing it. I know England's educational system intimately. I know some of the schools, the teachers, and I know how the general community of players in England feel about academic learning. And it isn't very supportive of it, hence the generally low attention to musical fact, and only a few good schools dedicated in teaching it, but a huge focus by English players on gigs or performance. If you fall into either group, why be offended with a statement that fits your own personal musical standards? What music school do you study at? If you have learned something there, then what do you care if the general attitude isn't of your standard. Just applaud your own individual improvement because this is all that counts.

before we go any further, im Welsh, im not English!

i think your right about alot of people not wanting to learn about music, and that is their personal choice and theres nothing wrong with that, music is meant to be fun as well as a hobby/job etc.

i think its not about whos teaching you, but how much you want to learn, and about the targets, if any, you set yourself.

if your aiming to be the best musician you can be, then you'll do it, no matter whos teaching you, because you'll learn through other meens. and i think thats the case for everyone no matter where you are in the world. And that principle doesn't just apply to music either.

thats just my opinion anyways

 

[smeet]

Hi Jeff, just wanted to let you know that on your recommendation I contacted Tim Emmons and took a lesson with him.

He gave me some nice ways to think about the fingerboard and I'm now busy learning my inversions all over the neck. With this and going through Chord Studies, I feel like my musical growth is getting a big boost!

Thanks for all your advice, I really appreciate it! Please keep it coming!

And may I say you are doing an admirable job of staying on topic!

 

[Bassman8416]

There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and....the Dutch.
----Nigel Powers(father to Austin Powers)
And perhaps a lack of the use of inversions!!!

 

[JimmyM]

and merry happy holidays to you all!

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Depends on where you go for it. A generalization shouldn't offend you. The music education in England reflects the music education everywhere, which is generally poor. England's general music population has little interest in learning music, but a great deal of interest in performing it. I know England's educational system intimately. I know some of the schools, the teachers, and I know how the general community of players in England feel about academic learning. And it isn't very supportive of it, hence the generally low attention to musical fact, and only a few good schools dedicated in teaching it, but a huge focus by English players on gigs or performance. If you fall into either group, why be offended with a statement that fits your own personal musical standards? What music school do you study at? If you have learned something there, then what do you care if the general attitude isn't of your standard. Just applaud your own individual improvement because this is all that counts.

before we go any further, im Welsh, im not English!

i think your right about alot of people not wanting to learn about music, and that is their personal choice and theres nothing wrong with that, music is meant to be fun as well as a hobby/job etc.

i think its not about whos teaching you, but how much you want to learn, and about the targets, if any, you set yourself.

if your aiming to be the best musician you can be, then you'll do it, no matter whos teaching you, because you'll learn through other meens. and i think thats the case for everyone no matter where you are in the world. And that principle doesn't just apply to music either.

thats just my opinion anyways

Your opinion is pretty spot on, Jeffs explanation is about students, not teachers or what they teach. For the record generalizations are the quickest and easiest ways to offend any section of the community, it is seen as stereotyping, and in some cases racist. By the way i am Scottish..LOL

 

[Slaine01]

Mmmm - cant believe I missed this thread - Subscribed.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hi Jeff, just wanted to let you know that on your recommendation I contacted Tim Emmons and took a lesson with him.

He gave me some nice ways to think about the fingerboard and I'm now busy learning my inversions all over the neck. With this and going through Chord Studies, I feel like my musical growth is getting a big boost!

Thanks for all your advice, I really appreciate it! Please keep it coming!

And may I say you are doing an admirable job of staying on topic!

You are quite welcome. Tim is an old friend and I am sure that you will get some wonderful things from him. Tell him that I send my love and best regards. Also, have him show you chord tone exercises on Maj7, Min7, Min7(b5) Min-maj7 & Dom 7 to start, and you should be off in dealing with some wonderful musical elements to expand your playing. Good luck!

 

[JeffBerlin]

There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and....the Dutch.
----Nigel Powers(father to Austin Powers)
And perhaps a lack of the use of inversions!!!

Those Damn Dutch! They're as dastardly as the Mennonites!

 

[Commreman]

My wonderful kids are giving me a copy of Chord Studies for Electric Bass for Christmas this year. This, combined with the chord exercises you outlined in an old issue of BP, going through the Paul Chambers and Jamerson (SITSOM) books I've been reviewing, as well as reading as much material I can in between learning stuff for the various bands I'm in should tie me up in knots and expand me for some time to come!

Thanks again for all you are doing here.

 

[JeffBerlin]

My wonderful kids are giving me a copy of Chord Studies for Electric Bass for Christmas this year. This, combined with the chord exercises you outlined in an old issue of BP, going through the Paul Chambers and Jamerson (SITSOM) books I've been reviewing, as well as reading as much material I can in between learning stuff for the various bands I'm in should tie me up in knots and expand me for some time to come!

Thanks again for all you are doing here.

An interesting way to use chord tones is to solo with them over jazz tunes. The trick is to ONLY use chord tones for this exercise. Plus, the more difficult element is to not to start each bar on a root note. When you get to the next chord change, try to go to the closest chard tone either above or below in the chords. If you do these exercises, you will be among the very few bass players anywhere who understand the importance to define the chords without the vague tonalities that scales offer. In fact, scales will blur your playing as they are better academic principles, but really hard to use properly. As I have mentioned before, many teachers don't know the difference between the use or even the value of chord tones vs scales. Guys who teach scales do so because they many no have many other choices to offer players. Don't study with a teacher if they are limited in academic offerings to you. Find guys who know more than you do and are willing to give these perfect gems of musical enlightenment to you

 

[funkmangriff]

An interesting way to use chord tones is to solo with them over jazz tunes. The trick is to ONLY use chord tones for this exercise. Plus, the more difficult element is to not to start each bar on a root note. When you get to the next chord change, try to go to the closest chard tone either above or below in the chords. If you do these exercises, you will be among the very few bass players anywhere who understand the importance to define the chords without the vague tonalities that scales offer. In fact, scales will blur your playing as they are better academic principles, but really hard to use properly. As I have mentioned before, many teachers don't know the difference between the use or even the value of chord tones vs scales. Guys who teach scales do so because they many no have many other choices to offer players. Don't study with a teacher if they are limited in academic offerings to you. Find guys who know more than you do and are willing to give these perfect gems of musical enlightenment to you

this confuses me sometimes, by chord tones, do u meen-1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 13, obviously the 7,9 and 13 when put in the chord chart?

 

[JeffBerlin]

1

 

[JeffBerlin]

this confuses me sometimes, by chord tones, do u meen-1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 13, obviously the 7,9 and 13 when put in the chord chart?

Chord tones are the notes that make up a chord. A chord is the root, 3, 5, and 7 (some question the 7, but I always include it as an essential chord tone). The 9, the 11 (a note that you forgot), and the 13 are notes that do not spell out a chord sound, but are notes that color them. You should be seeking out a good music teacher right away. I think that you may not know much about music except to play your bass. A good music teacher will help you with this, and other necessary musical puzzles for you to solve. The more you know, the better you will perform.

 

[SFjonstarr]

Hey Jeff,
Its cool to see you on here. This is Jon Starr from out in San Francisco. The value of my time at the Players School becomes more and more apparent as time goes on. Many of the things I couldn't grasp at the time slowly make more and more sense. For the stable musical foundation you guys helped me to develop I couldn't be more grateful. I'm finishing a degree in sound engineering here in the San Francisco bay area. I hope everyone at the Players School is doing well, I do miss you guys sometimes. Regards,
- Jon

 

[Commreman]

An interesting way to use chord tones is to solo with them over jazz tunes. The trick is to ONLY use chord tones for this exercise. Plus, the more difficult element is to not to start each bar on a root note. When you get to the next chord change, try to go to the closest chard tone either above or below in the chords. If you do these exercises, you will be among the very few bass players anywhere who understand the importance to define the chords without the vague tonalities that scales offer. In fact, scales will blur your playing as they are better academic principles, but really hard to use properly. As I have mentioned before, many teachers don't know the difference between the use or even the value of chord tones vs scales. Guys who teach scales do so because they many no have many other choices to offer players. Don't study with a teacher if they are limited in academic offerings to you. Find guys who know more than you do and are willing to give these perfect gems of musical enlightenment to you

What I have been doing is starting each chord structure at the root, and then moving up the neck and playing all of the inversions. I am also taking the Paul Chambers stuff, identifying the ii-V-I progressions, and then taking what he played over those particular sequences and transposing (or attempting to) them into all keys. It's a lot of work, but these exercises alone are opening up worlds for me. I feel like I'm at the beginning with all of this (I've done all of this in the past with scales and all of their related modes, doing scale fragments and intervals, as well as arpeggios), but I see how it will be worth the effort.

 

[Billnc]

An interesting way to use chord tones is to solo with them over jazz tunes. The trick is to ONLY use chord tones for this exercise. Plus, the more difficult element is to not to start each bar on a root note. When you get to the next chord change, try to go to the closest chard tone either above or below in the chords. If you do these exercises, you will be among the very few bass players anywhere who understand the importance to define the chords without the vague tonalities that scales offer. In fact, scales will blur your playing as they are better academic principles, but really hard to use properly.

This one really shows the benefit of playing out of time, sometimes you have to stop and think! Jeff, when doing these out of time do you think a steady 8th note stream (I am speaking out of time still) like going 1 & 2 & etc. or some other rythm?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hey Jeff,
Its cool to see you on here. This is Jon Starr from out in San Francisco. The value of my time at the Players School becomes more and more apparent as time goes on. Many of the things I couldn't grasp at the time slowly make more and more sense. For the stable musical foundation you guys helped me to develop I couldn't be more grateful. I'm finishing a degree in sound engineering here in the San Francisco bay area. I hope everyone at the Players School is doing well, I do miss you guys sometimes. Regards,
- Jon

Thanks for your nice message. I've always said (with a whole lot of angst from some people who simply hate that I say such words with no hestitation) that my school is one of the best little institutions for learning how to play anywhere in the world! I almost have never had a guy come and study with us who didn't go home double or tripled in their ability and understanding of music. One student of ours attended another bass event that I was at, and the word around the campfire was that this guy couldn't play two notes back to back, and talked about how great he thought he was. I took him aside and showed him a couple of things about playing that stopped him cold. He said that he never had anybody show him his musical weak spots like I did, and the guy promptly came to our school for two years. He just left this December and could read like crazy, solo like mad, and he could play the heck out of other styles that he didn't study with us because of his expanded musical studies.

Thanks Jon for joining that group who continue to see the merits of learning music and then reaping the benefits of those lessons. I remember you well and I wish you all the best in music.

 

[JeffBerlin]

What I have been doing is starting each chord structure at the root, and then moving up the neck and playing all of the inversions. I am also taking the Paul Chambers stuff, identifying the ii-V-I progressions, and then taking what he played over those particular sequences and transposing (or attempting to) them into all keys. It's a lot of work, but these exercises alone are opening up worlds for me. I feel like I'm at the beginning with all of this (I've done all of this in the past with scales and all of their related modes, doing scale fragments and intervals, as well as arpeggios), but I see how it will be worth the effort.

Slow's the way! Slow's the way! You need to learn, not perform, so go slowly, stop when you hit a speedbump, and fix the problem. If you practice this way, you will half your time trying to learn music that you should have always been learning in this manner (hence the ridiculousness of metronomes). Try these solos priniciples on several jazz tunes and you will be amazed at how much improvement you will see. But MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. I generally dismiss anybody who tells me that they are self-taught because most self-taught guys don't have the musical awareness to even realize that they may not be as good a player as they think that they are. The late comedian Henny Youngman said, "A self-taught man usually has a poor teacher and a worse student." Find a great teacher (a harder thing to do in this day an age than it used to be when I was young.) Let HIM be responsible for what you need to be working on.

 

[JeffBerlin]

This one really shows the benefit of playing out of time, sometimes you have to stop and think! Jeff, when doing these out of time do you think a steady 8th note stream (I am speaking out of time still) like going 1 & 2 & etc. or some other rythm?

More like being aware that 8th notes are going by than actually thinking about them. In other words, when you read a book, one doesn't exactly think of the words, rather they regard them. In music ed, sometimes you don't have to make everything mechanical (sometimes you do, but that is another story). In this case, 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & can be beneficial, but one has to be really beginner-type beginner to need to count like that. Usually one just feels the quarter not as they are playing the eighth notes. But sometimes you must count as if you are in a Prussian military band on some exercises. It may seem funny, but just remember that this type of academic apprenticeship only lasts a short time. Ump pah ump pah is soon replaced with a lighter, more sturdy time feel. That, Gentlemen, is the first sign of musical improvement, when you can play something in time and you don't even really know how you got there to do it.

 

[Commreman]

Slow's the way! Slow's the way! You need to learn, not perform, so go slowly, stop when you hit a speedbump, and fix the problem. If you practice this way, you will half your time trying to learn music that you should have always been learning in this manner (hence the ridiculousness of metronomes). Try these solos priniciples on several jazz tunes and you will be amazed at how much improvement you will see. But MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. I generally dismiss anybody who tells me that they are self-taught because most self-taught guys don't have the musical awareness to even realize that they may not be as good a player as they think that they are. The late comedian Henny Youngman said, "A self-taught man usually has a poor teacher and a worse student." Find a great teacher (a harder thing to do in this day an age than it used to be when I was young.) Let HIM be responsible for what you need to be working on.

20 years ago I had the pleasure of studying with Dave LaRue when he was here in NJ. That lasted about a year - I consider it the most valuable time I ever spent learning. We worked on actual music and theory. Everything from Bach to Clifford Brown to Jaco to John Paul Jones, and yes, even some slap stuff.

I am very aware as to where I am as a player. I can hang in any rock or pop gig, but jazz is a totally different story. I've listened to a ton of it, but in terms of playing it, let's just say that I'm nowhere near the tip of the iceberg - I'm still on the plane headed to the base camp! My goals are pretty straightforward. I want to improve incrementally every day, and become as complete a player as I can be. Baby steps while learning Giant Steps is the way to go. I have paid very careful attention to this thread, and I'm taking it slowly. the metronome is collecting dust as we speak while I am learning these concepts!

I would love to hook up with another qualified teacher in NJ. If there is anyone here that you could recommend, that would be great.