Maybe! But, I would go past Dave and go to whoever is considered a great instructor instead of who is a great player. Being a good player doesn't always mean that one can show you how to do it. There aren't many guys in England who qualify, but, somebody like Zoltan Dekany might guide you to players who are. As I mentioned, Ronnie Scott's is a hotbed of players for music's sake. These are the guys to guide you as well as Dave Holland might. Still, I guess, it couldn't hurt to ask Dave. He is only one of the greatest upright bass players in the world.
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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed
- Thread starter JeffBerlin
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Maybe! But, I would go past Dave and go to whoever is considered a great instructor instead of who is a great player. Being a good player doesn't always mean that one can show you how to do it. There aren't many guys in England who qualify, but, somebody like Zoltan Dekany might guide you to players who are. As I mentioned, Ronnie Scott's is a hotbed of players for music's sake. These are the guys to guide you as well as Dave Holland might. Still, I guess, it couldn't hurt to ask Dave. He is only one of the greatest upright bass players in the world.
Completely agree that its a different skill set teaching vs. playing. Sometimes one has both but often times not. I sincerely doubt Dave would be interested in teaching although you never know. (Edgar Meyer, Ron Carter, John Patittuci, Lynn Seaton, Larry Gray, Jeff Bradetich are all great players and all teach. I don't know how good Carter, Meyer or Pattitucci are as teachers although I probably could find out about Meyer since one of my son's friends studied with him at Curtis. But I do know that Gray, Seaton and Bradetich are all very good. Oh yea and there's this guy in named Berlin that plays rather well and teaches.) Anyway, I really only mentioned Dave as that's the only English bassist I could think of.
So the Royal Collage of Music and its associate Collages around the UK, not just England, are not focused on musical improvement?
England in size, if we compare it to certains state in the U.S. or countries in European mainland is very small and population centres can be concentrated.
Music collages cover England from the south to the north and the east to the west, so music education is there for all. Preformance related studies in music are there as well if they want to be studied.
All, i believe, are grant orientated, or can be studied at with various amounts of state, lottery, or sponsored funding.
So this idea you have, please feel free to reply with so verification or where this idea comes from.
Above is the original question, then below that a quote from Blackbird a moderator on this form about courtesy.
Of course i do give points courtesy and time, also i believe i am polite and to the point. I also do not make up points or facts to support an idea i am giving...as Jeff Berlin has here, then ignore responses to qualify the statement.
Jeff Berlin lives in ignorance of what is going on around him( i qualify ignorance as someone who ignores different ideas or engaging in debate or talk to qualify their own ideas and so in the act of ignoring is ignorant).
So let me take the name of Jeff Berlin away from the idea that music in the UK does not involve musical improvement, since Jeff Berlin will not answer the question put to him as Blackbird believes he will, and ask anyone else to offer an explanation of why this idea is so, as if it was made by another TBer.
Now before Jeff Berlin or anybody else tries to turn this in to a negative, Jeff Berlin has made a big statement about music in the UK, without living here or understanding how it works, is funded, taxed, its legal obligations or even being a part of it, so its fair that he clears up this point. To use a Jeff Berlin Phrase on Jeff Berlin, Don't talk the talk if you can't walk the walk.
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Dave Holland is actually quite renowned as an instructor. Some friends of mine have spoken very highly of their time studying with him in Woodstock NY a few decades ago. It took about 15 seconds on Google to find Invalid Link Removed.
Dave Holland is actually quite renowned as an instructor. Some friends of mine have spoken very highly of their time studying with him in Woodstock NY a few decades ago. It took about 15 seconds on Google to find Invalid Link Removed.
Excellent. I think somebody earlier mentiopned that he might be in Boston.
It's an interesting point that you make! If you feel that you are a player of decent capability, you would then be of a certain skill level to take advantage of some unique particulars that the great players can offer. But, these points are always at the top of the pyramid, that is, you have to have skill to understand and deal with the specific issues that the great players are offering. But if you are still putting together the elements of music that all musicians are first required to put together, then the names that you mentioned might not be the right guys to study with.
You know your playing better than anybody and so good luck finding the right guys/girl/troll/leprachan for your needs. Good luck!
Dave Holland is actually quite renowned as an instructor. Some friends of mine have spoken very highly of their time studying with him in Woodstock NY a few decades ago. It took about 15 seconds on Google to find Invalid Link Removed.
Then, there you go! This sounds like quite an endorsement, and so, if you can locate and study with Dave, then you guys should do so. Just make sure that you are ready to study with him. As I mentioned above, you have to have certain skills to take advantage of the great ones. If you have 'em, then call him and the other great upright guys and ask for lessons. But, if you are still putting your playing together, then aim toward the guys that hold the facts and solid lessons of playing and music in their hands and learn from these guys first. Good luck to all!
Oh no Jeff I'm an old guy at the very bottom of the heap skill wise. My contact with the guys mentioned was by way of a musical son of mine. He's studied with three of them and they are all excellent teachers. I mentioned the others because it struck me interesting that just because the player was well known didn't mean that they didn't still teach. I was merely trying state how I would've gone about looking for a teacher in England given I don't live there and don't know anyone there. But since you do then the fellow that was looking should sure follow your advice.
Hi Jeff, i see you are again ducking out of the opportunity to answer the questions about UK music education. So to let everyone know that seeks musical knowledge the UK, London has some of the finest music schools and players in the world so here is a link to one of them, RCM
Invalid Link Removed
Then an hour or so by train we have Manchester and the RNCM
with over 100 students from 50 countries studying.
Invalid Link Removed
Again Jeff you can ignore me like a spoiled child does when its put in it place, i can put links up for world class musical education in the UK all through this thread, but you know that, thats why you don't engage because you will be found lacking.
You do indeed talk the talk, but from the gluteus maximus muscle, gluteus medius muscle and gluteus minimus muscle, rather than what they should be used for . LOL
Invalid Link Removed
Then an hour or so by train we have Manchester and the RNCM
with over 100 students from 50 countries studying.
Invalid Link Removed
Again Jeff you can ignore me like a spoiled child does when its put in it place, i can put links up for world class musical education in the UK all through this thread, but you know that, thats why you don't engage because you will be found lacking.
You do indeed talk the talk, but from the gluteus maximus muscle, gluteus medius muscle and gluteus minimus muscle, rather than what they should be used for . LOL
Regarding your being at the bottom of the heap skill wise, your only limits are musical ones. You could be an entirely new musician in a year, a simple succession of 52 weeks with the right teacher in your life. Wherever you live, that great teacher is somewhere around. He is just hard to find so break out your Sherlock Holmes cap and start looking.
Wow - what a narrow-minded statement. Have you lived in England? What you have is an opinion, not a fact.
Whilst I'm in the UK myself and have my own views on the quality of our music education, I'm posting to point out that hostility or insults directed at any member here are totally out of line. I've already reported some content in this thread to my moderator and admin colleagues. Please, refrain from the personal attacks - I don't want to see this thread closed as many folks are enjoying taking part, in the most literal sense.
I also don't want to see anyone prevented from continuing to take part in any other way.
I also don't want to see anyone prevented from continuing to take part in any other way.
I'll take responsibility for my comments and they are not personal they are directed at the person who instigated them Jeff Berlin.
If that seems insulting then what are the ideas that;
Now Jeff knows that for a FACT..how?
I remember being asked by Blackbird that i should direct my questions to the person and they will answer.
Well mine are at Jeff, but as usual he has no answer. Jeff talks about truth and tough love, musical facts, players being honest with themselves. Well it seems Jeff can give it out, but it seems Jeff cannot take it back.
Thats a hellava accusation to make, and present as fact, and it needs backing up or shut up, regardless of who makes it, and if un-founded deserves a retraction.
As I thought I'd made clear, disagreeing with an opinion is fine - open hostility and personal insults are not. It's not really that hard to understand.
There is disagreeing with opinion and there is completely wrong, misleading and the insulting
is not an opionion, it is a fact as presented by Jeff Berlin.
Anyone who thinks or believes they can openly criticise, with no real knowledge of it, another education system in another country, must realise they are in for a rough ride, if not then they are fools and showing themselves in public to be fools.
I am forthright but not hostile, i am firm in that i will not tolerate being ignored by Jeff on this one, His other ideas are his and he can say and do what he wants about his beliefs, but not spread them and invove others...well now not others but other countries, to make a case for his own end, ie that his Players school in Florida is really, if we think about it, the only is the only serious option now in the world to study music?
I speak only about England ( i may assume that in his ignorance Jeff believes that England is the UK or does his words mean that there is good musical education in Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, or are they the other countries he talks about as bad as fact?) as i live and work and understand to a good degree how it has to be in this country, so canot take to task other countries mentioned or implied.
Jeff Berlin puts the idea forward that people like me are not into musical things, will not believe the truth about music, seek to water down facts etc. These are Jeff Berlins words, so if you believe that then you believe anything that Jeff Berlin says because it is his status that gives him such authority. I say if Jeff Berlin presents
as a fact then he needs to openly explain this.
If it is Jeff Berlin making up information to support his veiws, then what else is he or has he made up?
Simple solution here, explain why this statement is so or retract it, It lies with Jeff Berlin to verify his points and only Jeff Berlin alone can do that.
Now that's not much to ask for?
Fergie - it's a thread on an internet forum. Let's keep it in persective, okay? For your own mental well-being, if nothing else. And please remember that the point you make about one's posts here being a matter of how you choose to present yourself in public applies to all of us, yourself included.
And with that, I'm out of this one; I'll leave it for our admin team to tackle.
And with that, I'm out of this one; I'll leave it for our admin team to tackle.
Exactly, its on an open forum, so the point Jeff puts across can be read anywhere there is an internet connection. I present myself as one who seeks information in a creadible factual way. For you to question my "mental state of mind" could be seen as trying to undermine my points in favour of Jeff Berlin. Like i said, let Jeff Berlin explain his post, I'm sure he is big enough (in more ways than one) to handle anything i say if he can or will speak for himself.
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Actually Jeff has things garbled up: in England it's dentistry that takes a back seat:
Invalid Link Removed[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
It's Liechtenstein that has deplorable standards for music education. This is the bass department at Liechtenstein University. Notice the odd dress code as well:
Invalid Link Removed[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
It's Liechtenstein that has deplorable standards for music education. This is the bass department at Liechtenstein University. Notice the odd dress code as well:
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