Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I have found that when reading music (standard notation, of course), I am generally just trying to hit the notes and get the rhythms. I am not really thinking of harmonies, melodies, keys or chord tones. Is there something that I should be doing to make it more than a reading exercise?

 

[Freddels]

I have found that when reading music (standard notation, of course), I am generally just trying to hit the notes and get the rhythms. I am not really thinking of harmonies, melodies, keys or chord tones. Is there something that I should be doing to make it more than a reading exercise?

If you do everything Jeff is talking about (chord tones forwards, backwards, upside down) you will start recognizing the harmonies as you are reading them.

 

[aidan784]

Regarding learning to read, i suppose this is open to everyone. Ok so i know where the notes are quite well, so i suppose what im trying to do is familiarise written rhythms. I was reading a piece that i couldnt listen to the other day, counting subdivisions working really slowly etc. And it took me like an hour to learn 4 bars, is this bad? I felt good after in in any case... Well anyway what i want to ask is was not having the music to listen to a good idea? I thought it might be because its the written music telling me the rhythms and my ear is not leading it, if you understand? Well any general suggestions for reading anyway are very much appreciated ... looked into those books by the way roy if you read this, thankyou.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff-

Good afternoon. Do you teach/consider chords tones on strong beats (non chord-tones on weak beats) and those sorts of things? I hear alot of forward motion in your playing and wonder if its by design or coincidence. This would regard both walking and soloing.

Will

I never thought about this but it does make sense. I would say that I don't always choose a chordtone as the first note of a downbeat. But, as an academic lesson principle this makes sense. Start with a G, B, or D (the 7th is not as strong as the 1,3, or 5) and continue putting in passing tones between the chord tones. Or, just play chord tone solos as an academic principle. Most bass players can't do this and so it might be a good way to start to learn factual music on your instrument.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I have found that when reading music (standard notation, of course), I am generally just trying to hit the notes and get the rhythms. I am not really thinking of harmonies, melodies, keys or chord tones. Is there something that I should be doing to make it more than a reading exercise?

Harmonic exercises don't have to be regarded as a reading exercise. A reading exercise takes care of itself. It IS of itself. I tsimply is a reading exercise. But, a harmony exercise is different because it doesn't necessarily include a reading benefit because if you can already read, then these exercises are easier to learn and practice. The goal is to improve harmonically on the bass, not to learn how to read via these exercises.
Reading is reading. But, harmonic exercises REQUIRE some reading but aren't inclusive of the "developing one's reading" philosophy.

Finally (and this is important) if you are doing your harmonic exercises, say, playing chord tones, or just reading out of a good trombone book, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ANYTHING! EVER! NOT ONCE TO INTERNALIZE THE EXERCISE! What you have to do is do your reading and your harmonic exercises slowly, over time, for days and weeks and months. Some guys make the mistake (in a long long list of mistakes) of trying to think one's exercises into their brains or their hands. (BIG BUZZER SOUND!) Stop forcing what does not need to be forced. Just read, just practice everyday and do these things in Peace and out of time if need be, and let the magic happen because it absolutely will.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Regarding learning to read, i suppose this is open to everyone. Ok so i know where the notes are quite well, so i suppose what im trying to do is familiarise written rhythms. I was reading a piece that i couldnt listen to the other day, counting subdivisions working really slowly etc. And it took me like an hour to learn 4 bars, is this bad?.

No it is not bad. It simply means that you don't know how to read very well. Don't try to look for your musical improvement. This is like a kid looking to see if his beard is growing. Do the work and you will get your reward. But do it slowly and repeat your exercises before you move on. Just practice them. I suspect that you don't have a music teacher to guide you in how and what to work on. A great teacher will increase your playing ability and you will learn music at the same time.

 

[aidan784]

Nope no teacher, seems they dont exist where i am in the uk. Thanks for your input though? So just playing by reading without hearing is not detrimental? I suppose it helps with your notion of not playing in time or at least upto tempo? Anyway how was Italy Jeff? Any stories following the horror of losing your bass for a while? And my sincere condolences at your loss with mr banacos, he was clearly a fantastic teacher.

 

[Chupacabra]

Nope no teacher, seems they dont exist where i am in the uk.

Have you tried a search on http://www.musicteachers.co.uk/? There seem to be teachers hidden away, all over the place. Remember, you don't necessarily need a bass teacher, just someone who can teach you music

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Have you tried a search on http://www.musicteachers.co.uk/? There seem to be teachers hidden away, all over the place. Remember, you don't necessarily need a bass teacher, just someone who can teach you music

+1 there are great music teachers in most parts of the UK, you are never far from one.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Nope no teacher, seems they dont exist where i am in the uk. Thanks for your input though? So just playing by reading without hearing is not detrimental? I suppose it helps with your notion of not playing in time or at least upto tempo? Anyway how was Italy Jeff? Any stories following the horror of losing your bass for a while? And my sincere condolences at your loss with mr banacos, he was clearly a fantastic teacher.

England is not a great place for good music teachers! Musical things don't generally fly in academia over there. I know this for a fact as I am familiar with the general attitude toward learning music in this, and a few other countries. Italy is the same. It's hard to find academically motivated instructors over there.

But, there must be a few guys who know their stuff. To locate great music teachers, you need to ask around. Again, the great jazz players are the guys to look for. They only function in musical things and therefore, would generally be the best candidates for educational guidance. I hung with a couple of absolutely fantastic players over at Ronnie Scott's, a trumpet player and a pianist (I can't remember their names). But, they showed me that there are some wonderful musicians in England that don't play corny music and consider it good stuff. Players or teachers like these great jazz guys are the guys to look for if you have serious wish to study great music. Good luck!

 

[pedro]

At the risk of jumping into the deep end of the pool. If I were in England looking for a good teacher I might try (long shot to be sure) to contact Dave Holland. Yea he's probably too busy to respond, and I'm not sure if he even lives in the UK anymore but you never know.

 

[jallenbass]

At the risk of jumping into the deep end of the pool. If I were in England looking for a good teacher I might try (long shot to be sure) to contact Dave Holland. Yea he's probably too busy to respond, and I'm not sure if he even lives in the UK anymore but you never know.

Doesn't he live in Boston?

 

[Feral Feline]

Great debates in the thread so far (I'm only on page 13 or so), but I can't leave this without commenting about where academia meets performance:

Check out this study on how a GOOD musical education increases test scores in other subjects.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

From the article about the study: “If you’re in math, nobody around you cares if you get the right answer. If you don’t get it right it does not impact their lives at all. If you’re in band, it does impact their lives,” said Christopher Johnson, professor of music and associate dean of the School of Fine Arts, University of Kansas.

Well, I care about people's math skills (I have none, I'm mathophobic, which may explain my poor music timing). I care about other people's math skills because when I take my medicine, I want it to be the right concoction mixed up by the drug company, the right amount distributed by the pharmacy and administered correctly by my nurse, because it does impact my life. My sister had a chemo needle inserted incorrectly and the chem&mical burns melted her hands not her cancerous mound.

Somebody in the band hitting C# when it should be C natural isn't going to kill anyone (under most circumstances).

 

[pedro]

Doesn't he live in Boston?

Yeah I have no idea but that's where I would start. I mean even if he does live in Boston he might know somebody. And if he doesn't I'd probably check out his bio and see where he studied.

 

[aidan784]

Cheers fellas, will look into the links and stuff, ive never actually listened to dave holland much hmm... Im going to try and keep the musical conversation going, jeff who are more of your favourite musicians? I know you love keith jarrett and you're bill evans work (i'm only just starting to listen to jazz for academic purposes and loved everything about his playing on kind of blue)... But who are some others? Sax players or guitarists? etc... Just out of interest cheers.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

England is not a great place for good music teachers! Musical things don't generally fly in academia over there.

Wow what a statement, since music can be learned to excellent standards, but not really applied to Jazz, should that statement be about finding jazz instruction or am i just missing the point that you keep saying that music academia and art are two seperate things.
The UK produces great music in many forms, more so than most countries, so a genre has to be keep fresh and interesting to hold attention.
Again i find you "opinion" presented as fact way off base, you need to live and work in this country before you can make such a statement.

 

[JeffBerlin]

At the risk of jumping into the deep end of the pool. If I were in England looking for a good teacher I might try (long shot to be sure) to contact Dave Holland. Yea he's probably too busy to respond, and I'm not sure if he even lives in the UK anymore but you never know.

There is a guy named Zoltan Dekany who is a terrific bassist. I think that he would be a good guy to look up for lessons. I haven't seen him in years, but I remember him as a great teacher and player. I think that he lives in Leeds. As I mentioned, England's general approach toward academics is not focused on musicall improvement, but rather on the performance of music via all the things that you guys know that I reject. Look for the great jazz guys and they can guide you to the great music teachers. Don't ask the advice of rockers, blues guys, rap, alternative, or any of these styles because their interest is in performance, not harmony or academic musical content. Jazz is a very difficult music to perform unless one knows music and how to represent it on their instrument, which makes it a great msuci to regard. Good luck!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Cheers fellas, will look into the links and stuff, ive never actually listened to dave holland much hmm... Im going to try and keep the musical conversation going, jeff who are more of your favourite musicians? I know you love keith jarrett and you're bill evans work (i'm only just starting to listen to jazz for academic purposes and loved everything about his playing on kind of blue)... But who are some others? Sax players or guitarists? etc... Just out of interest cheers.

Dave is a great player. If you wish to learn from him, buy his CD's and imitate what you hear. But, if you wish to learn music, then find a guy who can teach it.

 

[pedro]

Dave is a great player. If you wish to learn from him, buy his CD's and imitate what you hear. But, if you wish to learn music, then find a guy who can teach it.

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting lessons with Dave but merely that he might know a good teacher.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

As I mentioned, England's general approach toward academics is not focused on musicall improvement, but rather on the performance of music via all the things that you guys know that I reject.

So the Royal Collage of Music and its associate Collages around the UK, not just England, are not focused on musical improvement?

England in size, if we compare it to certains state in the U.S. or countries in European mainland is very small and population centres can be concentrated.
Music collages cover England from the south to the north and the east to the west, so music education is there for all. Preformance related studies in music are there as well if they want to be studied.
All, i believe, are grant orientated, or can be studied at with various amounts of state, lottery, or sponsored funding.

So this idea you have, please feel free to reply with so verification or where this idea comes from.