Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[JeffBerlin]

WOW!

Hi Jeff. I don't know if you remember, but in the old thread I asked you about the principles of good time - and in another post you mentioned that the academic way to learn good time was to subdivide.

I the past week I practiced (not even with my bass), to tap my foot on the 1,2,3,4 and singing and clapping the 16ths. No metronome.

I'm a completely changed player. I can feel not only the beats, but also all the offbeats.

I went to my bass lesson today and my teacher said he had never seen anyone develop good time in such a short period of time. He was totally blown away too. He is a very experienced teacher who has taught at the conservatoriums here in Denmark, so one must assume that he knows what he is talking about.

I'm an example that good time can be learned without a metronome.

Thank you very much, Jeff.

The proof is always in the pudding. You are a guy who does, not talks, about improving. I am so happy for you that you are developing your musicality. The truth is, what I suggested to you is a piece of cake. I have loads of methods that are 100% guaranteed to help you improve and I am sure that your teachers will have lots of good musical advice as well. Congratulations and keep up the good work. Remember to always subdivide your eighth notes or any other bar that contains rhythmical notation. Just do it out of time if you need to, and repeat the exercises this way until you feel that you can stop counting. Eventually, if you continue to learn like this, you won't need to count out loud, but you will always feel the subdivided rhythm. Best of all, this ability will last for life. Again, I am so happy for you. Isn't growing in music a wonderful thing?????

 

[fahrendorff]

The proof is always in the pudding. You are a guy who does, not talks, about improving. I am so happy for you that you are developing your musicality. The truth is, what I suggested to you is a piece of cake. I have loads of methods that are 100% guaranteed to help you improve and I am sure that your teachers will have lots of good musical advice as well. Congratulations and keep up the good work. Remember! DO IT! Don't talk about it! Remember to always subdivide your eighth notes or any other bar that contains rhythmical notation. Just do it out of time if you need to, and repeat the exercises this way until you feel that you can stop counting. Eventually, if you continue to learn like this, you won't need to count out loud, but you will always feel the subdivided rhythm. Best of all, this ability will last for life. Again, I am so happy for you. Isn't growing in music a wonderful thing?????

It's fantastic. I'm so thrilled. The first thing I did after my lessons was to call my girlfriend (she is classical pianist, so she actually cares) and she later said I sounded like a guy who won the lottery.

Again, thank you.

 

[JeffBerlin]

It's fantastic. I'm so thrilled. The first thing I did after my lessons was to call my girlfriend (she is classical pianist, so she actually cares) and she later said I sounded like a guy who won the lottery.

Again, thank you.

This reward is available to everybody who does the work to earn it. Your time will continue to improve and your sense of note identification improves as well. But remember, as you improve, this opens up new things to fix. Actually I find this fun because this way music will never be boring, never to be repeated all the time. New things move us closer and closer to new musical expression. Keep it up and let me know if you need any other kind of advice. I am quite proud of you.

 

[Curley Shadow]

What is your opinion on the musical education kids are receiving these days in public school?
I got a pretty good basic music education when I was in school (60's-70's).

I found that music education is profoundly influenced by the political process that public ed is subject to and the intellectual capabilities of the management. My orchestral director job and program was cut several times by various persons, but the person who ruined music ed in our city was an elementary PE coach who the buffoons in charge made music and arts supervisor. He proceeded to cut music programs in favor of sports since it was his opinion that if it couldn't be played at half time, it was useless. Sadly, this will profoundly influence the direction of music in our city and state for generations to come. I tried but failed to bring these less than stellar intellects to reason so I got out as I couldn't take the damage I saw being done and I felt that I could do greater things than argue with idiots. By the way, I am a veteran professional musician, having played in most genres of music including symphonic music and am now an administrator at a community college where I am implementing a string orchestra. This did put me in a position where I could work to remove the buffooons and helped to do so, but not before some irreparable damage was done to our public music education programs. Lesson is that there is a great need for some very capable, creative and musically knowledgeable persons to become high level administrators in public ed for it starts from the top.
Regards,
CS

 

[JeffBerlin]

Kudos to you, Mr. Berlin, for walking fully into the fray and I appreciate the thought, detail and time you are putting into your discussions here.

Some of the best teachers and most influential people I've known have also been very direct, opinionated, outspoken and unapologetic about their views. While many people may feel that sort of attitude and presentation are unpleasant or unfriendly, it's never really phased me and as a result, I've been able to learn some really valuable things by ignoring the presentation and listening to the substance.

I'm apologetic for blanket indictments. If some wish to regard other methods of learning as meaningful, then I wish them well. But, I know when things aren't meaningful and I know when people turn their backs on the truth. But, these things are always their choices and I won't do anything anymore other than standing for what I believe are good musical choices. If people ignore this, it isn't me that's getting hurt in the process.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I found that music education is profoundly influenced by the political process that public ed is subject to and the intellectual capabilities of the management. My orchestral director job and program was cut several times by various persons, but the person who ruined music ed in our city was an elementary PE coach who the buffoons in charge made music and arts supervisor. He proceeded to cut music programs in favor of sports since it was his opinion that if it couldn't be played at half time, it was useless. Sadly, this will profoundly influence the direction of music in our city and state for generations to come. I tried but failed to bring these less than stellar intellects to reason so I got out as I couldn't take the damage I saw being done and I felt that I could do greater things than argue with idiots. By the way, I am a veteran professional musician, having played in most genres of music including symphonic music and am now an administrator at a community college where I am implementing a string orchestra. This did put me in a position where I could work to remove the buffooons and helped to do so, but not before some irreparable damage was done to our public music education programs. Lesson is that there is a great need for some very capable, creative and musically knowledgeable persons to become high level administrators in public ed for it starts from the top.
Regards,
CS

Your comments are very interesting. As long as there are people like you who are standing up for a valid music education in our schools, maybe then it won't go away entirely, nor become polluted by incompetency that so many seem to tolerate. Good luck! Even a community college can be an oasis of great music, if the right man at the helm insists that it become so.

 

[eggfan]

I remember my first piano teacher, Piero Weiss, who is now at Peabody. He not only didn't assign scales and arpeggios to practice, he wouldn't let me practice them. We would practice pieces from the standard classical repertoire, each one chosen carefully and specifically from the music library. He would listen to me play what I'd learned each week, and we'd discuss it and he'd offer corrections and insights, often by playing an example himself. Only thing I didn't like is that if I stopped in the middle and had trouble getting restarted, he got really irritated (or seemed to, anyway). I froze up easily when that happened. Over time, I've learned to appreciate his approach, and it seems to connect with much of what I'm reading here, and I'm rethinking my practicing in light of it.
Thanks!

 

[fdeck]

I found that music education is profoundly influenced by the political process that public ed is subject to and the intellectual capabilities of the management. My orchestral director job and program was cut several times by various persons, but the person who ruined music ed in our city was an elementary PE coach who the buffoons in charge made music and arts supervisor. He proceeded to cut music programs in favor of sports since it was his opinion that if it couldn't be played at half time, it was useless. Sadly, this will profoundly influence the direction of music in our city and state for generations to come. I tried but failed to bring these less than stellar intellects to reason so I got out as I couldn't take the damage I saw being done and I felt that I could do greater things than argue with idiots. By the way, I am a veteran professional musician, having played in most genres of music including symphonic music and am now an administrator at a community college where I am implementing a string orchestra. This did put me in a position where I could work to remove the buffooons and helped to do so, but not before some irreparable damage was done to our public music education programs. Lesson is that there is a great need for some very capable, creative and musically knowledgeable persons to become high level administrators in public ed for it starts from the top.
Regards,
CS

The public schools went through this in the town where I grew up. The purpose of the music program was to field a marching band for the football games. The string program was abandoned when funding got just a bit tight. Later attempts to revive it were dismissed as "elitist," as was an attempt to add calculus to the math curriculum. The math teacher agreed to hold a calculus class at 7 AM -- basically on his own time -- for about a half dozen students who eagerly signed up.

The bizarre irony is that because the string programs got the axe, the few kids who took private string lessons got all of the opportunities to play out in the community. So I was a gigging musician before I could drive a car. And when they finally threw all of the string instruments in the Dumpster, I grabbed a Kay bass that was in pieces, and restored it. Today, playing that bass is what pays for me to put my own kids through music lessons.

 

[Billnc]

Jeff, (and others) regarding the learning rythms out of time. I've put this to the test with my younger students, everystep of the way with them is slow going, but they do a bit every week and the kids get good in time. I will have them count and tap the written rythm. When they can tap it we read it counting and playing slowly, if the student needs to slow down while playing it it is ok and they are counting according to pick stroke no matter how slow. The thing is, it comes together quickly. If they can tap it it is internalized, if they can't play it it is simply mechanical and they will get the coordination together through repetition.

My experience anyway.

 

[onlyclave]

The public schools went through this in the town where I grew up. The purpose of the music program was to field a marching band for the football games. The string program was abandoned when funding got just a bit tight. Later attempts to revive it were dismissed as "elitist," as was an attempt to add calculus to the math curriculum. The math teacher agreed to hold a calculus class at 7 AM -- basically on his own time -- for about a half dozen students who eagerly signed up.

The bizarre irony is that because the string programs got the axe, the few kids who took private string lessons got all of the opportunities to play out in the community. So I was a gigging musician before I could drive a car. And when they finally threw all of the string instruments in the Dumpster, I grabbed a Kay bass that was in pieces, and restored it. Today, playing that bass is what pays for me to put my own kids through music lessons.

No pics, no bass. You know the rule

 

[slybass3000]

Thank YOU! Incidently, here is a question for you and for everyone else. How many notes are there in music, not scales, but in typical western music?

There are 12 differents pitches that can be written in about 20 ways if we include the enharmonic spelling and the double alterations.

What is your point?

Sly

 

[John Wentzien]

Your comments are very interesting. As long as there are people like you who are standing up for a valid music education in our schools, maybe then it won't go away entirely, nor become polluted by incompetency that so many seem to tolerate. Good luck! Even a community college can be an oasis of great music, if the right man at the helm insists that it become so.

Check out this study on how a GOOD musical education increases test scores in other subjects.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[fdeck]

No pics, no bass. You know the rule

 

[Stumpy]

I really don't know anything about how they teach in schools. All I ever heard was that programs were being cut. But I don't know how true this is either.

I know how I teach in the school.

I teach music, not just vocal or instrumental, but both. I have beginning band students that are hacking their way through music fundamentals (names of notes on the grand staff, dynamic markings and what they mean, note and rest values and how to play them accurately, articulations for the beginners are a short list - but they have enough to create music - not noise, and they are required to learn up to 4 b's and 4 sharps - scales/keys prior to passing from beginning band status). I have three bass players that are learning every note up the neck to the 12th fret and how to play their scales in at least three positions.

All of my classes are required to learn the major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales. They add more each year as they progress through the program. By the time they graduate they know all 48 scales (12 x 4 scale types) for passage. They will also know several other scales of their choosing. (their favorites are the blues scales and some hybrid scales - bebop minor etc.)

Further they learn how to read music. I do not allow tabs in any of my classes. Notes, chord changes (jazz), and one of the most important things for the bass players is the groove. My motto is "no groove, no food."

My singers, horn players, guitar/bass players, ... all need to learn to read music and have the ability to play any genre I give them for a particular show or series of shows.

You might think that this is pure Nazi-ism on my part. Maybe it is. But they can feed themselves with their musical skills, if need be, and they can play with nearly anyone that they want and hold their own. They can audition for colleges/universities and pass those auditions and continue through college and get the rest of the skill sets that they need to be a professional musician, if they so choose.

My vocal jazz groups routinely get: swing, bebop, blues, latin, a capella charts of varying styles, a little rock and a little pop.

The adv digital media students get: covers semester one - to learn how the pro's write (I base their choice selection on the top 5 charts and the top 100 songs on those charts - Billboard, CMT, BET, etc.). They are required to perform that semester and be an entrant in our rock festival with 1 original tune between two covers. They can not compete but they do perform and get graded just like everyone else.

The second semester the students are required to write an original tune. They have to hire the other students in the class and get them to rehearse, write parts if need be, and then record their songs. Those songs are sent to a producer in Hollywood (a friend of mine) and he gives them positive, constructive criticism on their work. Then we go back and fix things as needed and then burn a CD to present to the producer...he comes to the school and does a final critique in an open forum. He will play the CD, make notes, then talk through the process of what the students might do to make something better. He even offered a distribution deal to a couple of our students.

Our students are not perfect. Far from it. But they are getting the real deal. I got the real deal in high school and I believe that my students deserve better than a place to hang out and just "play guitar, dude!"

I have never had an issue with the truth. It is something that sets a person free to understand what it is that everyone else is thinking and how they are actually perceived in the real world. I tell my students that I will never tell them a lie. I might ask if they want me to sugar it up a little bit...but... Also, I let them know that I, and others like me "micromanage" them during rehearsals and class times so that they get it right every time. Not just once in a while... but every single time.

I don't know if I am rare in the US. I know that all of my music teacher friends are the same way with their programs.

Finally, yeah I can talk a great deal, it is up to the student to decide to do the work. Cliche or not...you can drag the mule to water, but you surely can't make him/her drink.

Ok. Done for now.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

OK, I got bored. I did your exercise with Db and then with Eb, then I took the Db melodic minor scale a went through the diatonic harmony by arpeggiating up from the root for the tonic, down from the 7th for the two chord, alternating up and down like that till I got a little more bored and wanted to work on arco. None of this is working on timefeel.

Your turn.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Oh, I don't know if it doesn't count if only did them in closed position? Since it didn't really seem that much different than the chord work I was doing with my teacher a few years back, I figure if I did all that in open position as well, it kinda got covered.

 

[Jeffrey Avrin]

Hey, Jeff! Thanks for making an appearance here; That was quite a statement you made in your opening. I am very much with you. The time I spent studying with you when you first opened the school in Clearwater has served me phenomenally well, and truthfully, though perhaps at times I kinda wished that the educational viewpoint you were (and always have been) pushing to me wasn't really true, experience has certainly proven you correct. I love your work and admire your dedication. Thanks for being a true guiding light for us.

 

[Roy Vogt]

OK, so I have to prepare (Beverly Sills would say I "get" to prepare) to do a featured concert at NAMM on Jan. 13 and 3 days at The Learning Dock booth (the fine folks who market my Teach Me Bass Guitar series). So....I'm going to be my own guinea pig and try Jeff's approaches to see how that helps me get my chops up for this gig.
Day 1: Practiced David Baker play-alongs for Jamey Aebersold's "Time to Play Music" CD. Definitely kickin' my tail (so it's factual, harmonically rich music, i.e. Jazz). One is in the style of Sugar ("Groovitis") while one is a Bossa with iim7b5-V7b9 cycles ("Freddieish"). There were lines I couldn't play with the playalong tracks. Resisted the urge to practice them with a click or drum machine. Practiced slowly in free time-and found a much better fingering for a couple of tricky passages by doing so. While I was sorta playing in time with the track, I had another fingering that I automatically went to that was nowhere near as good as what I found playing out of time.
After working on this stuff for 90 minutes, my hands were good and fast.....
I'm going to try this approach for the 6 weeks prior to the Show and see how it works. So far so good
BTW, at the end of the practice session I could play everything in time and musically with the practice tracks. Can't wait to work through all of these David Baker etudes (the All Bird ones are total bears because of their speed). NONE of this is related to the music I'm playing on the gig (my original stuff).

 

[JeffBerlin]

I remember my first piano teacher, Piero Weiss, who is now at Peabody. He not only didn't assign scales and arpeggios to practice, he wouldn't let me practice them. We would practice pieces from the standard classical repertoire, each one chosen carefully and specifically from the music library. He would listen to me play what I'd learned each week, and we'd discuss it and he'd offer corrections and insights, often by playing an example himself. Only thing I didn't like is that if I stopped in the middle and had trouble getting restarted, he got really irritated (or seemed to, anyway). I froze up easily when that happened. Over time, I've learned to appreciate his approach, and it seems to connect with much of what I'm reading here, and I'm rethinking my practicing in light of it.
Thanks!

Scales are one of the overly stressed approaches to tonality. The reason that some bass teachers emphasize teaching them is because it is all that they know about music to teach. There are lots of other equally important issue about learning that many students will never get from their teachers unless their teachers seek out these methods to add to their teaching curriculum.

It sounds as if your teacher was a lot like some of mine when I was a kid; they'd get a little irritated with me too when I didn't play something to their liking. But, I could survive this. No harm done, and I wasn't denigrated nor put down. Even as a kid, I knew that these teachers were looking out for me and put way more attention into my lessons than many teachers put into theirs today. I would very much like to see this change.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff, (and others) regarding the learning rythms out of time. I've put this to the test with my younger students, everystep of the way with them is slow going, but they do a bit every week and the kids get good in time. I will have them count and tap the written rythm. When they can tap it we read it counting and playing slowly, if the student needs to slow down while playing it it is ok and they are counting according to pick stroke no matter how slow. The thing is, it comes together quickly. If they can tap it it is internalized, if they can't play it it is simply mechanical and they will get the coordination together through repetition.

My experience anyway.

Frankly, it would be everybody's experience if they learned music this way. It simply is a perfect way to learn music, and to learn to play it in a steady time feel. It just never fails because this method gives permission to everybody to make mistakes and then fix them. As your students tap their foot or count in some subdivisional way, they are adding a little concious attention to the time, the subdivided elements to accompany the notes. It is a perfect formula for developing an internal sense of time. It simply cannot fail.

Let me know how it goes with your students. Thanks.