This is more of a Trivia question. There are actually about a hundred usable notes in music, not just the 12 that people think there are. Any octave note up or down is a different pitch even if it shares the same name. A normal piano has 88 notes on it. A symphony orchestra goes beyond that This is why music can be so complicated; there's a lot of notes to deal with.
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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed
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This is more of a Trivia question. There are actually about a hundred usable notes in music, not just the 12 that people think there are. Any octave note up or down is a different pitch even if it shares the same name. A normal piano has 88 notes on it. A symphony orchestra goes beyond that This is why music can be so complicated; there's a lot of notes to deal with.
Great article. What I am happy about is that the truth about valid music education is being discussed and maybe embraced here more and more. It is just silly for anyone to dispute the fact that music is an art that, if lessons are involved, they need to be quality information, not just based on performance issues which everybody solves at some time or another anyway, or metronome related exercises which insist on performance of your lessons rather than having the time to learn them. Isn't this what a lesson is for? To learn?
I am very happy that things are moving along here. If some still dis-agree, then please ask your questions and we can continue to discuss them.
P.S. I am in Italy with Dennis Chambers this Saturday for two weeks. I probably won't be back here until I am finished with the gigs. Please, whoever the moderator is, could you keep this thread open? Thanks!
I know how I teach in the school.
I teach music, not just vocal or instrumental, but both. I have beginning band students that are hacking their way through music fundamentals (names of notes on the grand staff, dynamic markings and what they mean, note and rest values and how to play them accurately, articulations for the beginners are a short list - but they have enough to create music - not noise, and they are required to learn up to 4 b's and 4 sharps - scales/keys prior to passing from beginning band status). I have three bass players that are learning every note up the neck to the 12th fret and how to play their scales in at least three positions.
All of my classes are required to learn the major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales. They add more each year as they progress through the program. By the time they graduate they know all 48 scales (12 x 4 scale types) for passage. They will also know several other scales of their choosing. (their favorites are the blues scales and some hybrid scales - bebop minor etc.)
Further they learn how to read music. I do not allow tabs in any of my classes. Notes, chord changes (jazz), and one of the most important things for the bass players is the groove. My motto is "no groove, no food."
My singers, horn players, guitar/bass players, ... all need to learn to read music and have the ability to play any genre I give them for a particular show or series of shows.
You might think that this is pure Nazi-ism on my part. Maybe it is. But they can feed themselves with their musical skills, if need be, and they can play with nearly anyone that they want and hold their own. They can audition for colleges/universities and pass those auditions and continue through college and get the rest of the skill sets that they need to be a professional musician, if they so choose.
My vocal jazz groups routinely get: swing, bebop, blues, latin, a capella charts of varying styles, a little rock and a little pop.
The adv digital media students get: covers semester one - to learn how the pro's write (I base their choice selection on the top 5 charts and the top 100 songs on those charts - Billboard, CMT, BET, etc.). They are required to perform that semester and be an entrant in our rock festival with 1 original tune between two covers. They can not compete but they do perform and get graded just like everyone else.
The second semester the students are required to write an original tune. They have to hire the other students in the class and get them to rehearse, write parts if need be, and then record their songs. Those songs are sent to a producer in Hollywood (a friend of mine) and he gives them positive, constructive criticism on their work. Then we go back and fix things as needed and then burn a CD to present to the producer...he comes to the school and does a final critique in an open forum. He will play the CD, make notes, then talk through the process of what the students might do to make something better. He even offered a distribution deal to a couple of our students.
Our students are not perfect. Far from it. But they are getting the real deal. I got the real deal in high school and I believe that my students deserve better than a place to hang out and just "play guitar, dude!"
I have never had an issue with the truth. It is something that sets a person free to understand what it is that everyone else is thinking and how they are actually perceived in the real world. I tell my students that I will never tell them a lie. I might ask if they want me to sugar it up a little bit...but... Also, I let them know that I, and others like me "micromanage" them during rehearsals and class times so that they get it right every time. Not just once in a while... but every single time.
I don't know if I am rare in the US. I know that all of my music teacher friends are the same way with their programs.
Finally, yeah I can talk a great deal, it is up to the student to decide to do the work. Cliche or not...you can drag the mule to water, but you surely can't make him/her drink.
Ok. Done for now.
You are my kind of guy down the line! You are not a Nazi; you are a Seargent! BIG DIFFERENCE!
Hi Jeff. Glad to hear from you. I am very happy that you got something positive from my way of teaching. Truthfully, I came up with very little on my own. Most of what I got, I got from some of the greatest musicians and teachers in the world. This is why I lament how dug in some guys are about what they believe are good learning methods. Time will prove me right because time has already proved my teachers right. But, by then, these guys will be past the time to do something about it. I regret this.
Six months into it! Works like a charm, also the philosophy of fixing a mistake every time and having patience with yourself. Sometimes a student will take about 5 minutes with a string skip or something, it'll seem like an eternity, but slow and gentle they'll get it (talking a lot about guitar really). I'll ask a student if they're "with me" meaning they can take as long as they need to work out the problem with guidance, if they take along time ok, if they lose focus quickly equally ok, on to something else.
I've had good luck with younger students, I have no real idea why, I certainly do not have the "training" background for it. But the principles you mention have been put to the test with younger kids and they work. Of course they work with the older students too. I've had the backing of parents who are trained musicians so things have been scrutinized closely.
Tolja! Tolja! Metronomes get in the way. You are finding out that time comes from knowing how to play, not to be pushed into keeping up with a click. Biggest myth in the entire bass world and it is still being perpetuated by well-intentioned, but unskilled guys who don't know how music is best learned.
Keep up your comments Roy. You could change a lot of minds here. Friends, read Roy's comments religiously. He is "Kansas City" that is, he is the guy where the commercials are tested to see if they would go over big across the country.
Jeff,
I really don't understand why everyone complains when you insist they must learn music and must put in work. I first started music in 4th grade in the 1960s. I played the clarinet. We had to learn to read music, had to learn scales, to sight read new music, etc. It took a lot of time outside the classroom to perfect tricky passages in new exercises and in new songs that were played as part of the school orchestra, woodwind ensembles and the marching band. We all practiced the tunes so that we were ready to go at band practice where the key was for the music teacher to get us to play together as we already knew our parts. None of us every used a metronome for practice. In fact, I was never aware they existed. Timing came through tapping one's foot to the music and following the band leaders baton.
I started to play bass in the early 1970s and used the same principles I was taught to use when I learned the clarinet. Having this foundation has made it so easy to communicate with my band mates and to learn new stuff. Without a solid musical foundation I find most "musicians" are limited in what they can reach for and in how they can communicate with other band members.
I really don't understand why everyone complains when you insist they must learn music and must put in work. I first started music in 4th grade in the 1960s. I played the clarinet. We had to learn to read music, had to learn scales, to sight read new music, etc. It took a lot of time outside the classroom to perfect tricky passages in new exercises and in new songs that were played as part of the school orchestra, woodwind ensembles and the marching band. We all practiced the tunes so that we were ready to go at band practice where the key was for the music teacher to get us to play together as we already knew our parts. None of us every used a metronome for practice. In fact, I was never aware they existed. Timing came through tapping one's foot to the music and following the band leaders baton.
I started to play bass in the early 1970s and used the same principles I was taught to use when I learned the clarinet. Having this foundation has made it so easy to communicate with my band mates and to learn new stuff. Without a solid musical foundation I find most "musicians" are limited in what they can reach for and in how they can communicate with other band members.
People complain when I insist that they learn well because their teachers often don't insist the same thing. Neither do well known bass players. Neither do some columnists in most bass magazines. Low musical aspirations are not only a part of today's musical ethic, they are applauded. Want proof? One guy was asked if he could read music. His answer was, "Not enough to hurt my playing!" People loved this comment. Bob Geldorf supported learning only three chords because he felt that other chords were superfluous. People wrote in letters of praise. I know because I read them. Low standards are the method of choice for many musicians in the 2000's, perpetuated by the low standards that were supported by so many in the late 20th Century.
So, when I go against the grain (I still believe that, as a group, all these people are wrong about the educational advice that they are dispensing) people naturally get mad at me. I'm called egotistic and arrogant because I won't toe the line like others are doing. This is a demonstration of inexperience on a grand scale. It is the group mad at the individual for going against what they believe.
Gandhi said something that rings eternal for me, "Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth!"
The logic of learning this way can be used in every other new learning experience. Has anyone seen a new tennis player try to hit the ball properly? Clumsy and "out of time" right? But, everybody must "hit the ball" in the same slow "out of time" manner so that they can learn how to "hit the ball" in an in-time manner as they improve. Again, nobody, not one person even could find a flaw with my question, "What is best learned in time?" Nobody could answer this because there is no answer. If this philosophy applies to EVERYTHING, then why is music exempt?
Mr. Berlin, I'd like to hear you address one of Ed Fuqua's questions: If a person uses a piano to train their ear to be able to hear - or internalize - intervals and harmony, especially the complex chords found in jazz, wouldn't they also want to use something (like a metronome) to internalize good time-keeping? I am not talking about learning a new piece or musical concept with a metronome on, but taking something that is already under your fingers and playing it against a pulse. Or playing a groove or walking a jazz bassline against a metronome.
I personally used to play very on top of the beat, to the point where I was sometimes pushing it and even rushing. My funk grooves were not that funky and forget about swung rhythms. After putting in some work with a metronome set with clicks on 2 and 4, it wasn't long before my notes were sinking into the groove and laying back. Things I played sounded and felt so much better. Since I've put in this work I've got many compliments from drummers I've played with about how good things feel when we play.
As much as I may disagree with you about metronomes and time (and I'm not too sure about that "pioneer of slap bass" statement on your website) I want to say I have been recently working with a chord tone exercise that you printed in Bass Player magazine from August 1998 and its already opening my ears up.
Thank you for your time.
I personally used to play very on top of the beat, to the point where I was sometimes pushing it and even rushing. My funk grooves were not that funky and forget about swung rhythms. After putting in some work with a metronome set with clicks on 2 and 4, it wasn't long before my notes were sinking into the groove and laying back. Things I played sounded and felt so much better. Since I've put in this work I've got many compliments from drummers I've played with about how good things feel when we play.
As much as I may disagree with you about metronomes and time (and I'm not too sure about that "pioneer of slap bass" statement on your website) I want to say I have been recently working with a chord tone exercise that you printed in Bass Player magazine from August 1998 and its already opening my ears up.
Thank you for your time.
Hi Jeff,
All I can say is that you have found your way to teach bass like you do while others like me found their ways as well. Mine is based on metronome and scales in priority plus a hundreds of others stuff and it works too. I form professional bassists for 25 years already at college and universities.
I bet you would put 10 surgeons in 10 different op rooms with the same tools to do the exact same surgery and would end up with different approaches and wouldn't use the exact same tools as others for the same job IMO.
I'm lucky because where i teach I audition them and accept only the ones that I think they can succeed in my program. It is not because they have the money to enroll that I will accept them if they don't fit my prerequisite. It might sounds elitist but this is how it works in real life.
I'm always learning and I'll revise your points and see if i understand the meaning of it and if I can use them effectively
Best regards,
Sly
All I can say is that you have found your way to teach bass like you do while others like me found their ways as well. Mine is based on metronome and scales in priority plus a hundreds of others stuff and it works too. I form professional bassists for 25 years already at college and universities.
I bet you would put 10 surgeons in 10 different op rooms with the same tools to do the exact same surgery and would end up with different approaches and wouldn't use the exact same tools as others for the same job IMO.
I'm lucky because where i teach I audition them and accept only the ones that I think they can succeed in my program. It is not because they have the money to enroll that I will accept them if they don't fit my prerequisite. It might sounds elitist but this is how it works in real life.
I'm always learning and I'll revise your points and see if i understand the meaning of it and if I can use them effectively
Best regards,
Sly
If wheat is a grain and is good to eat, then wouldn't one assume that grass is also good to eat since it comes from the ground as wheat does?
On paper, one can confuse issues that look good when drawn up, but don't apply in real life. A piano is a musical instrument. A metronome is a device that clicks. If you look closely at a metronome, it is providing a time event that doesn't exist anywhere in music. Even Bach is badly represented by young bass players as it was never meant to be played in a hard unyielding quarter-note-type manner. A piano provides tonality which all music contains. A pitch is eternal! An A is always an A 440 or 442 or not. But rhythm is always, forever, non-specific. Bernstein's interpretation of, say, Beethoven's 5th is way different than Stokowski's version. There simply is no commonality in time interpretation as there absolutely is in playing the notes. Therefore, time comes from interpretation. Counting subdivides the time and 100% without fail develop good time without a click. In your case, I suspect that you may not have the musical experience to know this. Try a great music teacher and learn well for a while. You won't be sorry.
But they all learned the same way in med school. That's the point! You're still stuck on "performance" not "academics".
jeez,i wish we could see beyond this endless argument over metronomes and dig into the other aspects of jeff's abilities,which he seems willing to share if we would just ask a different question now and then....
Well may be not. They come from different schools and teachers !!!
They learn the same basics different ways.
Sly
- Dec 13, 1999
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- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Basically Jeff's "argument" boils down to " I'm right and you're wrong", and he can't be bothered to support that statement with anything else but " you must not have very much musical experience". Well that's no more effective than when it comes from a 5 year old. What's next, you going to hold your breath?
Jeff, I'm curious about how you teach improvisation, some nuts and bolts (and you can tear it apart) of how I would approach a beginning student in Autumn Leaves. Can't really get into subtlties on a forum but.. and for brevity lets say it's 8 measures Cmi F7 Bb Eb Ami7b5 D7 Gm Gm.
by the steps
1. You can play G Pentatonic minor throught the whole thing.
2. You can play 2 measures C pentatonic minor and 2 measures G pentatonic minor and repeat (through Pat Martinos minor substitutions)
3. Learn the dominant arpeggios and add them
4. Learn the major arpeggios and add them
5. Learn the mi7b5 arpeggios add that
6. Use scale tones
It's an approach of using what you already know to play the whole song and gradually adding information to actually play through all the changes. (and again talking guitar or horn, I'd imagine a bass player who could walk the changes would have a solid grasp of the chord tones already, these are not quite as obvious on guitar or a horn)
by the steps
1. You can play G Pentatonic minor throught the whole thing.
2. You can play 2 measures C pentatonic minor and 2 measures G pentatonic minor and repeat (through Pat Martinos minor substitutions)
3. Learn the dominant arpeggios and add them
4. Learn the major arpeggios and add them
5. Learn the mi7b5 arpeggios add that
6. Use scale tones
It's an approach of using what you already know to play the whole song and gradually adding information to actually play through all the changes. (and again talking guitar or horn, I'd imagine a bass player who could walk the changes would have a solid grasp of the chord tones already, these are not quite as obvious on guitar or a horn)
amen to that!!
as far as i can remember nobody, including jeff, ever said: if you use a metronome you´ll never become a good musician. he just claims to have some lessons under his belt that might help your musical growth, including time, that should be done without one... ....take it or leave it.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,736
- 8,941
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Well, unfortunately no, Jeff likes to frame the discussion in those terms but he has actually said in this thread and many others that one can't learn to play with good time using a metronome. Since I have direct personal experience that this is not so, I continue to raise this point. Again, I have absolutely no argument with Jeff's claim that he can teach someone good time without ever using a metronome. I have to imagine that some of those people will show up at gigs and sessions I'm on and I can judge the efficacy of that approach for myself.
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