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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

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#281
I think one of the worst things going on is calling the scale in position a mode. All 7 modes are in each of the positions.

Jeff, don't you think knowing a scale makes reading easier? I fully understand the concept of chord tones for improv, but knowing the scale and it's fingerings makes reading abit easier doesn't it?
 
#282
Billnc said:
I think one of the worst things going on is calling the scale in position a mode. All 7 modes are in each of the positions.

Jeff, don't you think knowing a scale makes reading easier? I fully understand the concept of chord tones for improv, but knowing the scale and it's fingerings makes reading abit easier doesn't it?
Click to expand...

Reading is a broad term. Because scales rarely come with rhythms or anything other than a horizontal approach both up and down, then I wouldn't regard them as anything more and a light reading music. Reading employs all the means that goes with the music, bar lines, time signature, key signature, and all the rhythmical articulations associated with each note. This is what reading is mostly about.
 
#283
Billnc said:
I think one of the worst things going on is calling the scale in position a mode. All 7 modes are in each of the positions.

Jeff, don't you think knowing a scale makes reading easier? I fully understand the concept of chord tones for improv, but knowing the scale and it's fingerings makes reading a bit easier doesn't it?
Click to expand...
Knowing a scale makes reading a scale easier if the written scale happens to be the one that was learned. Again, Mr. Berlin's point about making music should be applied. Scales, etc. are the vocabulary, it is what is done with the scale, written or otherwise to make music that is the issue. That being said, the vocabulary must be mastered to create the art. William Faulkner knew his vocabulary as does Jeff Berlin.
 
#285
Dear Ed,

I think tZer came up with a great explanation for this; my experience is very similar to his in general.

Do you think Clifford Brown (as well as all the other names in your post, as a matter of fact), was practicing with a metronome for the sake of improving his time, or was he just trying to see (after practicing the material inside out) if he could play the material at a certain speed consistently?

Cheers,

Alper




Ed Fuqua said:
Do we need to stick to bassists? Just off the top of my head there's that great practice tape of Clifford Brown working with a metronome, all of that great stuff with the Tristano crew -Marsh, Konitz, Sal Mosca, Sonny Dallas, Peter Ind, Connie Crothers et al - let's see at this site there's Lynn Seaton who advocates nome use. But I'll e-mail around and get a list together for you.
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#286
I think my point was missed, I promise not to beat the horse and this'll be my last post regarding this. Say a student has played pieces in a few keys and they have come to learning a new piece in G minor, why not run that scale once or twice before practicing the piece? This I think would allow the student to more quickly see fingerings etc for the music to come.
 
#287
I'm glad you're still with us, Jeff, and I'm going to keep asking questions until you stop answering them.

In your opinion, at what point does a student's unique voice start to develop? Is it from the moment they pick up the instrument, or do you think that they have to have a better understanding of music before their own style can emerge?
 
#288
Alper Yilmaz said:
Dear Ed,

I think tZer came up with a great explanation for this; my experience is very similar to his in general.

Do you think Clifford Brown (as well as all the other names in your post, as a matter of fact), was practicing with a metronome for the sake of improving his time, or was he just trying to see (after practicing the material inside out) if he could play the material at a certain speed consistently?

Cheers,

Alper
Click to expand...

If Clifford used a metronome, he used it because he didn't have a drummer to jam with. Clifford was one of the best swing trumpeters even up to today and you can't acquire that skill with a metronome.
 
#289
Billnc said:
I think my point was missed, I promise not to beat the horse and this'll be my last post regarding this. Say a student has played pieces in a few keys and they have come to learning a new piece in G minor, why not run that scale once or twice before practicing the piece? This I think would allow the student to more quickly see fingerings etc for the music to come.
Click to expand...

I suppose! I don't have any strong feelings one way or another about this, except that the music that he is practicing should speak for itself. But, if he needs to hear the tonality of, say G minor, then why not. I only stress the general non-importance or the overly stressed importance that people put onto scales.
 
#290
NickyBass said:
I'm glad you're still with us, Jeff, and I'm going to keep asking questions until you stop answering them.

In your opinion, at what point does a student's unique voice start to develop? Is it from the moment they pick up the instrument, or do you think that they have to have a better understanding of music before their own style can emerge?
Click to expand...

The absolutely last thing that any musician develops is a unique voice. After all the practice, gigs, and changing of one's mind about how they wish to sound, an original voice can emerge. But it comes unannounced and it comes not too often. Certainly it rarely comes when one imitates another music who already found their voice. One's unique voice actually comes out of denial; one stops doing what is comfortable and pursues what isn't. Miles Davis was asked by Keith Jarrett why he stopped playing ballads (Miles was once world famous for playing them). Miles answered by saying that he stopped playing ballads because he loved to play ballads so much.

Think about it because this is an astonishing statement to regard!
 
#294
With all this emphasis on academia it sounds as though you experience music in a very clinical fashion. It may be a silly question, but I was wondering if you experience music in ways that are not so clinical or academic. If you are every surprised by yourself or if everything you do is planned and executed.
 
#295
tZer said:
With all this emphasis on academia it sounds as though you experience music in a very clinical fashion. It may be a silly question, but I was wondering if you experience music in ways that are not so clinical or academic. If you are every surprised by yourself or if everything you do is planned and executed.
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Oh, sure! In the art department, it is always one big surprise after another. Yet, practicing is fun for me because I know that there are a lot of guys doing jobs that they most definitely are not happy with. I love playing so much that if I am sitting in an air conditioned room while feeling my guitar in my arms, I've nothing whatsoever to complain about.

Regarding experiencing music that isn't academic or clinical, of course! That is the goal! The good guys all practice so that they can have more vocabulary to allow the inspiration part to not seize up. It feels terrible to be in the throes of fluid playing, and then find that you can't really flow with it due to not having any idea about what to do next. It is like those dreams where you are running away from something, and the harder that you run, the slower you seem to go.

In music, I hated that sensation, and so I steadily worked for years, even decades, to keep myself moving in a steady pattern toward freedom of expression. At this time in my life, I am nowhere the bass player that I even was a year ago. All my work is coming home and the music is flowing like wine. I have more ideas than even the stuff on my new standards CD. I almost canceled releasing that recording because I play way better than that guy.
 
#297
Mr. Berlin, I can see a number of people want to ask you music ed. related questions so I will refrain from mucking up your thread with disagreements.

You did ask me to make a list of the greats who used a metronome. Like Ed said, I will go beyond just bass players.

Dave Hungate once suggested (early 90s Bass Player Column) putting a metronome on its slowest tempo and try playing along.

Tony Grey (Hiromi, John McLaughlin) said when learning a difficult part, he will play it along with a metronome and after he has played it perfectly 3 times in a row, he bumps the bpm up by 3.

Mark Eagan had a series of columns dealing with "Playing Melodically" where he instructed the reader to play the examples in time with a metronome.

Lynn Seaton (Faculty of University of North TX 1998-Present) responded to a reader on this very site and discussed metronome practice methods. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=330562

Ralph Towner instructs his students to use a metronome http://fliiby.com/file/605217/ceiw4ts63c.html (pages 10 and 11 of the PDF).

Dave Douglas: "No matter what materials you are working on its important to have a thorough rhythmic awareness. One of the biggest issues I hear in group improvisation is when musicians, both individually and collectively, are not feeling time accurately and/or collaboratively. To work on this, play your melodies (or rhythms or timbres or tunes) with the metronome, but create some challenges by periodically shifting your relationship to the pulse. That is, without changing the metronome setting, play your material faster or slower in relationship to its steady beat."

"Start with the metronome around 92 beats per minute. Begin by hearing the metronome's pulse as a quarter note. Get comfortable with that. Then play your material twice as slow by hearing the metronome clicks as eighth notes. Play it twice as fast by considering the metronome pulse as a half note. Those are three of the most basic relationships."

John McLaughlin:

I just wanted to say I totally agree that players should arm themselves with as much knowledge as possible and push themselves. I applaud you and thank you for your devotion to promoting music education. It seems we will never agree in this area and so I shall bow out.

And sorry, Larry Graham pioneered slap bass.:hiding:
 
#298
JeffBerlin said:
Scales are different than melodies. learning a melody is learning a composition. Scales are generally vague about tonality because they include several chord possibilities, something that confused a lot of bass players. Besides, scales are no more or no less as important as, say, tensions on a chord. But, if you read what bass teachers and students say, you might believe that the only exercise worthy of learning are scales. They aren't!

Can you you define what you mean by dense harmony? Do you mean more than one chord in a bar?
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By dense harmony I meant chords that contain chord-tones outside of the original key or key center.

This is what I mean by referring to key center: A lot of great melodies in Jazz are based on the major scale even if the harmony underneath brings new chord tones outside of the key center or scale. By playing one scale thru the song will help to understand the melodic sense AND the power of it. I like 3&7 as voice leading to outline the harmony as well but the one scale thing I really,really like it. I even tried "Stella" yesterday with only the major scale and I was playing notes that I wouldn't have though playing on certain chords and it sounded good and faithful to the original melody.




Sly
 
#299
No offense guys..

But how many different ways do you think you can skin a cat?...


Also it seems the less i "think" about music as regards to theory notes, scales, whatever and just play the latter almost always has a better result..

Honestly my approach is just to pick up my bass and play, listen use my ear,

I kinda agree with how victor wooten teaches...

It just seems like you guys are making music way more complicated than it needs to be...

Just my opinion...

Does anyone know what im trying to say here?
 
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