Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[JeffBerlin]

Do you ever do any workshops in the UK Jeff? I'm really keen to experience some of your teaching methods but alas the Atlantic is between us!

Link Removed

Darn ocean!!! Sometimes I'm in England. If anything develops, I will let you know by writing it here.

 

[JeffBerlin]

By dense harmony I meant chords that contain chord-tones outside of the original key or key center.

This is what I mean by referring to key center: A lot of great melodies in Jazz are based on the major scale even if the harmony underneath brings new chord tones outside of the key center or scale. By playing one scale thru the song will help to understand the melodic sense AND the power of it. I like 3&7 as voice leading to outline the harmony as well but the one scale thing I really,really like it. I even tried "Stella" yesterday with only the major scale and I was playing notes that I wouldn't have though playing on certain chords and it sounded good and faithful to the original melody.
Sly

Key centers blanket chords, they don't really specify them. Here's an example: if you play, say, a C major scale over a II V I in C, you will play notes that aren't strong choices to represent the chord because you aren't thinking chord; you are thinking convenience. On a Dmin7 you can land on a B, not a bad note, but not as strong as other notes if you were thinking chord. On G7, the note C is available if played. And why shouldn't it be played. It is a part of the key center, even if it is the weakest note to choose. And when you resolve to C, the note F, a perfectly acceptable note in this key centered performance, can be played. But, it, too, is the worst choice for representation in this chord. But, if one plays key centers, then these notes are absolutely going to be played because they are a part of the key center.

The problem is lack of specificity. You are doing something easy, not necessarily correctly. It is way easier to just learn a key center and use it, instead of individualizing the chords and representing them this way. People in the 2000's are seeking shortcuts when the 100% effective routes are sometimes ignore because they are simply too much of a problem for some guys to endeavor to learn. Key centers are a shortcut.

 

[JeffBerlin]

No offense guys..

But how many different ways do you think you can skin a cat?...


Also it seems the less i "think" about music as regards to theory notes, scales, whatever and just play the latter almost always has a better result..

Honestly my approach is just to pick up my bass and play, listen use my ear,

I kinda agree with how victor wooten teaches...

It just seems like you guys are making music way more complicated than it needs to be...

Just my opinion...

Does anyone know what im trying to say here?

The only flaw with this logic is that you will be limited to only what you have taught yourself to play. This limits your musical opportunitiesand your employment possibilities. You can't play what you don't know. Nobody can!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Thing is Victor Wooten KNOWS all his theory! He can read well. I think sometimes he does a disservice by not explaining how hard he worked his whole life at the mechanics and theory involved. He did his work!

Does he read? He always denied that he knew about music from the areas that I come from.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think if you guys listen more carefully to what Victor is about, you'll realize that a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE part of his message is the importance of learning how to get out of your own way. He's not about having all the content harmonically or whatever. He may know all of his theory, but he'll be the first to tell you that it's not an integral part of his identity. He's about making honest music out of what he can do...which is a lot. It's not the whole picture...but it's a critically important part of it.

I know for a fact that there are a large number of players out there with lots of "knowledge" and not the first clue what to do with it. IMO, ideally you have both deep content and lots of ability to use it musically. But all the content in the world without an unobstructed avenue to the ears of the listener is as good a fantasy and that's about all.

This is all true, but it doesn't diminish being a good musician via musical facts. Victor is talking about performance, not learning. He might be making the same mistake that some make when they use performance principles and confuse them with learning ones. This is a super-hard concept for some guys to separate and I am not sure if he has separated them either. Let me know beucase nobody can deny the brilliance of that sunny beach bass player.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I have a great deal of respect for Jeff and his teachings, and for the most part agree with his approach.

However...

if, within the realm of education, you are saying "this" is the best way of doing something, then it implies a blanket approach to all students. I don't disagree that there may be a better or worse ways of presenting concepts at times, but, like the education of anything, learning happens best when catered towards the individual.

In my humble opinion, this isn't always taken into consideration by those who feel they have the best way of doing something, be it playing bass or hitting a golf ball. Sometimes an individual may gain skills faster when as educators we let go of our own ego and think about what the student really needs. It may be showing them our "best" way, but at times it may require flexibility in approach. Otherwise we become dogmatic and fail to grow as musicians, educators and students.

My humble 2 cents.

Good point. I just know certain things from my decades in music (can't believe that I said DECADES. Oy, am I old). Many players surmise their conclusions. I have lived, witnessed, and experienced them. There is no flaw in the things that I have seen, heard, or literally been in the room to witness. My comments are based on year after year of validation. But, some reject them because they FEEL like it.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Clifford Brown was one of the swinging-est trumpeters that ever lived. And he may or may not have used a metronome, I can't say either way, but he was not a bass player. Swinging on trumpet is very different than providing a huge part of the bass function in music - you know, keeping good time and making it groove. As a soloist, you ride the groove like a surfer, but the rhythm section is the wave.

Anyway, Jeff often asks for citations of people that can play that actually use a metronome and I recently bought Michael Moore's upright bass method - and he highly recommends playing with a metronome.

Jeff and I have hashed this out many times. So I'm going to refrain from drawing the whole shebang out again. But I just thought I'd mention Michael Moore's book, Moore is a bass player that can not only swing like a mofo, he keeps time like a Swiss watch. I agree with him on that point.

Hi Ed. Good to hear from you. What's going on.

Ed and I are opposites about this topic. But Ed is a great guy and I enjoy our back and forths. Ciao Ed. I'm at the Markbass and DR Strings booth at NAMM. If you are free, come and look for me.

 

[JeffBerlin]

What's wrong with a metronome? As long as you don't convince yourself that it's the key to good time. It's not the key to BAD time either. You don't play music with a metronome. You play it with other musicians. So ultimately, you need to play with good time without a metronome. A metronome can reveal things to you about your playing, though. And that's useful, IMO. You don't learn to improvise by practicing scales. You get good at playing scales by practicing scales. You learn to play with a metronome by practicing with a metronome. You learn to play with a drummer by playing with a drummer. I don't think it's fair to say that Michael Moore keeps time like a swiss watch because of a metronome. But it may be that when practicing his methods, it's useful to use a metronome to keep yourself in check. He has great time, with or without a metronome.

Metronomes just don't help your time by themselves. You still have to play in time. Haven't you ever heard drummers who aren't good at playing with a click try to play with a click. A lot of times, the minute the "metronome" comes on, the time goes out the window.

There's nothing wrong with a metronome. The "wrong" is what people will happen if they practice with it. They are using it for the wrong reasons. But, so many are convinced that this isn't the case, so I know that this is an uphill issue. No big deal. I enjoy the chat with you fine people.

 

[JeffBerlin]

You know, I'm really tired of this metronome discussion.

It's a tool. You can use it, or not, as you see fit. If it helps you, great.

It's not a topic anyone is going to win on.

I don't use one because it frustrates me when I'm trying to learn a piece. That doesn't mean I'm going to insist that you not use yours if it helps you.

I'm hoping we can move on to other, more interesting (to me), aspects of learning music.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you for your honesty. Good point.

 

[tZer]

Blanket statements provoke discussion, dialogue and sometimes deeper insight and understanding. There's nothing wrong with blanket statements unless they go unchallenged.

What I've taken away from the ongoing metronome discussion is that they are tools to be used in practice. The word, "practice" has been slightly qualified, however. So I've adjusted my concept of practice, for the sake of context, to include practicing performance (playing as if I were performing - playing a piece from the top down with the intention of nailing all parts) and practicing parts or working "out of time" (without the imposition of a pseudo-conductor/metronome/consistent and unchanging time-keeping mechanism or the intent to play anything other than the part at hand properly) and with full appreciation of the subdivisions of a piece's time as it relates to location, expression and duration of the notes therein.

I don't see any need to eliminate a metronome from my personal sessions with my own instrument nor do I see Mr. Berlin's comments as somehow attacking me for the fact that I do use one. I also don't see a metronome as the key component in developing sense of time - I see it as one of many things I've found help me to develop my ability to play my instrument. I also see it as a key component in my personal practice of performance. I've found it to be very useful in identifying places where my practice of the music (out of time) has not resulted in my full comprehension and ability to execute parts in time.

OT (sorry) and to the OP - Jeff, you've dedicated a huge amount of your personal time to addressing everyone here in great detail. That's really great of you and I'd like to thank you for that!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Blanket statements provoke discussion, dialogue and sometimes deeper insight and understanding. There's nothing wrong with blanket statements unless they go unchallenged.

What I've taken away from the ongoing metronome discussion is that they are tools to be used in practice. The word, "practice" has been slightly qualified, however. So I've adjusted my concept of practice, for the sake of context, to include practicing performance (playing as if I were performing - playing a piece from the top down with the intention of nailing all parts) and practicing parts or working "out of time" (without the imposition of a pseudo-conductor/metronome/consistent and unchanging time-keeping mechanism or the intent to play anything other than the part at hand properly) and with full appreciation of the subdivisions of a piece's time as it relates to location, expression and duration of the notes therein.

I don't see any need to eliminate a metronome from my personal sessions with my own instrument nor do I see Mr. Berlin's comments as somehow attacking me for the fact that I do use one. I also don't see a metronome as the key component in developing sense of time - I see it as one of many things I've found help me to develop my ability to play my instrument. I also see it as a key component in my personal practice of performance. I've found it to be very useful in identifying places where my practice of the music (out of time) has not resulted in my full comprehension and ability to execute parts in time.

OT (sorry) and to the OP - Jeff, you've dedicated a huge amount of your personal time to addressing everyone here in great detail. That's really great of you and I'd like to thank you for that!

My pleasure. I come from a time where a musician is what he knows. If one takes away everything that can be supportive of a musician except his instrument and his talent, then the truth about a musician, all that they know, all that they don't is on the table. From there, you separate the serious guys from the talkers. The serious guys see their flaws and work to fix them (Mike Stern, John Scofield, Vinnie Colaiuta in fact, all the guys who I went to school with), and the non-serious guys talk about it.

A metronome is not a tool like a hammer is. To many people, it is way more than that. It is their direct road to significant time improvement. But, this concept is flawed. If a carpenter who knows his stuff discovers that he has no hammer, he will use something else to get the job done because his experience in his field allows him to improvize. But if a musician has no metronome, and they believe that this is a necessary tool, then they are stuck, because often, music is not a part of their experience.. This is the difference for me about this so-called tool. It never was the metronome; it always was the people who mis-use it.

 

[Billnc]

Jeff, I learned the chords (well and by writing them) and stuff to comp and my arpeggios, but the soloing was around tonal centers. This probably came from studying Pat Martino too early (to include a few hour lesson from him). Now I could solo, sound good too. But I must admit that decades into playing I'm now into the hard work of playing the changes as you state. I don't view it as relearning or unlearning, but can see the merit of what you are saying and am adding the more intense schooling you say regarding playing the chord tones and leading. I used these concepts of course for walking on bass.

I read somewhere that Victor could sight read quite well, this may be bad info.

 

[edfriedland]

Hey Jeff, as Milton Berle would say, "nice to see you in men's clothing."

I'm skipping NAMM this year, too much to do, I really can't take the time away from things. Have fun.


Hey, you did wind up drawing my attention with this statement:

Key centers blanket chords, they don't really specify them. Here's an example: if you play, say, a C major scale over a II V I in C, you will play notes that aren't strong choices to represent the chord because you aren't thinking chord; you are thinking convenience. On a Dmin7 you can land on a B, not a bad note, but not as strong as other notes if you were thinking chord. On G7, the note C is available if played. And why shouldn't it be played. It is a part of the key center, even if it is the weakest note to choose. And when you resolve to C, the note F, a perfectly acceptable note in this key centered performance, can be played. But, it, too, is the worst choice for representation in this chord. But, if one plays key centers, then these notes are absolutely going to be played because they are a part of the key center.

Me personally, I LOVE the sound of a B natural over Dm7 (iim7), it is the note that personifies Dorian. I can't see why that would be considered a weak choice if you consider the harmonic richness. Of course we need to know the chord tones, that goes without saying, but as a soloist, and particularly as a bass soloist - I think it's important to understand the texture created by every note when played against a given chord structure. The chord tones work, sure. I guess that technically makes them "strong" choices because they are being represented in the comping. But that way of thinking would make the root the "strongest" choice. While performing my job of bass player, naturally I use the root all the time, but as a soloist - I try to find more compelling choices. The B over Dm7 is one of them. I also like C over G7 - Miles beat that one to death, gives you that sus4 vibe. I admit that F over CMaj7 is rough, I don't suggest it, but I do recommend that people try it so they know how it reacts. If you understand the texture, chances are you won't be drawn to use it unless you're film scoring a scene where a kitten is about to be mangled by farm equipment.

The key center approach also works great with modal jazz. When I play "So What".... I get awful tired just running up and down a Dm7 arpeggio or playing D Dorian. I play the entire key center, each mode, each chord structure, it makes it interesting.

Playing key centers is just one approach for improvising. It does "blanket" the chord structures, I call it "extrapolation", but that's semantics.

I don't recommend this approach to the exclusion of others, but it certainly does add a nice flavor. It will lead you to choices you might not hit if you're sticking close to the chord structure. Balance is a good thing. And I find that bass players in particular must break away from the "fundamentalist" approach toward harmony when they want to become melodic soloists.

 

[engedi1]

I read somewhere that Victor could sight read quite well, this may be bad info.

I am not sure where this myth came from that Victor Wooten's amazing talent just magically appeared like Athena out of the head of Zeus. Just because he teaches a very intuitive/spiritual approach to music, doesn't mean that he doesn't also teach you to know your theory, know your chords, read music, and practive your **s off.
Why do so many posters (certianly not implying you BILLNC in that) uphold him as the model of the "I can be a genius without knowing anything about music" method. Victor certainly knows his stuff!!! Do you think that he was just sitting in the studio and all the harmonically and rythmically complicated bass parts on UFOTUFO just came to him?
I have attended master classes with Victor and just as one example, he mentioned that he studies Tabla rythms to come with some of his rythmic patterns.
Tabla music is from the great and ancient Indian classical tradition, which is no less rigorous and methodical than the Western Classical tradition, and is also as "factual"

Let's all agree, that Victor Wooten is not the poster child for the "can't read music, but lights the world on fire anyway movement"
I am very suspicious of those who make these claims anyway, and think it is mostly marketing.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hey Jeff, as Milton Berle would say, "nice to see you in men's clothing."

I'm skipping NAMM this year, too much to do, I really can't take the time away from things. Have fun.


Hey, you did wind up drawing my attention with this statement:





Me personally, I LOVE the sound of a B natural over Dm7 (iim7), it is the note that personifies Dorian. I can't see why that would be considered a weak choice if you consider the harmonic richness. Of course we need to know the chord tones, that goes without saying, but as a soloist, and particularly as a bass soloist - I think it's important to understand the texture created by every note when played against a given chord structure. The chord tones work, sure. I guess that technically makes them "strong" choices because they are being represented in the comping. But that way of thinking would make the root the "strongest" choice. While performing my job of bass player, naturally I use the root all the time, but as a soloist - I try to find more compelling choices. The B over Dm7 is one of them. I also like C over G7 - Miles beat that one to death, gives you that sus4 vibe. I admit that F over CMaj7 is rough, I don't suggest it, but I do recommend that people try it so they know how it reacts. If you understand the texture, chances are you won't be drawn to use it unless you're film scoring a scene where a kitten is about to be mangled by farm equipment.

The key center approach also works great with modal jazz. When I play "So What".... I get awful tired just running up and down a Dm7 arpeggio or playing D Dorian. I play the entire key center, each mode, each chord structure, it makes it interesting.

Playing key centers is just one approach for improvising. It does "blanket" the chord structures, I call it "extrapolation", but that's semantics.

I don't recommend this approach to the exclusion of others, but it certainly does add a nice flavor. It will lead you to choices you might not hit if you're sticking close to the chord structure. Balance is a good thing. And I find that bass players in particular must break away from the "fundamentalist" approach toward harmony when they want to become melodic soloists.

To me it is like the English word STAR. It has the exact same letters as RATS but it has a totally different meaning. Like letters, the notes don't mean much unless they represent a sound, Key centers don't specify sound, they generalize them.

Sorry that you won't be at NAMM. Should be a fun hang. Later Ed.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I am not sure where this myth came from that Victor Wooten's amazing talent just magically appeared like Athena out of the head of Zeus. Just because he teaches a very intuitive/spiritual approach to music, doesn't mean that he doesn't also teach you to know your theory, know your chords, read music, and practive your **s off.
Why do so many posters (certianly not implying you BILLNC in that) uphold him as the model of the "I can be a genius without knowing anything about music" method. Victor certainly knows his stuff!!! Do you think that he was just sitting in the studio and all the harmonically and rythmically complicated bass parts on UFOTUFO just came to him?
I have attended master classes with Victor and just as one example, he mentioned that he studies Tabla rythms to come with some of his rythmic patterns.
Tabla music is from the great and ancient Indian classical tradition, which is no less rigorous and methodical than the Western Classical tradition, and is also as "factual"

Let's all agree, that Victor Wooten is not the poster child for the "can't read music, but lights the world on fire anyway movement"
I am very suspicious of those who make these claims anyway, and think it is mostly marketing.

Everybody learns, either in school or on their own, or some combination of the two. Nobody comes forth and IS! The problem that I have with anybody who didn't learn musical facts is that they may forget that most guys who learn music via organized academic schooling is that have a way better shot of more musical and work possibilities. Remember that self taught musicians can't do the work that the schooled guys can, but the schooled guys can do almost any gig that the self-taught guys can play.

There are possibly a million self taught guys on all instruments and many play and sound as if they don't know what they are doing. But, at least the schooled guy generally knows tonality, harmony, melody and rhythm to some degree better than most self taught guys do. It is simply a fact; school makes for a much richer soil for musical inspiration to sprout. It is hard to be creative when one doesn't know the notes nor where they are located on the instrument.

 

[Billnc]

Jeff, you don't talk much about substitions, thoughts?
Also how would you approach a modal tune?
Thanks for your insights!

 

[rms2]

Key centers blanket chords, they don't really specify them. Here's an example: if you play, say, a C major scale over a II V I in C, you will play notes that aren't strong choices to represent the chord because you aren't thinking chord; you are thinking convenience. On a Dmin7 you can land on a B, not a bad note, but not as strong as other notes if you were thinking chord. On G7, the note C is available if played. And why shouldn't it be played. It is a part of the key center, even if it is the weakest note to choose. And when you resolve to C, the note F, a perfectly acceptable note in this key centered performance, can be played. But, it, too, is the worst choice for representation in this chord. But, if one plays key centers, then these notes are absolutely going to be played because they are a part of the key center.

The problem is lack of specificity. You are doing something easy, not necessarily correctly. It is way easier to just learn a key center and use it, instead of individualizing the chords and representing them this way. People in the 2000's are seeking shortcuts when the 100% effective routes are sometimes ignore because they are simply too much of a problem for some guys to endeavor to learn. Key centers are a shortcut.

This is exactly what my teacher has been telling me. He is a guitarist with many years experience as a faculty member at the New England Conservatory.

And Jeff I must say a big thanks - it is largely because of your writings and philosophy that I am studying with this jazz guitarist/educator. I tried for years to educate myself with books and videos. I did pretty well but when the chips were down I didn't get the gigs I really wanted. I played with some good pop bands and my rock band did well. But the really challenging jobs with the great jazz vocalists, keyboardists, guitarists, I was not qualified for. My mission now is to change that.

 

[edfriedland]

To me it is like the English word STAR. It has the exact same letters as RATS but it has a totally different meaning. Like letters, the notes don't mean much unless they represent a sound, Key centers don't specify sound, they generalize them.

Sorry that you won't be at NAMM. Should be a fun hang. Later Ed.

Jeff, sometimes STAR and RATS do mean the same thing! At least with some of the acts I've played with!

Anyway, I believe we are in agreement about notes needing to represent a sound. And yes, I agree that key centers do blanket chord changes. I don't see this as a negative thing though. And if you look at improvising as an art form, like poetry for example - re-ordering your letters for creative purposes might have some value. You answer is somewhat oblique, I understand what you said, but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

While the Bop vocabulary can be very literal and chord tone specific, the later work of Trane, Bill Evans, Miles, etc.... did incorporate a more open, less specific, key center approach too. Not exclusively, but it did play an important role.

 

[Billnc]

Ed and Jeff, thanks for your input and debate. I've gotten a lot from both of you! I certainly would never regret, learning playing through tonal centers, and the substitutions available with that approach. I do wish I'd have had more training on soloing 'bebop' style with the chord tones landing on strong beats etc. first.