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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

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#341
rms2 said:
This is exactly what my teacher has been telling me. He is a guitarist with many years experience as a faculty member at the New England Conservatory.

And Jeff I must say a big thanks - it is largely because of your writings and philosophy that I am studying with this jazz guitarist/educator. I tried for years to educate myself with books and videos. I did pretty well but when the chips were down I didn't get the gigs I really wanted. I played with some good pop bands and my rock band did well. But the really challenging jobs with the great jazz vocalists, keyboardists, guitarists, I was not qualified for. My mission now is to change that.
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You are welcome. My mission was to dismiss bad musical advice and guide people to much better stuff. I am glad that I helped you.

Regarding your teacher at New England Conservatory, he is right. He knows that blanket tonality (which is what key centers are) doesn't specify the sounds you are trying to represent. Key centers are another short cut method in a long list of short cuts that many embrace today. This is why only the great teachers know the difference, the ones that I have been imploring people to seek out. NEC doesn't allow for anyone or anything that isn't of a high musical quality, which is why your teacher is teaching there.
 
#342
Billnc said:
Ed and Jeff, thanks for your input and debate. I've gotten a lot from both of you! I certainly would never regret, learning playing through tonal centers, and the substitutions available with that approach. I do wish I'd have had more training on soloing 'bebop' style with the chord tones landing on strong beats etc. first.
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Hey Bill. Read the post just above this one. It might relate you your interest. Thanks Buddy.
 
#343
P.S. Keep your research going on about who uses a metronome and who doesn't One fellow wrote in a list and tomorrow my first post will be about your combined list of metronome endorsers. To refresh, I asked for a list of names of bass players who stand for using metronomes, but someone suggested a wider endorsement list than that. So, have at it and let's see what you guys will find. Tomorrow I'd like to address what you guys have contributed. Thank you.

Now, back to the chat. P.P.S. Friday is my last chat day. I go to Europe for 12 days.
 
#344
edfriedland said:
Jeff, sometimes STAR and RATS do mean the same thing! At least with some of the acts I've played with! ;)

Anyway, I believe we are in agreement about notes needing to represent a sound. And yes, I agree that key centers do blanket chord changes. I don't see this as a negative thing though. And if you look at improvising as an art form, like poetry for example - re-ordering your letters for creative purposes might have some value. You answer is somewhat oblique, I understand what you said, but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

While the Bop vocabulary can be very literal and chord tone specific, the later work of Trane, Bill Evans, Miles, etc.... did incorporate a more open, less specific, key center approach too. Not exclusively, but it did play an important role.
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Academics are different than art. In academics, the focus is on facts and learning them. In art, one plays whatever they hear.

There is a great separation between academics and art but many guys don't know this. You did agree that key centers blanket chord changes and you don't see this as a negative. But you do see it as a fact, and because you do, you now have a decision to make; to either show your students that which you know to be true, or to not. As a teacher dispensing information, you can "up" your teaching game and clarify the academic truths, one of which you just acknowledged. The artful choice is always up to the player. The academic truths are not. They are up to the teacher.
 
#345
JeffBerlin said:
Hey Bill. Read the post just above this one. It might relate you your interest. Thanks Buddy.
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I agree, and again I promise if need be to keep this my last post on this subject! It is not always a short cut IMO, like Martino's conversion to minor, it is based around tonal centers, but you can substitute over dominant chords to create tensions and work out of a diminished patterns, secondary relative minors over a major chord,etc. Some were concepts taken from chord substitutions and cycles when I studied chord melody guitar. I freely admit the style creates a wash, and in some guys like Pat its wonderful

Having said that I've found a weakness that can be corrected in my own pursuit of music. Obviously I've used your approach in walking (never would work if I didn't!), but for soloing, particularly with a strong sense of melody (and maybe a guy like Jim Halls approach) I see the strengths in the chord tone approach. Thanks!

Hey Jeff, sorry once again I see you may have answered while I was posting so no need to answer me directly!
 
#346
Billnc said:
I agree, and again I promise if need be to keep this my last post on this subject! It is not always a short cut IMO, like Martino's conversion to minor, it is based around tonal centers, but you can substitute over dominant chords to create tensions and work out of a diminished patterns, secondary relative minors over a major chord,etc. Some were concepts taken from chord substitutions and cycles when I studied chord melody guitar. I freely admit the style creates a wash, and in some guys like Pat its wonderful

Having said that I've found a weakness that can be corrected in my own pursuit of music. Obviously I've used your approach in walking (never would work if I didn't!), but for soloing, particularly with a strong sense of melody (and maybe a guy like Jim Halls approach) I see the strengths in the chord tone approach. Thanks!

Hey Jeff, sorry once again I see you may have answered while I was posting so no need to answer me directly!
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You NEVER have to apologize to me about anything. We're talking shop here and everything is cool. Just remember that Pat Martino played one way and learned in another. I am not sure all the details of his schooling, but he did study with Dennis Sandole who fell into the same area as Charlie Banacos now occupies.

In art, it is all good. In academica it is all military. I used to play with Pat Martino and he was, and is, pretty much the most "inside" guitarist in jazz. Stunning, brilliant, but always always in the chord of the moment.
 
#347
fdeck said:
Where did you get Moore's book? I am looking for his thumb position book, and have not found a supplier.
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I bought it a couple of years ago from Lemur music. It focuses on "targets" related to chord tones in thumb position. One could devise chord tone exercises over progressions in thumb position oneself to accomplish the same idea, it seems to me.
 
#348
JeffBerlin said:
. This is why only the great teachers know the difference, the ones that I have been imploring people to seek out. NEC doesn't allow for anyone or anything that isn't of a high musical quality, which is why your teacher is teaching there.
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Hi Jeff,
Could you suggest some teachers of this caliber? I intend taking your summer course, but would love a great instructor in the interim. I live in Ohio if that makes a difference..
Regards,
Geoff
 
#349
N.F.A. said:
Hi Jeff,
Could you suggest some teachers of this caliber? I intend taking your summer course, but would love a great instructor in the interim. I live in Ohio if that makes a difference..
Regards,
Geoff
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Ouch! I barely know who the good guys are because I am here in Clearwater, Florida. But, Boston has Mick Goodrick, and Charlie Banacos. I don't know what any other city has. What I know is that the good guys are out there, but you've got to find them. One way is to seek out the best jazz players in your town or near your town and ask who they recommend.

P.S. You will triple your playing if you come for the whole summer course at The Players School. But you have to work (NOT TO DEATH because nobody learns music in a state of discomfort or intimidation). Just do what is given to you, and do it each day, but in Peace Don't memorize anything. This is another myth. You don't have to make any effort to do something that automatically happens as you are practicing. Don't work for hours. This is another myth. I can show you how to practice when you get here. Some find it hard to believe this, but 100% of our students improve IF they do the work.See you in a few months.
 
#352
Hi Jeff,
Having read your old column in BP for many years and having heard many of your discussions on education, I can safely say that your passion and heart have always been in the right place. And for the most part I've agreed with what you've said even if it indicted some of my laziness as a learning musician.

That being said, it was refreshing to read your letter that you're proposing to BP. I once heard a pastor say that you can't give someone a rose to smell if you cut off their nose. It will be interesting to see how the "kinder, gentler Mr. Berlin" is perceived in those pages and other arenas.

I once had a design teacher in art school who had a similar personality and ethic towards education as you have. By the time I got him, his rants had reached urban legend status, though his teaching was still spot on. We did have one or two students who were prone to short cuts and had no work ethic to speak of and I could see the eye twitch he had just barely keep him from erupting.

His passion did still come through and for those of who listened we made it successfully as professional working artists. I say all that to say this, whatever you do, Mr. Berlin, don't lose the eye twitch. It keeps us all honest!
 
#353
JeffBerlin said:
Academics are different than art. In academics, the focus is on facts and learning them. In art, one plays whatever they hear.

There is a great separation between academics and art but many guys don['t know this. You did agree that key centers blanket chord changes and you don't see this as a negative. But you do see it as a fact, and because you do, you now have a decision to make; to either show your students that which you know to be true, or to not. As a teacher dispensing information, you can "up" your teaching game and clarify the academic truths, one of which you just acknowledged. The artful choice is always up to the player. The academic truths are not. They are up to the teacher.
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What I "know to be true" is that "blanketing" chord changes has been one of the methods many great improvisers have used for years to create beautiful music. I don't see this as a "chord tones vs. key centers" debate. Each approach does different things, they are BOTH useful and important to understand. I don't teach people the use of key centers as a shortcut, it's just another method. As a soloist, I want to have many perspectives to create with. I don't see the study of key centers as being any less academically true or valid than chord tones.

But when I teach the use of key centers, I DO in fact mention how they work, which is to "blanket" the chord changes. It's not a bad thing, it's another texture. And THAT is the "academic truth" of the matter. Each approach produces different results, not better or worse - different. I don't see choosing to dismiss key centers as a way to "up" my teaching game. But thanks for the suggestion!
 
#355
Curley Shadow said:
I bought it a couple of years ago from Lemur music. It focuses on "targets" related to chord tones in thumb position. One could devise chord tone exercises over progressions in thumb position oneself to accomplish the same idea, it seems to me.
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I have Michael's book on Thumb Position too, but I am referring to his Bass Method book, it's somewhat of a classical method for jazz players.

http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Moore...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259775543&sr=8-1

There is a lot of great stuff in there, including his suggestion to use a metronome to develop your pulse.
 
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#357
Curley Shadow said:
I was thinking of signing up with Mr. Banacos just to improve as this post reminded me of him and ran into this: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Mr. Banacos has an aggressive cancer. I wonder if he has written a book?
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I knew about this. I called the hospital last night. He's not doing all that well, but he's in the early stages of treatment. He can still lick this thing.

I ought to tell everybody that Charlie is the greatest music teacher that I ever had. Nobody had the endless wealth of clearly stated musical principles to work on that Charlie had. He would send me one sheet of music paper with three lines of music on it and my life would permanently change. No joke and no exaggeration! He knew that music answered all questions. Once I went over to Mike Stern's apartment and he was sitting in front of a phonograph player lifting the needle over and over and placing it down on this one section of a McCoy Tyner solo. I knew that he was also studying with Charlie and so I asked him what he was working on. Charlie gave him the assignment to transcribe only the left hand playing of McCoy's, not the right. I was so taken with this homework that I bought the record, went home and did the same homework to see if I could do it. To this day, I can hear the left hand of any pianist that I listen to. The right hand is a piece of cake, but that comping hand...... Wow! Only Charlie could have found the academic merit in doing this homework.

One day, after hearing a tape of my playing that I sent to Charlie to check out (this was a year ago), he heard something in my playing that he thought that I could fix. Amazingly, the paper that he sent me didn't have one single note on it, but instead, had a variety of red lines in different lengths to emphasize different principles of phrasing. That paper changed my life, and there wasn't even a note written on that paper. This was the case with everything that Charlie ever sent me. When I was in my 20's Charlie, knowing that I had a really good ear, gave me a transcription homework, to transcribe Sonny Rollins and Sonny Stitt's solos on Dizzy Gillespie's tune The Eternal Triangle. That lesson for the week turned out to be a 14 page transcription of their soloing, something that I practiced on my bass for months. Charlie always could offer great stuff for his students to learn and with me, he gave me stuff that he didn't always give to his other students.

I embraced his learning principles and I teach high quality music, from the very simple to advanced stuff, here at The Players School of Music. Charlie's spirit is in this place and in me. He gave me musical possibilities that I am not convinced that I would have had without him. This is why I am so impatient with B.S. lessons, with nonsensical methods to develop good time, with emphasis on scales, with the idea that learning music is a broad road. Charlie, more than anybody, taught me that music is specific, that the learning of it is specific, but that you had to learn a million specific principles to BECOME a broad representative of the music that is inside me and inside all of you, if you really wish to seek it out.
 
#358
edfriedland said:
What I "know to be true" is that "blanketing" chord changes has been one of the methods many great improvisers have used for years to create beautiful music. I don't see this as a "chord tones vs. key centers" debate. Each approach does different things, they are BOTH useful and important to understand. I don't teach people the use of key centers as a shortcut, it's just another method. As a soloist, I want to have many perspectives to create with. I don't see the study of key centers as being any less academically true or valid than chord tones.

But when I teach the use of key centers, I DO in fact mention how they work, which is to "blanket" the chord changes. It's not a bad thing, it's another texture. And THAT is the "academic truth" of the matter. Each approach produces different results, not better or worse - different. I don't see choosing to dismiss key centers as a way to "up" my teaching game. But thanks for the suggestion!
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Okee Dokee.....
 
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