Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[JeffBerlin]

Hi Jeff,
Having read your old column in BP for many years and having heard many of your discussions on education, I can safely say that your passion and heart have always been in the right place. And for the most part I've agreed with what you've said even if it indicted some of my laziness as a learning musician.

That being said, it was refreshing to read your letter that you're proposing to BP. I once heard a pastor say that you can't give someone a rose to smell if you cut off their nose. It will be interesting to see how the "kinder, gentler Mr. Berlin" is perceived in those pages and other arenas.

I once had a design teacher in art school who had a similar personality and ethic towards education as you have. By the time I got him, his rants had reached urban legend status, though his teaching was still spot on. We did have one or two students who were prone to short cuts and had no work ethic to speak of and I could see the eye twitch he had just barely keep him from erupting.

His passion did still come through and for those of who listened we made it successfully as professional working artists. I say all that to say this, whatever you do, Mr. Berlin, don't lose the eye twitch. It keeps us all honest!

I'm trying to tone down the rants and my eye only twitches now and again. But, I knew a few things about learning that many guys don't. It is available to anybody who wants it.

 

[Lincoln]

'Fraid not! And frankly, unless you are capable to just deal with musical content on its own merit, everybody benefits way more when they have a teacher in the room with them. The good teachers can spot things and address them.

I agree, I've learned alot in the years I've been away from a private instructor. However, I'm sure I'd have learned the same information in a a third of the time, had I stayed with the instructor...

 

[Billnc]

Jeff been doing the chord tone thing for a while now (months in the 10 or so you posted a while back), I think earlier in the thread you spoke of chord tones only to the 7th degree, now how do you handle the 7b9 sound in this context? In the past exercizes, I've done you do the whole arpeggio.

 

[pedro]

'Fraid not! And frankly, unless you are capable to just deal with musical content on its own merit, everybody benefits way more when they have a teacher in the room with them. The good teachers can spot things and address them.

No question about it that its best face to face but honestly, we were driving 3+ hours each way. That kind of distance limited the frequency of lessons we could schedule. Not every town has a great teachers. I've skyped with both my son (in Barcelona) and daughter (in Boston) and think given the right circumstances the technology could provide enough to give a teacher the ability to help a 'long-distance' student.

 

[JeffBerlin]

No question about it that its best face to face but honestly, we were driving 3+ hours each way. That kind of distance limited the frequency of lessons we could schedule. Not every town has a great teachers. I've skyped with both my son (in Barcelona) and daughter (in Boston) and think given the right circumstances the technology could provide enough to give a teacher the ability to help a 'long-distance' student.

You are right. A three hour haul is a bit much. And you are also right to use the technology of the day. If a teacher has Skype and if he/she knows what they are doing, then this is a great solution to your travel dilemma.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff been doing the chord tone thing for a while now (months in the 10 or so you posted a while back), I think earlier in the thread you spoke of chord tones only to the 7th degree, now how do you handle the 7b9 sound in this context? In the past exercizes, I've done you do the whole arpeggio.

The tensions simply fall into another definition. There are lots of ways to use tensions. One way is to substitute them for chord tones. For example, C,E, G, B chord tones could be written as D,E,G,B, having the 9 substitute for the root. In C7, you might have a D,E,F#,Bb to sub for C, E, G, Bb. There are various ways to try these things out. But do them slowly, don't memorize anything on purpose, and never use a metronome while playing them. P.S. Do these exercises up and down the neck and in 12 keys, but only when you are fairly comfortable with them in the key of C.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Don't forget to find bass players who claim that a metronome was a necessary part of their finding good time as players. You guys know the stories behind a lot of these guys and so i assume that you can add some names of teacher/players who used one to acquire their time sense. Total up whoever you can find and I will ad them to my list started by Alan Vorse. Tomorrow we can chat about it. Thanks.

 

[pedro]

You are right. A three hour haul is a bit much. And you are also right to use the technology of the day. If a teacher has Skype and if he/she knows what they are doing, then this is a great solution to your travel dilemma.

Larry was well worth it. He's a great example of a great musician with a sincere passion for teaching. But it would've been nice.

I could be wrong but I think Berklee might use some of this technology for its online courses. Perhaps somebody here knows for sure.

 

[west*coast*bass]

Hey Jeff, you mentioned earlier about teaching someone how to practice...will you expand on that for me? I practice every day for about an hour but it's mostly the same thing over and over. I'd like to break out of my practice rut and get some new ideas under my fingers. If there are specific books that I should get, I'll do it. Any advice is appreciated.

Mark

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Don't forget to find bass players who claim that a metronome was a necessary part of their finding good time as players. You guys know the stories behind a lot of these guys and so i assume that you can add some names of teacher/players who used one to acquire their time sense. Total up whoever you can find and I will ad them to my list started by Alan Vorse. Tomorrow we can chat about it. Thanks.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

 

[pedro]

Hey Jeff, you mentioned earlier about teaching someone how to practice...will you expand on that for me? I practice every day for about an hour but it's mostly the same thing over and over. I'd like to break out of my practice rut and get some new ideas under my fingers. If there are specific books that I should get, I'll do it. Any advice is appreciated.

Mark

I had a wonderful piano teacher back in the early 70's that was very much all about 'how' to practice. He was a big proponent of quality vs. time. One hour of 'proper' practice was much better than 4 hours of thoughtless practice. I don't recall many specifics but do recall that he wanted you to practice slow enough so that you could play whatever you were working on without making a mistake. If you made a mistake it meant that you were playing it too fast and that you didn't really have it under your fingers yet. To continue to play it at that speed meant you'd end up practicing your mistakes which was counter-productive.

I'll be very interested to hear how Mr. Berlin recommends one practice.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

What I "know to be true" is that "blanketing" chord changes has been one of the methods many great improvisers have used for years to create beautiful music. I don't see this as a "chord tones vs. key centers" debate. Each approach does different things, they are BOTH useful and important to understand. I don't teach people the use of key centers as a shortcut, it's just another method. As a soloist, I want to have many perspectives to create with. I don't see the study of key centers as being any less academically true or valid than chord tones.

But when I teach the use of key centers, I DO in fact mention how they work, which is to "blanket" the chord changes. It's not a bad thing, it's another texture. And THAT is the "academic truth" of the matter. Each approach produces different results, not better or worse - different. I don't see choosing to dismiss key centers as a way to "up" my teaching game. But thanks for the suggestion!

Exactly. And to the player who's listening while they play, both roads lead to Rome in the end. It is factual to say that for any 7-note "blanket scale" in a composition dominated by 7th chord harmony, 4 of those notes will be chord tones, and three will be passing or neighbor tones to the chord tones. The chord tones have their own sense of what I call "aural gravity" that pulls the ear and the line to them. Further, this gravity is hierarchical depending on the chord tone and/or alteration involved (i.e. - some have a stronger aural gravity than others). So to me, the player who is playing in a "blanket tonality" is really aware of the chord tones as well if they're listening. Best case scenario for blanket playing is if the player in question is already internally hearing the harmony whether anyone is playing it or not.

 

[Billnc]

The tensions simply fall into another definition. There are lots of ways to use tensions. One way is to substitute them for chord tones. For example, C,E, G, B chord tones could be written as D,E,G,B, having the 9 substitute for the root. In C7, you might have a D,E,F#,Bb to sub for C, E, G, Bb. There are various ways to try these things out. But do them slowly, don't memorize anything on purpose, and never use a metronome while playing them. P.S. Do these exercises up and down the neck and in 12 keys, but only when you are fairly comfortable with them in the key of C.

I suspected that but wasn't sure, many thanks Jeff!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hey Jeff, you mentioned earlier about teaching someone how to practice...will you expand on that for me? I practice every day for about an hour but it's mostly the same thing over and over. I'd like to break out of my practice rut and get some new ideas under my fingers. If there are specific books that I should get, I'll do it. Any advice is appreciated.

Mark

Books are hard to recommend to somebody who's playing I am not familiar with. There are a few general books around, but I have no idea if you will either be too good, not good enough, or just right for those lessons (sounds like The Three Bears).

If you are playing the same things over and over, you really aren't practicing. You are re-hashing the same stuff that you've already learned. You need to steadily add new material to your weekly investigations and a great teacher can do this for you.

 

[west*coast*bass]

Books are hard to recommend to somebody who's playing I am not familiar with. There are a few general books around, but I have no idea if you will either be too good, not good enough, or just right for those lessons (sounds like The Three Bears).

If you are playing the same things over and over, you really aren't practicing. You are re-hashing the same stuff that you've already learned. You need to steadily add new material to your weekly investigations and a great teacher can do this for you.

Thanks Jeff...the search is on. What should I be asking a potential teacher? I want to work with someone who brings the right things to the table.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I had a wonderful piano teacher back in the early 70's that was very much all about 'how' to practice. He was a big proponent of quality vs. time. One hour of 'proper' practice was much better than 4 hours of thoughtless practice. I don't recall many specifics but do recall that he wanted you to practice slow enough so that you could play whatever you were working on without making a mistake. If you made a mistake it meant that you were playing it too fast and that you didn't really have it under your fingers yet. To continue to play it at that speed meant you'd end up practicing your mistakes which was counter-productive.

I'll be very interested to hear how Mr. Berlin recommends one practice.

Your teacher was correct except for one thing. When a guy learns his lessons, he still might make a mistake or two. This doesn't mean that he hasn't learned it. It only means that he hasn't learned it well enough to play it at Carnegie Hall. Because learning music isn't a performance, just assume that if you flub a couple of notes, you can still move on to something else. But your teacher was essential correct; playing slower to learn something valuable to learn is way better than forcing one to keep up with a metronome believing that they are getting good time this way. Did anybody see "National Lampoon's Vacation" with Chevy Chase? Remember the scene when he tied the dog to his car bumper and forgot that he was there until the police pulled him over to show him the empty dogleash? That dog was running at top speed until he couldn't keep up and he died. This is exactly what I feel that many guys are doing while they play with clicks.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Thanks Jeff...the search is on. What should I be asking a potential teacher? I want to work with someone who brings the right things to the table.

1. Will they assign homework at each lesson.
2. Do they teach jazz-type studies
3. Are there reading from music books that are not electric bass books.

this should give you a great start. These questions will weed out a lot of guys who probably ought not be teaching people who are really interested in upping their game.

 

[west*coast*bass]

1. Will they assign homework at each lesson.
2. Do they teach jazz-type studies
3. Are there reading from music books that are not electric bass books.

this should give you a great start. These questions will weed out a lot of guys who probably ought not be teaching people who are really interested in upping their game.

You rock, man. I appreciate that you take the time to spend here answering questions. I really appreciate it.

 

[pedro]

Thanks Jeff. I seem to recall that if you made a mistake he'd make you slow down and work on that particular section that was causing problems. No need to go to the beginning or waste time re-playing the sections that you played correctly. Better use of your time to be spent on the sections that were causing the problem. I think his feeling was that if you didn't slow down and that you'd end up practicing it wrong which would only slow down the process in the end. He was a classical pianist and perhaps that influenced his POV.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Thanks Jeff. I seem to recall that if you made a mistake he'd make you slow down and work on that particular section that was causing problems. No need to go to the beginning or waste time re-playing the sections that you played correctly. Better use of your time to be spent on the sections that were causing the problem. I think his feeling was that if you didn't slow down and that you'd end up practicing it wrong which would only slow down the process in the end. He was a classical pianist and perhaps that influenced his POV.

That is EXACTLY CORRECT. You see, the guys who are trained well don't come by their knowledge by accident. The guys who are not trained well clearly have deficits in what they teach. Where a lot of guys make their mistake is that they sometimes believe that guys whose playing they enjoy automatically makes them qualified to teach you. Little could be further from the truth, but try and tell that to a guy who is a fan. These great players did their work to get where they got, but it doesn't mean that what they did is effective academic material to emulate. In fact it is mostly the opposite.

Your piano teacher, by the nature of her training, is someone whose points of views are worthy of consideration because it is nearly impossible to be a good classical player without some narrow and specific methods of practice to accomplish this task. Listen to what this person has told you, and also try out other musical elements such as jazz, because there is no other music anywhere in the world related to so many different styles embraced by western ears than what jazz contains.