Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[JeffBerlin]

Hi Jeff

You have said that you don't think that metronomes are bad but the way that people use them is a waste of time (no pun intended). Is there anything that metronomes are good for in the study of our instrument?

Paperweight? Table ornament? Seriously, you can jam to them when you don't have anyone else around to play with. And Dave Douglas uses them for ear training subdivision when he teaches which makes sense to me. But, you will never in a million years acquire a good sense of time by practicing with it. This has been my only point.

 

[JeffBerlin]

On Tuesday, I asked people to write up the names of all the bass players that they knew of who endorse the idea that practicing with a metronome helps you develop good time. After two days, Alan Vorse was the only guy to contribute a list. Here it is. Well done Alan.

Andy Laverne: http://www.bassplayer.com/story.aspx...erms=metronome
Jeff Andrews: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Kai Eckhardt: Invalid Link Removed
John Goldsby: Invalid Link Removed
Beaver Felton: Link Removed
Dave LaRue: Invalid Link Removed (Thanks Jimmy).
Adam Nitti: http://www.adamnitti.com/patterns_two.shtml
Stu Hamm: http://www.stuarthamm.net/
Billy Sheehan: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (Exercise 4)
Dave Liebman: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Steve Gadd: http://www.performing-musician.com/p...s/techthat.htm
Mike Stern: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (last video).
John Scofield:
Dave Hungate
Tony Grey
Mark Egan
Lynn Seaton
Michael Moore
Dave Douglas
Dave LaRue
John Pattitucci
Jimmy Raney
Robert Fripp (seen backstage practicing with a metronome)
Ralph Towner
John McLaughlin

I appreciate Alan’s contribution. Thanks Buddy. You did your homework. I reviewed some links quickly and discovered that some guys used metronomes as bandmembers in their clinics, not as learning tools, which is what I asked for originally (“List all the players who state that a metronome contributed to their sense of time&#8221. I’ve used metronomes myself in clinics as a drummer, or my foot, or a drum machine or a real drummer.But, I will never state that my sense of time came from a click because it didn’t. This is what I was looking for.

To continue, Billy Sheehan, in fact, dismisses the idea that a metronome contributed anything toward his good time sense (we toured together for 2 months and talked about this). The John McLaughlin and John Scofield filmclips are ads. They were hired to do Korg videos to promote their metronome and had to invent simple exercies for the film date that they were paid to perform in.I know them both and they never believed that a metronome was a part of their developed sense of time. David Hungate apparently once commented, “the best way to develop good time is to play with people with good time, but since they won't let you the next best thing is to play with the records they are on." If this is true, then you have found Hungate’s preferred choice to acquire good time and a metronome isn’t a part of it.

Yet some on this list do believe that a metronome was instrumental in helping them acquire their sense of time. I lament this, because the implication is that if there were no metronome in the world to help the metronome supporters acquire their sense of time, then they must have believed that they weren’t good enough musicians to learn how to play in time without it. That is a sad thing to believe about yourself.

On this thread alone, there have been over 9,000 viewings of what we’ve been writing back and forth to each other. Yet, only one guy offered a list of around 30 names. Even if I artificially multiply this list by 10, you will still only come up with 300 names of teacher/players nationwide who support the notion that a metronome is a tool that helps to provide good time to those who use it. I am not impressed with the turn-out. This was the metronome supporters' opportunity to show enough circumstantial proof that lots of great players share their belief in the validity of practicing with a click. But, out of over 9,000 viewers, only one guy stepped up to the plate and this is EXACTLY what I thought was going to happen. A couple of guys offered a couple of names as well. This is why I opened up the possibility to list these guys. I knew that few could or even would try to offer some circumstantial evidence that metronomes are a firm part of many pro's developmental life their claim. Why? Because they can’t! There aren’t many metronome supporters in the pro ranks who believe in practicing with metronomes as much as some on Talkbass or other places do.

At this point, I am done with discussing metronomes. I have nothing else that I can offer. My well runneth dry! I tried via historical precedence, industry requirements, conservatory methodology, elements of practice that go back a long long time, and now, a little bit of general proof to show that if you wish to learn how to play in time, you have to go about it in a different way. Frankly, metronome supporters here have have lost any credibility because now it is just talk without substance. Only Alan Vorse came forward. Good man! In fact, I predict that there will be a discussion like you've never seen. People will dissect each word, examine and punch holes in almost every sentence that I've written. Please report back and let me know when this takes place, because it is absolutely coming.

Regarding clicks, you can jam with it, practice subdivisional ear training with it, but you will never in a million years acquire good time from practicing with it. Let’s move on to something else because the guys who want to improve already got the message.

P.S. In the last several days I asked everybody to list anything that is best learned in time. Nobody came up with one single thing. This is hardcore proof that absolutely everything that is learned is best learned out of time until you have learned it well. Everything, without exception is best learned this way! If one cannot mention anything anywhere that is best learned in time, then logic suggests that music must be included in this universal principal as well.

Thanks for reading.

 

[jallenbass]

Paperweight? Table ornament? Seriously, you can jam to them when you don't have anyone else around to play with. And Dave Douglas uses them for ear training subdivision when he teaches which makes sense to me. But, you will never in a million years acquire a good sense of time by practicing with it. This has been my only point.

How about this? I used this technique extensively in my classical studies. 1. Once you can play a passage at all put the metronome on at a tempo that you can easily play the passage. 2. When you are comfortable with that tempo increase the metronome by one click. 3. Lather, rinse and repeat until it's about as fast as you can play that day or is up to tempo. Just a nice gradual way to get in the repetitions and speed things up.

 

[JeffBerlin]

And sorry, Larry Graham pioneered slap bass.

Dictionary.com defined “Pioneer” as “one who is first or AMONG THE EARLIEST in any field of inquiry, enterprise, or progress” I was one of the earliest slapper in music, in fact, I was in a group that only included three other guys, Stanley Clarke, Louis Johnson and Larry Graham.

In 1978, I recorded a tune called 5G that had a particular slapping approach that turned everybody on their ear at that time. I was called a pioneer for that, and I was called a pioneer in two handed tapping for my introduction of my tune Motherlode. 'Tis true! 'Tis true!

 

[OldogNewTrick]

Hello Jeff

I am a time-challenged hobbyist who has just recently picked up the bass again after a 25+ year hiatus. I was time challenged then, but had a good drummer who I always could rely on.
Still today I face the same challenge and reading your theories is very interesting and challenging.
Albeit so many people having said it before, thank you for your input here on Talkbass (... and for your music, which I greatly admire)

I hope this Oldog can still learn some new tricks from you


Edit: lots of pages to read... so it'll take time to filter out your most essential points

 

[Quadruple Jay]

Hey Jeff,

I don't know if you watched the Vic Wooten clip that was posted:



But if you did, what would be the benefit of this exercise? Specifically when he takes it down to 40 BPMs and starts changing where the tick is hitting (first on the 1, then on the 16th before the 1, then on the 8th before the 1, etc.). I feel like this would be an example of using a metronome to help think about rhythms in a different way, maybe even help you work on the timing of the notes and how you feel the beat.

Would practicing rhythms be an important aspect to improving on the bass, similar to how drummers practice rudiments? Could a metronome help with thinking about your timing in a different way?

I don't use one very often and tend to practice passages out of time, but from time to time I like to do certain exercises where I don't concern myself with the notes as much as I concern myself with the phrasing and time what I'm playing.

I'm far from a professional and always like hearing the thoughts of people who have studied this as a career. Thanks for your time.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Try one chord a week, or one chord every several days. Those etudes aren't easy.

There was a really good teacher in L.A. named Tim Emmons. I'm not sure where he is these days as we haven't been in touch in a while. But he's a great guy and, as I remember, he really know what and how to teach.

I've found that a good way to practice these is to have some sort of loop of the chord (I use a Bossa setting on Band in a Box, but I've also recorded a keyboard pad or even used bass chords in the past). If you play the study out of time you can hear the way that the approach tones resolve to the chord tone. I tell my students that the chord tones are the main event, and even highlight them at times.

 

[Roy Vogt]

How about this? I used this technique extensively in my classical studies. 1. Once you can play a passage at all put the metronome on at a tempo that you can easily play the passage. 2. When you are comfortable with that tempo increase the metronome by one click. 3. Lather, rinse and repeat until it's about as fast as you can play that day or is up to tempo. Just a nice gradual way to get in the repetitions and speed things up.

I've done that as well for years with modal studies and classical bass. I'm starting to realize that maybe the problem was not physically moving my hands, but having a better understanding of where I was going. I'm in an experimental metronomeless 6 weeks and I'll share how this works for me and my students.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hey Jeff,

I don't know if you watched the Vic Wooten clip that was posted:



But if you did, what would be the benefit of this exercise? Specifically when he takes it down to 40 BPMs and starts changing where the tick is hitting (first on the 1, then on the 16th before the 1, then on the 8th before the 1, etc.). I feel like this would be an example of using a metronome to help think about rhythms in a different way, maybe even help you work on the timing of the notes and how you feel the beat.

Would practicing rhythms be an important aspect to improving on the bass, similar to how drummers practice rudiments? Could a metronome help with thinking about your timing in a different way?

I don't use one very often and tend to practice passages out of time, but from time to time I like to do certain exercises where I don't concern myself with the notes as much as I concern myself with the phrasing and time what I'm playing.

I'm far from a professional and always like hearing the thoughts of people who have studied this as a career. Thanks for your time.

The answer is in the first 35 seconds of the film. Listen to his time. It never came from a click. It is a performance video, not an academic one. Having good time is everybody's job who plays an instrument. It is nothing special, no more so than notes, harmony, learning principle, etc. But learning musical notes doesn't make for interesting videos, practicing with a metronome does. Very few are interested in learning about music which is why slap, tap, and metronome-type lessons are so popular.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Dictionary.com defined “Pioneer” as “one who is first or AMONG THE EARLIEST in any field of inquiry, enterprise, or progress” I was one of the earliest slapper in music, in fact, I was in a group that only included three other guys, Stanley Clarke, Louis Johnson and Larry Graham.

In 1978, I recorded a tune called 5G that had a particular slapping approach that turned everybody on their ear at that time. I was called a pioneer for that, and I was called a pioneer in two handed tapping for my introduction of my tune Motherlode. 'Tis true! 'Tis true!

Absolutely right! Jeff was the first recorded example of the "drums on bass with tapping" I was aware of. He rightly credits Bill Dickens for inspiring this on the REH book/tape set he did in the 80s (which was sort of his take on Chord Tones for Electric Bass in a easier format). I saw Bill perform with Ramsey Lewis in 1981 and he was doing this as well.

 

[jallenbass]

I've done that as well for years with modal studies and classical bass. I'm starting to realize that maybe the problem was not physically moving my hands, but having a better understanding of where I was going. I'm in an experimental metronomeless 6 weeks and I'll share how this works for me and my students.

I hear what you're saying. I look forward to an update.

 

[JeffBerlin]

How about this? I used this technique extensively in my classical studies. 1. Once you can play a passage at all put the metronome on at a tempo that you can easily play the passage. 2. When you are comfortable with that tempo increase the metronome by one click. 3. Lather, rinse and repeat until it's about as fast as you can play that day or is up to tempo. Just a nice gradual way to get in the repetitions and speed things up.

How about slow things down. What about playing the click on the "and" of 2. There is the great emphasis about speeding things up. Many people talk about speeding up their playing and put it in the same area of over-importance as they put scales. There is no need to speed anything up, just like there is no need to learn scales, not for a while anyway. However, there is a great need to learn your lessons well. I hope that this helps. Thank you very much.

 

[JeffBerlin]

To make sure that people read this, I thought to post it again. I hope that this helps one to think about things well. Thanks for checking this out. You don't have to comment, but I would like you to read it. Thanks Cats.

Jeff

On Tuesday, I asked people to write up the names of all the bass players that they knew of who endorse the idea that practicing with a metronome helps you develop good time. After two days, Alan Vorse was the only guy to contribute a list. Here it is. Well done Alan.

Andy Laverne: http://www.bassplayer.com/story.aspx...erms=metronome
Jeff Andrews: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Kai Eckhardt: Invalid Link Removed
John Goldsby: Invalid Link Removed
Beaver Felton: Link Removed
Dave LaRue: Invalid Link Removed (Thanks Jimmy).
Adam Nitti: http://www.adamnitti.com/patterns_two.shtml
Stu Hamm: http://www.stuarthamm.net/
Billy Sheehan: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (Exercise 4)
Dave Liebman: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Steve Gadd: http://www.performing-musician.com/p...s/techthat.htm
Mike Stern: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (last video).
John Scofield:
Dave Hungate
Tony Grey
Mark Egan
Lynn Seaton
Michael Moore
Dave Douglas
Dave LaRue
John Pattitucci
Jimmy Raney
Robert Fripp (seen backstage practicing with a metronome)
Ralph Towner
John McLaughlin

I appreciate Alan’s contribution. Thanks Buddy. You did your homework. I reviewed some links quickly and discovered that some guys used metronomes as bandmembers in their clinics, not as learning tools, which is what I asked for originally (“List all the players who state that a metronome contributed to their sense of time&#8221. I’ve used metronomes myself in clinics as a drummer, or my foot, or a drum machine or a real drummer.But, I will never state that my sense of time came from a click because it didn’t. This is what I was looking for.

To continue, Billy Sheehan, in fact, dismisses the idea that a metronome contributed anything toward his good time sense (we toured together for 2 months and talked about this). The John McLaughlin and John Scofield filmclips are ads. They were hired to do Korg videos to promote their metronome and had to invent simple exercies for the film date that they were paid to perform in.I know them both and they never believed that a metronome was a part of their developed sense of time. David Hungate apparently once commented, “the best way to develop good time is to play with people with good time, but since they won't let you the next best thing is to play with the records they are on." If this is true, then you have found Hungate’s preferred choice to acquire good time and a metronome isn’t a part of it.

Yet some on this list do believe that a metronome was instrumental in helping them acquire their sense of time. I lament this, because the implication is that if there were no metronome in the world to help the metronome supporters acquire their sense of time, then they must have believed that they weren’t good enough musicians to learn how to play in time without it. That is a sad thing to believe about yourself.

On this thread alone, there have been over 9,000 viewings of what we’ve been writing back and forth to each other. Yet, only one guy offered a list of around 30 names. Even if I artificially multiply this list by 10, you will still only come up with 300 names of teacher/players nationwide who support the notion that a metronome is a tool that helps to provide good time to those who use it. I am not impressed with the turn-out. This was the metronome supporters' opportunity to show enough circumstantial proof that lots of great players share their belief in the validity of practicing with a click. But, out of over 9,000 viewers, only one guy stepped up to the plate and this is EXACTLY what I thought was going to happen. A couple of guys offered a couple of names as well. This is why I opened up the possibility to list these guys. I knew that few could or even would try to offer some circumstantial evidence that metronomes are a firm part of many pro's developmental life their claim. Why? Because they can’t! There aren’t many metronome supporters in the pro ranks who believe in practicing with metronomes as much as some on Talkbass or other places do.

At this point, I am done with discussing metronomes. I have nothing else that I can offer. My well runneth dry! I tried via historical precedence, industry requirements, conservatory methodology, elements of practice that go back a long long time, and now, a little bit of general proof to show that if you wish to learn how to play in time, you have to go about it in a different way. Frankly, metronome supporters here have have lost any credibility because now it is just talk without substance. Only Alan Vorse came forward. Good man! In fact, I predict that there will be a discussion like you've never seen. People will dissect each word, examine and punch holes in almost every sentence that I've written. Please report back and let me know when this takes place, because it is absolutely coming.

Regarding clicks, you can jam with it, practice subdivisional ear training with it, but you will never in a million years acquire good time from practicing with it. Let’s move on to something else because the guys who want to improve already got the message.

P.S. In the last several days I asked everybody to list anything that is best learned in time. Nobody came up with one single thing. This is hardcore proof that absolutely everything that is learned is best learned out of time until you have learned it well. Everything, without exception is best learned this way! If one cannot mention anything anywhere that is best learned in time, then logic suggests that music must be included in this universal principal as well.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Quadruple Jay]

How about slow things down. What about playing the click on the "and" of 2.

This is kind of what I was getting at when I asked about the Vic video earlier. Do you think that using a metronome to practice performance in this way would be useful? (i.e. performing to a metronome tick and getting comfortable, then moving the tick to a different place)

I try to put as much emphasis as I can on learning notes, harmony, chords, etc. as I can when I practice, but I find it's nice to able to step back for a while and work on the way I hear rhythms. I like to put myself in the uncomfortable position of a beat being placed where I'm not used to it being placed.

I find the more uncomfortable places I can put myself in practice and performance, the quicker I improve and the quicker I learn to "think on my feet", so to speak. Maybe that's just the way that I learn?

 

[JeffBerlin]

This is kind of what I was getting at when I asked about the Vic video earlier. Do you think that using a metronome to practice performance in this way would be useful? (i.e. performing to a metronome tick and getting comfortable, then moving the tick to a different place)

I try to put as much emphasis as I can on learning notes, harmony, chords, etc. as I can when I practice, but I find it's nice to able to step back for a while and work on the way I hear rhythms. I like to put myself in the uncomfortable position of a beat being placed where I'm not used to it being placed.

I find the more uncomfortable places I can put myself in practice and performance, the quicker I improve and the quicker I learn to "think on my feet", so to speak. Maybe that's just the way that I learn?

One important thing to suggest is to not put yourself deliberately into uncomfortable musical situations. Music itself can be uncomfortable as you are dissecting the particulars in whatever new piece of music or exercise you are working on. You won't improve by deliberately making things hard on yourself, when a lot of new music is already hard to begin with. Some teachers like Mick Goodrick use metronomes to subdivide rhythms with. I don't know much about that but I do know that at least he isn't using one to develop good time with.

Did I answer your question correctly? Please let me know.

 

[TripleDouble]

A great sense of inner time is best learned in time. I've said it before, check out Adam Nitti's awesome exercise's on tb about using a metronome to keep YOUR time honest.

 

[refbassist]

to be frank i have never practiced with a metronome when i started playing music 20 years ago my first teacher told me to use my foot or metronome if i have one and frankly i never thought of buying one and i never did also he quoted "TIME IS THE BOSS" which turned out to be an old article by you Jeff,so i used the quote and my left foot and oh that worked a treat
Just my 2 cents on the metro thingy..

 

[JeffBerlin]

A great sense of inner time is best learned in time. I've said it before, check out Adam Nitti's awesome exercise's on tb about using a metronome to keep YOUR time honest.

If you know how to play, you will keep your time honest. Everybody does!

 

[pedro]

This maybe off topic but it (IMO) illustrates the importance of a good teacher. Some years ago my son and I were in NYC looking at music schools and noticed that the great Cuban trumpeter Arturo Sandoval was giving a clinic at the Blue Note. So we hustled down to the Blue Note and settled in. Arturo told a story about how (recently) he had wanted to study with a famous classical trumpeter (name escapes me). So he (Arturo) invited the prospective teacher to one of his shows. Arturo said he felt pretty good about his playing and met with the teacher backstage. The prospective teacher asked him to stop by the next day for their first lesson. Arturo arrived and sat down not knowing what to expect. He said that the teacher placed in front of him a beginning trumpet book and basically had him playing whole notes for the lesson. What I find amazing is that a guy of Arturo’s skill and accomplishments still felt the need for instruction.

 

[JeffBerlin]

to be frank i have never practiced with a metronome when i started playing music 20 years ago my first teacher told me to use my foot or metronome if i have one and frankly i never thought of buying one and i never did also he quoted "TIME IS THE BOSS" which turned out to be an old article by you Jeff,so i used the quote and my left foot and oh that worked a treat
Just my 2 cents on the metro thingy..

In performance, you can play bad notes, but not sound too badly if you are in time. I've grown since I made that statement and have separated much more academics and art. I also recognize that practically everybody plays in time if one has learned how to play. Guys are overstating an experience that already exists within the musical ability to play music. In other words, you rarely see videos emphasising harmony or playing the right notes because these things aren't interesting to many players. So they over emphasize learn how to play in time as if you weren't going to able to do this had you learned music the correct ways. Of course you will. It is automatically built into the steadily improving playing ability that all musicians experience as they improve in music, not licks.