It was to allow Arturo to improve his embouchure. The whole notes are rhythmically and harmonically super easy to play. The only thing left to deal with is one's tone and technique. This was the lesson that Arturo's teacher was trying to convey to him. Arturo is one of the greatest virtuoso trumpet players in the world. And yet, he was willing to study something basic, to review and improve his technique via 100% musical methods. I am telling you guys, MUSIC SOLVES ALL THINGS WITHOUT FAIL.
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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed
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It was to allow Arturo to improve his embouchure. The whole notes are rhythmically and harmonically super easy to play. The only thing left to deal with is one's tone and technique. This was the lesson that Arturo's teacher was trying to convey to him. Arturo is one of the greatest virtuoso trumpet players in the world. And yet, he was willing to study something basic, to review and improve his technique via 100% musical methods. I am telling you guys, MUSIC SOLVES ALL THINGS WITHOUT FAIL.
Just make that what you study is reviewed out of time until you feel that you have learned it well. Then play it in time, the time that you hear, and tap your foot. If you make mistakes, this is no big deal. Everybody makes them even while they are slowly improving. Good luck Pal.
Jeff, saying slow down is something you'll probably never say too much. Today was one of those real slow and out of time days, and I saw stuff I didn't realize before. It's also what I have to say in almost every lesson I give more than once! I keep having to remind myself! Thanks for all of your contributions and enjoy Italy!
I have a question that doesn't have anything to do with metronomes, electronic tuners, and hand grips.
Jeff,
I know that you play through a lot of transcriptions of non-bass players (horn players and piano players). Do you typically read these in treble clef and "arrange for electric bass" on the fly? I have lots of transcriptions and I have been working on this as of late, but sometimes there's a weird mental disconnect when reading treble clef on bass. (For the record, I have a background in jazz piano and have been playing bass seriously for about 5 or 6 years.) I find that I have to say the notes audibly when working through the section at a slow tempo.
My goals are to get to a point where I'm REALLY playing through the changes melodically and finding those "hooks" between the chords that make the changes sound so good rather than playing ON each chord change.
Any advice or thoughts?
Thanks,
Ben
Jeff,
I know that you play through a lot of transcriptions of non-bass players (horn players and piano players). Do you typically read these in treble clef and "arrange for electric bass" on the fly? I have lots of transcriptions and I have been working on this as of late, but sometimes there's a weird mental disconnect when reading treble clef on bass. (For the record, I have a background in jazz piano and have been playing bass seriously for about 5 or 6 years.) I find that I have to say the notes audibly when working through the section at a slow tempo.
My goals are to get to a point where I'm REALLY playing through the changes melodically and finding those "hooks" between the chords that make the changes sound so good rather than playing ON each chord change.
Any advice or thoughts?
Thanks,
Ben
That was my point. If someone like Arturo could benefit from 'good' instruction imagine how much the rest of us could benefit.
A guy name Chris Kuykendall wrote something that might answer this for you via a question. Please tell me how you would answer this. Chris asked, If some people think that good timing comes from practicing with metronomes, do they also think that all music before 1816 was played out of time?
Let me know if you think that good time in musicians didn't appear in symphony orchestras, or small group ensembles before 1816. Thank you.
I was perfectly content lurking on this thread, but I've been propelled to offer a perspective (not necessarily mine, but a perspective nonetheless).
On the TBDB side, there are a great many professional working "jazz" bassists. Some came from Electric Bass, some not.
There are also a great many Orchestral, Bluegrass and Rockabilly players, but I admit I don't read those threads much.
Independent of this thread, there is a topic that came up about developing an internal sense of time using a metronome. I found it a useful and interesting read.
I should point out, that it no where says "use a metronome" to learn a piece of music. I agree with this. It does however, offer some individual experiences on how working with a metronome as a tool, not a crutch, helped address some deficiencies in placement of the beat, and rushing or dragging so that eventually the player could have a greater command of placement while in performance with others.
Mike Arnopol goes into great detail: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=604562
In my own practice, I use a metronome in the way John Allen describes. I also use it to bring my quarter note walking and soloing up to speed if I am reading a transcribed part (after spending time with it sans nome). Then I will play with the original recordings to get a greater sense of the time feel of the particular artist that has been transcribed. I also use a Kai Eckhardt exercise to subdivide against.
To Mr. Berlin's point, I do not use it in "performance".
On the TBDB side, there are a great many professional working "jazz" bassists. Some came from Electric Bass, some not.
There are also a great many Orchestral, Bluegrass and Rockabilly players, but I admit I don't read those threads much.
Independent of this thread, there is a topic that came up about developing an internal sense of time using a metronome. I found it a useful and interesting read.
I should point out, that it no where says "use a metronome" to learn a piece of music. I agree with this. It does however, offer some individual experiences on how working with a metronome as a tool, not a crutch, helped address some deficiencies in placement of the beat, and rushing or dragging so that eventually the player could have a greater command of placement while in performance with others.
Mike Arnopol goes into great detail: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=604562
In my own practice, I use a metronome in the way John Allen describes. I also use it to bring my quarter note walking and soloing up to speed if I am reading a transcribed part (after spending time with it sans nome). Then I will play with the original recordings to get a greater sense of the time feel of the particular artist that has been transcribed. I also use a Kai Eckhardt exercise to subdivide against.
To Mr. Berlin's point, I do not use it in "performance".
Hi Bill. Your comments are going to inspire a lot of guys here to go your route of learning. Slowing down to regard information may not feel as nice as playing in time (even I know that). But, there is no way, not one way, ZERO WAYS that a musician will learn better than to slow down and learn the music first. Congratulations. As you learn your homework, then you will notice an organic feeling to play music in different tempos. This is the first signs that you are learning well. Congrats and thanks for the wishes about Italy.
Roy Vogt
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Deficiencies in time are a symptom of deficiencies in knowledge and experience. Placement of a beat is a piece of cake if you know the notes that you are placing. This comes from experience, practice, knowledge of the instrument, and knowledge of the style of music that one is playing (now I'll talk about performance). People only rush or drag if they don't know what they are doing. You can't force someone to know what they are doing by insisting that they keep up with a click. Playing in time is a RESULT of learning well. You can't play in time if you haven't learned how to play well. I don't know one musician in the pro ranks who has a problem with time, not one. Why? Because they have all learned how to play well. But because many players today haven't learned how to play well, who really aren't interested in learning music, who don't practice properly, but who also include a metronome in their musical lives, they will never acquire that which they claim that they are seeking.
Apologies, but these aren't my rules. Nobody in any field can know well their subject matter until they have the experience and knowledge to execute well that which they are seeking to learn. You have to "learn it" before you can "use it". If you hear music in your head and you have trouble playing it, then no metronome will help you because you haven't learned how to play yet. Learning music and practicing will fix this.
P.S. could you quote Mike Arnopol and print it here so that I can read what he says? Also, I don't know john Allen. What does he say?
Interestingly, when I transcribe music, I only do it in treble clef. I can read both clefs equally well, but I prefer to read or write in treble. I can read both clefs on the fly because I have years on both clefs. This falls directly into what I've been saying this afternoon; experience and knowledge will make good musicians out of us all.
If the music that you are transcribing or reading is of solid harmonic stuff, then it doesn't really matter what clef you are involved in. Realize that a lot of music is only meant for regard, not direct quoting. The more that you learn, the more that you will have new information swimming around in your musical soul. Read both clefs if you feel like it. Just make sure that the music that you are working on is valid, good, harmonically meaningful stuff. They you are in the top levels of music to practice.
Vicky just sent me a quote to share with you all. She knows that I am in a chat about musical things and she found this. "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."--Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius
Great stuff. It makes one think....
Great stuff. It makes one think....
This is pretty lengthy:
The conversation continued:
More as to the end result of his work:
To quote another working Chicago Bassist from the same thread:
I hope they don't mind me quoting them over here. But, all I can say is they are clearly talking about their personal experience as professional jazz musicians.
Great Quote this's what made great prophets,philosophers, innovators and great thinkers what they are!!
I would like to be able to play a little more out of my comfort zone and take my playing up a notch, but I don't really want to get bogged down with a lot of theory. I'm mostly a "by ear" player, but if I have to think about notes and scales, it slows me down. What do you suggest?
^^ This was John Allen's earlier post that I referenced.
I would like to mention that I take what you say seriously, and am not in an argument about metronome use. Your convictions are deservedly yours based on experience.
I do have a teacher who is showing me rich harmonic language (much of it still beyond my reach at this stage of my studies- and to your point, at the center is chordal studies). As well as a variety of components I presume you would endorse from your earlier statements. He also puts his own experience into action with the Bobby Hutcherson Quartet.
I do sometimes use a metronome in practice. But only to check my internal sense of time against a constant to determine how strong I am at various tempos.
When in performance, I adjust to the environment around me, and try to come to it with all the "internalized" knowledge I can so that I make music as opposed to analyze my way through it (and otherwise compromise the immediacy of that kind of situation).
This is pretty lengthy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol View Post
Most of the guys that I try to emulate sit up on the beat. The problem is hearing the time and dance of the groove so that you don't rush. It also depends on the relationship with the drummer. I used to practice with the metronome set to 2 and 4 and try to feel beat placement while being aware of the tempo so that I didn't rush. I'd liken it to having a rubber band between the beat center and me and keep that tension consistent. That way you don't rush. With different drummers and in different situations the distance between your attack and the beat center can vary, but the awareness of that tension---and not increasing it is the goal. If the tension increases you rush. I'm being overly analitical about this and ultimately it is counterproductive to TRY to think this way on a gig. As a matter of fact, any time you think about beat placement on a gig will insure that it will feel like crap. It has to be internalized. Hence, breaking it down and learning to practice it. When I started out, I used to rush like a mofo. So I had to figure out how to practice to have the time and relationship to the beat internalized. Then you have to deal with the drummer. You have to feel the drummer's DANCE. I use this term because it's not just a matter of high hat, ride cymbal, etc. It's all of that combined that produce his groove. I tell students that they have to hear the drummer's dance and naturally place themselves as part of that dance. I know so many bassists that can only play with a certain kind of drummer. Obviously, with a drummer that drags there isn't much you can do but get through the gig and get paid, but it's nice to be able to play with drummers with different time feels. Lots of guys can't play with "center of the beat" drummers. These bassists can only play with an "on top" drummer. Things feel like crap because the bassist's beat placement is so far ahead of the drummer that the beat is uncomfortably wide. And it will have a tendency to rush because the bassist is trying to pull the drummer to his perceived beat placement.
So, my advice is ---practice feeling the beat in different ways with the metronome to solidify yout internal time. Listen to a lot of different bass/drummer combinations to hear/feel what they are doing. If you listen to a lot of successful bass/drummer combinations these will also be internalized as feel references. Listen to how the drummers you are playing with feel the groove. This will also become a natural tendency that will be internalized.
If you do all of these then you can do the most important thing----forget about all of this crap and play. You really can't groove if you're in your left brain analyzing. To paraphrase Miles---if you're thinking about the moment it's already gone.
The conversation continued:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol View Post
I play a lot without drums. It's an art unto itself. This may sound abstract, but I try to emulate what it FEELS like as if I had the perfect drummer. Not how I'd PLAY with that drummer---it's a different thing----but the groove and dance that we would play together as a net result. Once I have that in my head I play so that with the piano, or whatever that it feels like the groove with the bass/drums combination. It's funny, but it's just a natural adjustment. At this point I'd have a hard time articulating exactly what I do differently. As I said earlier, you have the groove in your head (and your body) and you naturally adjust to actualize that feel. I know that I play with a little more "bounce" ( Ray Brown as opposed to Ron Carter) without drums. I tend to play more forceful but legato with a drummer. It's funny, but I did a recording where we played a very uptempo tune. Sax bass and drums. The producer had this bright idea that they would pull out the drums for the first few choruses. It went on the cd this way ('cest la vie) but it sounded dumb to me. I was playing well, I think, but it sounded exactly as if we had recorded with drums and then removed the drums. Everyone dug it, but I would have played differently without the drums being there. (and i would have sounded better!)
More as to the end result of his work:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol View Post
I like the rubber band analogy. Typically, the drummer and bass will be in front of the beat. That's how I like it, although as Eric had said, as a working bassist, we have to make things feel great with a diverse group of drummers. Back to the rubber band. Imagine the rubber band connected to the beat or pulse center. The more you pull up from that center the more tension created. (forward feeling pulse) As long as you're aware of that tension and it stays the same, things don't rush. The drummer can play a bit ahead of you, or maybe a bit behind, but as long as the tension between him and the beat doesn't increase he won't rush. Some bass drum combinations can both be very in front of the beat but as long as they're aware of the center pulse it will have an intense propulsion but won't rush. It gets a bit risky if you don't watch it. A lot of jazz stuff accelerates a bit as a result of this. For me, a little is ok---a lot is not. There are many classic recordings out there where the ending tempo is a lot faster. Miles' Four and More is one. Ron plays up on the beat, but Tony REALLY plays up on the beat. I get into a lot of arguments on this one. The tunes really rush. Too much for my taste, but this is a desert island record for many. If you listen to PC/Jimmy Cobb on "Kind of Blue" things swing and feel awesome to me. On mid 60's live Wes Montgomery stuff with the same two things really rush.
When I started out there was a drummer in town considered "the" cat. I played my first gig with him and it was awful. Everything rushed tons. The reason it rushed so bad was that my beat placement was too close to the center of the beat for him. So he kept increasing the tension that I spoke of to pull me forward in the beat. So if you remember what I said about that rubber band, he kept increasing that tension---so things sped up.After that I only practiced walking with a metronome to get my internal time clock stronger so that I could play further up on the beat without rushing. A year later I played with him and nothing rushed. (at least too much) We had that feel of "urgency" that he dug and all was good. You have to judge the circumstance, though. Years ago, I first played with some older cats that were a bit more "swing" players. During the first set I could tell that they weren't digging my playing too much. Here I am playing on top in a way that I would with a more modern jazz ensemble. But they (not so nicely) told me that I was pushing too hard.Since I had worked on strengthening my internal time, I was able to adjust and the gig went great. Well enough that I started getting called for more of those type of gigs. (which I didn't like so much anyway)
* * *
There is nothing like on the bandstand experience. But there are some things that all the on stage experience won't help. I know this because I had to find a way to improve and expand my understanding and execution of time feel. It can (and should, I believe ) be like any other learned aspect of our playing. As I had stated, once you're on the stand, analyzing and thinking about time and feel will only insure that things won' feel good. Time and feel can be deepened and expanded by breaking down the elements and working on them. Technical (velocity) chops came easily to me.But time and feel chops were harder for me. Like a lot of young jazzers, I rushed and had an inconsistent time feel. 30 years of bandstand experience surely would have helped, but finding a way not only to practice to improve and solidify feel, but to really internalize different approaches to the beat demanded a lot of analysis and finding methods to understand and break things into parts. And then to get back to the bandstand to actualize what was learned. Some act like time and feel are genetic gifts, but that way of thinking reminds me of people who say " You're so talented, I just don't know how do you do that?' as if we pop out of the womb playing a G major scale.
Jeff: I don't refute a lot of what he said. I just recognize that experience is a steady event. All great jazz players recognize the shifting quarter note; some guys rush (Max Roach) some guys dragged (Sonny Rollins on occasion). Some guys played more staccato (Charlie Haden) some guys played legato (Ron Carter). The point is, all musicians will become whatever it is that they practice and learn. All of them 100% without fail. Jazz is such a shifting, swinging elastic, millions-of-ways-to-hear-the-quarter-note art form, that no click can solve the necessary human embrace of this broad music. This year I did a tour with John Abercrombie, and I changed the way that I walked just a little bit to accomodate the way that John heard the quarter note. So, to simply pull one comment from this post, Mike said something that I totally agree with: He said, "I'm being overly analitical about this and ultimately it is counterproductive to TRY to think this way on a gig. As a matter of fact, any time you think about beat placement on a gig will insure that it will feel like crap."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol View Post
Most of the guys that I try to emulate sit up on the beat. The problem is hearing the time and dance of the groove so that you don't rush. It also depends on the relationship with the drummer. I used to practice with the metronome set to 2 and 4 and try to feel beat placement while being aware of the tempo so that I didn't rush. I'd liken it to having a rubber band between the beat center and me and keep that tension consistent. That way you don't rush. With different drummers and in different situations the distance between your attack and the beat center can vary, but the awareness of that tension---and not increasing it is the goal. If the tension increases you rush. I'm being overly analitical about this and ultimately it is counterproductive to TRY to think this way on a gig. As a matter of fact, any time you think about beat placement on a gig will insure that it will feel like crap. It has to be internalized. Hence, breaking it down and learning to practice it. When I started out, I used to rush like a mofo. So I had to figure out how to practice to have the time and relationship to the beat internalized. Then you have to deal with the drummer. You have to feel the drummer's DANCE. I use this term because it's not just a matter of high hat, ride cymbal, etc. It's all of that combined that produce his groove. I tell students that they have to hear the drummer's dance and naturally place themselves as part of that dance. I know so many bassists that can only play with a certain kind of drummer. Obviously, with a drummer that drags there isn't much you can do but get through the gig and get paid, but it's nice to be able to play with drummers with different time feels. Lots of guys can't play with "center of the beat" drummers. These bassists can only play with an "on top" drummer. Things feel like crap because the bassist's beat placement is so far ahead of the drummer that the beat is uncomfortably wide. And it will have a tendency to rush because the bassist is trying to pull the drummer to his perceived beat placement.
So, my advice is ---practice feeling the beat in different ways with the metronome to solidify yout internal time. Listen to a lot of different bass/drummer combinations to hear/feel what they are doing. If you listen to a lot of successful bass/drummer combinations these will also be internalized as feel references. Listen to how the drummers you are playing with feel the groove. This will also become a natural tendency that will be internalized.
If you do all of these then you can do the most important thing----forget about all of this crap and play. You really can't groove if you're in your left brain analyzing. To paraphrase Miles---if you're thinking about the moment it's already gone.
The conversation continued:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol View Post
I play a lot without drums. It's an art unto itself. This may sound abstract, but I try to emulate what it FEELS like as if I had the perfect drummer. Not how I'd PLAY with that drummer---it's a different thing----but the groove and dance that we would play together as a net result. Once I have that in my head I play so that with the piano, or whatever that it feels like the groove with the bass/drums combination. It's funny, but it's just a natural adjustment. At this point I'd have a hard time articulating exactly what I do differently. As I said earlier, you have the groove in your head (and your body) and you naturally adjust to actualize that feel. I know that I play with a little more "bounce" ( Ray Brown as opposed to Ron Carter) without drums. I tend to play more forceful but legato with a drummer. It's funny, but I did a recording where we played a very uptempo tune. Sax bass and drums. The producer had this bright idea that they would pull out the drums for the first few choruses. It went on the cd this way ('cest la vie) but it sounded dumb to me. I was playing well, I think, but it sounded exactly as if we had recorded with drums and then removed the drums. Everyone dug it, but I would have played differently without the drums being there. (and i would have sounded better!)
More as to the end result of his work:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol View Post
I like the rubber band analogy. Typically, the drummer and bass will be in front of the beat. That's how I like it, although as Eric had said, as a working bassist, we have to make things feel great with a diverse group of drummers. Back to the rubber band. Imagine the rubber band connected to the beat or pulse center. The more you pull up from that center the more tension created. (forward feeling pulse) As long as you're aware of that tension and it stays the same, things don't rush. The drummer can play a bit ahead of you, or maybe a bit behind, but as long as the tension between him and the beat doesn't increase he won't rush. Some bass drum combinations can both be very in front of the beat but as long as they're aware of the center pulse it will have an intense propulsion but won't rush. It gets a bit risky if you don't watch it. A lot of jazz stuff accelerates a bit as a result of this. For me, a little is ok---a lot is not. There are many classic recordings out there where the ending tempo is a lot faster. Miles' Four and More is one. Ron plays up on the beat, but Tony REALLY plays up on the beat. I get into a lot of arguments on this one. The tunes really rush. Too much for my taste, but this is a desert island record for many. If you listen to PC/Jimmy Cobb on "Kind of Blue" things swing and feel awesome to me. On mid 60's live Wes Montgomery stuff with the same two things really rush.
When I started out there was a drummer in town considered "the" cat. I played my first gig with him and it was awful. Everything rushed tons. The reason it rushed so bad was that my beat placement was too close to the center of the beat for him. So he kept increasing the tension that I spoke of to pull me forward in the beat. So if you remember what I said about that rubber band, he kept increasing that tension---so things sped up.After that I only practiced walking with a metronome to get my internal time clock stronger so that I could play further up on the beat without rushing. A year later I played with him and nothing rushed. (at least too much) We had that feel of "urgency" that he dug and all was good. You have to judge the circumstance, though. Years ago, I first played with some older cats that were a bit more "swing" players. During the first set I could tell that they weren't digging my playing too much. Here I am playing on top in a way that I would with a more modern jazz ensemble. But they (not so nicely) told me that I was pushing too hard.Since I had worked on strengthening my internal time, I was able to adjust and the gig went great. Well enough that I started getting called for more of those type of gigs. (which I didn't like so much anyway)
* * *
There is nothing like on the bandstand experience. But there are some things that all the on stage experience won't help. I know this because I had to find a way to improve and expand my understanding and execution of time feel. It can (and should, I believe ) be like any other learned aspect of our playing. As I had stated, once you're on the stand, analyzing and thinking about time and feel will only insure that things won' feel good. Time and feel can be deepened and expanded by breaking down the elements and working on them. Technical (velocity) chops came easily to me.But time and feel chops were harder for me. Like a lot of young jazzers, I rushed and had an inconsistent time feel. 30 years of bandstand experience surely would have helped, but finding a way not only to practice to improve and solidify feel, but to really internalize different approaches to the beat demanded a lot of analysis and finding methods to understand and break things into parts. And then to get back to the bandstand to actualize what was learned. Some act like time and feel are genetic gifts, but that way of thinking reminds me of people who say " You're so talented, I just don't know how do you do that?' as if we pop out of the womb playing a G major scale.
Jeff: I don't refute a lot of what he said. I just recognize that experience is a steady event. All great jazz players recognize the shifting quarter note; some guys rush (Max Roach) some guys dragged (Sonny Rollins on occasion). Some guys played more staccato (Charlie Haden) some guys played legato (Ron Carter). The point is, all musicians will become whatever it is that they practice and learn. All of them 100% without fail. Jazz is such a shifting, swinging elastic, millions-of-ways-to-hear-the-quarter-note art form, that no click can solve the necessary human embrace of this broad music. This year I did a tour with John Abercrombie, and I changed the way that I walked just a little bit to accomodate the way that John heard the quarter note. So, to simply pull one comment from this post, Mike said something that I totally agree with: He said, "I'm being overly analitical about this and ultimately it is counterproductive to TRY to think this way on a gig. As a matter of fact, any time you think about beat placement on a gig will insure that it will feel like crap."
Music appears to be the core of what you do. It seems to be the same with Mr. Allen. This is a wonderful thing and so I would never negatively comment about anything that musicians who are seeking out higher standards of music are looking for. In fact, I have never seen such an acceptance of the things that I have been talking about, and I have never seen such a group of guys so into music as I have found on this thread. I am totally blown away about how this thread is turning out. Don't you other guys feel the same?
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