Lenny didn't take beginners because beginners didn't seek him out. They couldn't handle his lessons. Ask your teacher if he was a beginner when he studied with Tristano. The answer will be No.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed
- Thread starter JeffBerlin
- Start date
- Status
Lenny didn't take beginners because beginners didn't seek him out. They couldn't handle his lessons. Ask your teacher if he was a beginner when he studied with Tristano. The answer will be No.
Thank you. I am a lucky father to have such a great son like Jason. His brother Sean is terrific as well.
Jeff Ive taken your advice and learned some theory... but what do i do with it?
It does NOT help me make music... I know the modes of the major scale, chords, etc but the second i start playing thats the last thing i think about.... When i play or jam for fun...
Honestly i feel like i knew theory all along just from my own trial and error of what "things sounded like" and all the possible combinations on bass now i know oh this is dimished this is augmented etc.. this is locrian mode..I now know what certain things are called..
Also
I really want to learn jazz... Should i try to learn all these songs by ear or actually play them through the chord charts?
Should i just play through a real book right off the bat?
Also when i solo in jazz i just kinda go with a chromatic approach ... and use my ear
When soloing over a jazz progression do you pay attention to the total center (key), the chord changes, or neither ??
Is there an actual method to your amazing jazz soloing or is it just all chromatics and what sounds good?
Also jeff much respect man to take the time to help us... It takes alot of Humility from a guy like you to post on a forum answering all our silly questions
It does NOT help me make music... I know the modes of the major scale, chords, etc but the second i start playing thats the last thing i think about.... When i play or jam for fun...
Honestly i feel like i knew theory all along just from my own trial and error of what "things sounded like" and all the possible combinations on bass now i know oh this is dimished this is augmented etc.. this is locrian mode..I now know what certain things are called..
Also
I really want to learn jazz... Should i try to learn all these songs by ear or actually play them through the chord charts?
Should i just play through a real book right off the bat?
Also when i solo in jazz i just kinda go with a chromatic approach ... and use my ear
When soloing over a jazz progression do you pay attention to the total center (key), the chord changes, or neither ??
Is there an actual method to your amazing jazz soloing or is it just all chromatics and what sounds good?
Also jeff much respect man to take the time to help us... It takes alot of Humility from a guy like you to post on a forum answering all our silly questions
As someone already said, you are adding nothing to this.
Your rebuttal is dealing with something 2-3 student generations down the line (i.e. what your teacher is doing with the click and raw beginners) instead of what the players/teachers Mr. Berlin is refering to do/or have done.
You're just looking to butt heads.
Stop with the jerk stuff like "You make this so hard".
Or just stop.
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
I've been mostly a lurker in this thread, because others are covering the ground that I'm interested in much better than I can. It goes back to my core belief on learning - God gave me two ears and one mouth so I listen twice as much as I speak!
This is probably the best thread I've ever seen on TB (I've been hanging on TB since '04). The advice and content in this thread is rich, and DEEP. The respect level in this thread is very high as well on all sides. It's a real pleasure to read and absorb the information here when everyone wants to contribute and learn from each other, and not just win for the sake of winning. Plus, having the added benefit of Roy Vogt, John Goldsby, and Ed Freidland contribute as well - simply amazing.
Keep it up everyone! The mods should sticky this thread for posterity!
This is probably the best thread I've ever seen on TB (I've been hanging on TB since '04). The advice and content in this thread is rich, and DEEP. The respect level in this thread is very high as well on all sides. It's a real pleasure to read and absorb the information here when everyone wants to contribute and learn from each other, and not just win for the sake of winning. Plus, having the added benefit of Roy Vogt, John Goldsby, and Ed Freidland contribute as well - simply amazing.
Keep it up everyone! The mods should sticky this thread for posterity!
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,736
- 8,941
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Jeff, that's the second time someone other than you has asked me to bow out; it's your thread, if that's what you want, just let me know.
But as regards the above, I didn't say Lennie took beginners, my teacher (who studied with Lennie, PB, not "2 or 3 generations of students") does teach beginners using Lennie's methods. As did Warne, as does Connie. Now I'm sure if I started speculating about why Charlie did the things he did with his students with no direct knowledge of those methods, you'd probably want to set me straight about that, right?
OK, fair enough, 1 generation, but still not on point.
But....I was pretty much right on here.
Music education is for enlightenment. It is not for direct use. How does a batter "use" what he has learned in batting practice if a pitcher many not comply with what he was working on? Answer: He doesn't! it is time involved with the sport that he loves, and working on the details to improve his game. It is the same with music. But you really have to love to play. If you love to play and improve your playing, then it isn't too much of a stretch to include some excellent practice in your plans.
No Man! Don't leave! Just take it easy! You seem to be a little wound up! My entire premise is that anybody who use a metronome mostly use it as a drummer. Pat Metheny does in your metronome endorsement list, as do many other players. John Scofield uses it as a drummer. Mike Stern does. John McLaughlin does. I know these guys and none of them practice with metronome to improve their time, now, or in the past. Also, there are teachers who teach with a click using it as an ear training device. Dave Liebman does! So does Mick Goodrick! They use it to subdivide the beat and to function with this. These are Liebman's very words. He never extends using a metronome past an extremely temporary time to work on subdivision. This practice lasts a couple of weeks and then that's it. And to do these exercises, you already have to know how to play WELL. Nobody can subdivide rhythm if they don't know how to play. The truth is, only bass players seem to teach long term use of metronomes, probably because they don't know any better.
This is how I knew for a fact that your teacher was no beginner when he studied with Lennie Tristano, and therefore, was already good enough to partake of Lennie's ear training lessons with a metronome. THIS is using the device as a tool, not the way that so many other guys are using it. I've said it for years, I've said it here, and I will say it forever because I am right; you will never improve your time by playing with a metronome. You will improve your time when you improve your playing skills, knowledge of music, and the style of music that you are playing.
Jeff, I know you're leaving. Last evening I had a discussion with a superior at the school I give private lessons at. Did not go well, the piano teacher was talking about students who just do not have rythmn. Well... I did the hand clap and said everyone can do that, so we have an inate sense of time. The teacher then said they can count the rythmn but not play it on the piano. When I replied it was probably a coordination problem to work out of time, I got a glare and thankfully we were interupted! Again, slow and out of time is the one thing you preach that I get the most negative feedback from, I've tried it and it works, and I think the heavy hitters like both Ed's on here agree with that point too.
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
Hi Jeff, I'm really digging your discussion here, and I think it is great that you are taking the time to share your wisdom and experience with all of us. You are right -- TalkBass is a fantastic forum with a lot of passionate, inquisitive bass players hanging around.
Someone tipped me off that I was "mentioned" here, so I thought I would comment on the Invalid Link Removed where I talk about practicing the bass. Regarding practicing with or without gadgets, I wrote this in that particular article:
"Practice things slowly or even out-of-time to make sure that you nail the notes and fingerings. I think that a metronome is a useful tool when practicing; just like "play-along" CDs, "Band-In-A-Box," and drum machines. Always remember that you are practicing so your bass lines and solos groove on their own. A good bass player (that would be you) can groove alone or with a drummer, with a click-track or with stuff falling down stairs. It is up to you to make it feel good."
Later in my list of 60 things to practice, I write:
". . . play with a metronome on 2 & 4. Also practice without the metronome."
I think it is obvious from what I say there, that while I would approve the use of a metronome in certain practice situations, it is more important to take a musically effective approach to learning. I agree with you that slow, even out-of-time practice is the most effective way to start. Although I will not agree to use my metronome as a paperweight
Keep writing -- I'm glad you are hanging out on this forum!
Jeff -
Above is one of Goldsby's posts.
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
Lots of different books, different tunes, exercises that are in different rhythms, the usual stuff.
I am told that John Goldsby wrote this. For years I believed that the best column that BP ever published was John's. He's a musician first, he knows his stuff and I totally respect him. He writes one of the best columns that Bass Player ever published.
John, have we ever met? My brain has turned into oatmeal the older that I get. If we haven't can you come by the Markbass or the DR Strings booth at NAMM and say hi? Also, I'll be playing with Danny Gottlieb and Sid Jacobs at the Cort booth.
Best,
Jeff
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
Jeff - I totally agree with you about John's column. It's the main reason that I continue to read BP.
Enjoy Italy. We will miss your presence here for the next couple of weeks!
God Bless,
Ed
You are treading on sacred ground with this guy. Teachers believe what they believe no matter what is presented in front of them. One time I did a clinic and I had the audience all clap the "Chicken Dance" and they did it in time. I wanted to show that everybody has a pretty decent sense of common ground downbeats. Then I invited a woman who brought her son to the clinic and had her play a Van Halen bassline, simple to play, but this lady has never played any instrument in her life. Still, she played the eighth notes in PERFECT TIME because she didn't have to worry about note choices and could only concentrate on the time. Then I invited a guitar player to learn a 7 note bass line in a 12 tone row-esque tonality; none of the notes linked up harmonically. He flubbed the line for the first minute as I knew he would, and then he played the line in perfect time once he learned the notes well.
I told everybody that these were three distinct demonstrations of the internal-self, the ability to play in time and none of them ever used a metronome to develop this. I asked if anybody saw any flaw in my logic and would they tell me now. Not a single word was said.
The funny part of this story is what happened next. A guy who I knew came over to me and told me that a drum teacher who witnessed the whole thing, and who was asked to comment if he saw any flaws in what I had demonstrated said to my friend, "I don't care what Berlin says. I still think that metronomes give you good time!"
Some guys will never, for their entire lives, get the message about where good time comes from. Neither, it seems will the guy for whom you clapped to show where good time also comes from.
I also think there are two types of teachers, those who give weekly lessons, it is expected that the lesson is ready, and those that check progress. I'll ask a student if they practiced (they are usually quite honest) if the answer is yes then we go over how the student practiced. Sometimes all that is needed is more time, or a quick brush up in the lesson. All I want to see is improvement, we can always build on improvement but expecting a perfect performance every week is a bit much to ask of a student.
Exactly! I totally agree! All one wishes to see is improvement on a more or less steady schedule. I am writing this after an ensemble at The Players School of Music. A hard core rock bass player fron Canada just got done reading, walking and soloing over the chord changes on Cole Porter's "I Love You!" He couldn't tune his bass by ear even a couple of months ago. Now he is complaining because he isn't playing the chord changes as well as he would like, just like every great player does. The chords used to be a mystery to him. Now he doesn't like what he was playing over them. In only TWO MONTHS! This is fantastic to witness. He is unhappy with his artistic choices in only two months. Absolutely amazing!
Improvement is a steady Dow Jones-esque road. The Dow may dip, but it always goes up eventually. Always! So will everybody if they learn correctly. Thanks Bill.
- Status
Latest posts
-
-
-
Would you play gigs with a band that doesn't have a great PA?
- Latest: buldog5151bass
-
-