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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed
- Thread starter JeffBerlin
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Thanks, Jeff. I read both clefs too, but I need to practice reading treble clef on bass some more.
Here's what I have been working on...
Pat Metheny's solo on "Nothing Personal" - one of my favorites
Reading out of a Cannonball Adderley book by David Baker
Learning various bebop heads (Parker, Brown, etc..)
I'd like to add some Bill Evans to this list as well.
I'm not a virtuoso with any of this stuff, but I find that the more I work on it, then my playing improves and opens up in my non-jazz oriented gigs. I seem to be more creative with simpler forms of music.
If you have already closed a door on learning theory, something that might be an important avenue of learning for you, then I have no advice. Why say no to exactly those things that might get you what you are seeking. And why do it before you've even checked it out.
You certainly seem to be working on the right stuff. Just do it slowly, not to perform, but to duplicate at a minimum speed. As you learn more, your tempo will increase to a more performance-oriented speed. Good luck. P.S. I went to Youtube and I found this kid playing that solo. Check it out. P.P.S. You could find some solos a little bit more harmonically interesting than this solo by Pat. Go for those Bill Evans solos. pat is a great guitarist, but he repeats himself and his lines are mostly "horizontal" instead of "vertical". Bill Evans is "vertical". He plays much more chordal-type harmony than Pat does.
I've been playing for a long time (30+ years), I can read and have had instruction in theory - it's just something I'm not good at, and never will be (like math). If I have to think about it, it slows me down because I'm thinking, not playing.
It's not a matter of "practice more" or "learn more", it's the fact that it's not a language I speak well... again the same is true of math for me. I'm not "closing the door", I was just thinking there may be another way to improve by leaning the way I am ABLE to learn, not the way I'm told I have to learn. Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
That's one thing that's kept me a paying member of Talkbass - and this thread is like super rich icing on the already rich cake.
There are players of all stripes, levels, ilks and creeds here - and most are open to deep exploration of our shared love that starts with playing bass, but ends with music.
I've said it before - but I think is worth saying again - time and level of detail you've put into this thread is nothing short of fantastic. Regardless of anyone's stance on metronomes or other points of contention, your thoughtful participation here is very much appreciated!
Before this thread I'd only considered the 'controversial' things you've said in passing and regarded it all as bluster and hype over a famous player saying unpopular things. Now I will always consider any quote or comment that is attributed to you much more carefully.
Finally - and most importantly to me - this thread has reignited my personal desire to PRACTICE a LOT MORE than I have been (which has been not at all in recent months...). NOTHING takes the place of good, honest, hard practice!
Now where's my metronome?....
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,736
- 8,941
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
I'm done after this because I've finally realized what so many others have (some of whom will be quoted below) that there is no satisfactory answer to "well, they disagree with me, therefore they don't have (pick one) a good understanding, experience, confidence etc. Personally, I think the list speaks for itself.
Stu Hamm - Jeff Berlin and I once got into a huge discussion regarding the use of a metronome, and even though I disagree with his perspective, I respect him immensely as an instructor and a player…. I do like to practice with a metronome …
John Patitucci – With regard to "time": you can do more things to work on time. But there’s a bunch of different levels of it: One is that you’ve got to have internal time...so you’ve got to put in time with a metronome. In jazz, there are certainly elements of this, where you’re sometimes pushing and playing with a little edge, or laying back. But the deal is that you should have control over it. It shouldn’t be the instrument pushing you, with you having no causation about it (you just HAVE to rush, or HAVE to drag). Based on your emotions and what’s right for the music, it’ll dictate where to put it, and then you’ve got to have the muscle control to actually do it. So you have to practice playing with other musicians, and you have to practice playing with a metronome...being good with the click.
Bruce Gertz – pages 77 though 79 of his book are discussions of using the metronome to develop a steady time feel
Michael Manring - [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Discusses the use of loopers and metronome/click tracks to develop a solid rhythmic approach to solo playing
Rich Appelman – from his book, “Practice these exercises slowly, and be sure to use a metronome. This will improve your timing…”
Chuck Sher - from his book, “USE THE METRONOME REGULARLY. Your ability to keep good time is crucial and using the metronome will help strengthen this skill…”
Gary Burton - Jazz vibraphonist and longtime Berklee educator Gary Burton suggests practicing with a metronome in order to develop a steady sense of pulse.” It was very helpful to my subconscious mind, which is where our sense of time and pulse is located, to hear the results back on tape. Can you imagine judging your physical appearance without a mirror? You'll learn about things other than time from this kind of reflection and analysis, but time and consistency in rhythmic execution is probably the most major skill to be mastered through practice and observation."
Max Dimoff - http://contrabassconversations.com/2009/02/21/cbc-109-max-dimoff-interview/ Check out his practice packet, while he never specifically talks about metronome usage, it’s clear from the notes (practice 2x at 8thnote=mm, 3x at different mm etc.) that this is to be practiced in time with a nome
Lynn Seaton - There are many fun games one can play with the metronome including the one you suggest with the click on 4. Dave Douglas gave a clinic where he demonstrated playing with the click on various beats including the second 1/8 note of the beat! I agree that the metronome becomes more of a “time check” than keeper when one gets used to playing with it. The analogy that I use is this: A metronome is like the lines on the side of the road. When we first learned to drive, it took a lot of concentration to keep the car between the lines. As we became more experienced drivers, the lines help with a reminder to keep things on track. The metronome clicks serve the same purpose.
Jon Burr – from his book, “5. Add metronome – learn to stay with it and maintain awareness of it while feeling it in the music”.
Uwe Kropinski – from his book , Invalid Link Removed
Pat Metheny – “Besides jamming and playing in a band context, did you sit alone and practice guitar much?”
Oh yeah. About eight hours a day. I was a complete fanatic; I used to cut out of study hall and gym and go in the bathroom and practice during high school. I played tunes, which are that what I still practise on. I'd take something like (trumpeter Miles Davis') 'Solar' and play it all different tempos with a metronome beating on 2 and 4.
Dave Liebman - It goes without saying that at some stage of development, (the earlier the better), everyone must practice scales, arpeggios, lines, patterns and so on with the metronome executing the material accurately in time. …After doing that reasonably well at tempos ranging from slow to very fast, I urge the student to use the metronome more creatively in different parts of the bar, for example only the fourth beat, or only the upbeat of three, or the upbeat of one, etc. The idea is that a musician can get very loose and confident in relations to feeling all four beats without being tied down to one, two, three, four. … In any case every musician should get friendly with the metronome.
Sonny Fortune – from an interview with Marion Meadows – “Although Sonny was mostly known as an alto saxophonist, I had never heard a player reach like that on soprano since Coltrane. Sonny would always tell me to be cognizant of time and meter. He would practice to the metronome constantly.”
John McLaughlin - Do you work with a tape recorder?
Sometimes. I also work with a special metronome that a friend of mine named Leo Hoarty built for me. PS, this isn't from an advertisement
Mark Turner – from an online forum discussing HOW TO IMPROVE YOUR TIME –
“
If we're just talking metronome tricks, here's a few I got from Mark Turner when I was in Banff.
Metronome on dotted half note (ie: 1, 4, 3, 2, 1 etc...)
Metronome on quarter note triplet... then make that the quarter note and alternate between the two in the phrase group of your choice (4 bars, 8 bars, whatever)
Metronome on quarter note triplet starting on the "and" of 1... same as the other.
In 5/4, put metronome on "1" and the "and" of 3.
In 7/4, put the metronome on "1" and the "and of 4.
But again, if you have decided in advance that only one thing is true, it doesn't matter that anyone else has had another set of experiences. They're just wrong...
Stu Hamm - Jeff Berlin and I once got into a huge discussion regarding the use of a metronome, and even though I disagree with his perspective, I respect him immensely as an instructor and a player…. I do like to practice with a metronome …
John Patitucci – With regard to "time": you can do more things to work on time. But there’s a bunch of different levels of it: One is that you’ve got to have internal time...so you’ve got to put in time with a metronome. In jazz, there are certainly elements of this, where you’re sometimes pushing and playing with a little edge, or laying back. But the deal is that you should have control over it. It shouldn’t be the instrument pushing you, with you having no causation about it (you just HAVE to rush, or HAVE to drag). Based on your emotions and what’s right for the music, it’ll dictate where to put it, and then you’ve got to have the muscle control to actually do it. So you have to practice playing with other musicians, and you have to practice playing with a metronome...being good with the click.
Bruce Gertz – pages 77 though 79 of his book are discussions of using the metronome to develop a steady time feel
Michael Manring - [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Discusses the use of loopers and metronome/click tracks to develop a solid rhythmic approach to solo playing
Rich Appelman – from his book, “Practice these exercises slowly, and be sure to use a metronome. This will improve your timing…”
Chuck Sher - from his book, “USE THE METRONOME REGULARLY. Your ability to keep good time is crucial and using the metronome will help strengthen this skill…”
Gary Burton - Jazz vibraphonist and longtime Berklee educator Gary Burton suggests practicing with a metronome in order to develop a steady sense of pulse.” It was very helpful to my subconscious mind, which is where our sense of time and pulse is located, to hear the results back on tape. Can you imagine judging your physical appearance without a mirror? You'll learn about things other than time from this kind of reflection and analysis, but time and consistency in rhythmic execution is probably the most major skill to be mastered through practice and observation."
Max Dimoff - http://contrabassconversations.com/2009/02/21/cbc-109-max-dimoff-interview/ Check out his practice packet, while he never specifically talks about metronome usage, it’s clear from the notes (practice 2x at 8thnote=mm, 3x at different mm etc.) that this is to be practiced in time with a nome
Lynn Seaton - There are many fun games one can play with the metronome including the one you suggest with the click on 4. Dave Douglas gave a clinic where he demonstrated playing with the click on various beats including the second 1/8 note of the beat! I agree that the metronome becomes more of a “time check” than keeper when one gets used to playing with it. The analogy that I use is this: A metronome is like the lines on the side of the road. When we first learned to drive, it took a lot of concentration to keep the car between the lines. As we became more experienced drivers, the lines help with a reminder to keep things on track. The metronome clicks serve the same purpose.
Jon Burr – from his book, “5. Add metronome – learn to stay with it and maintain awareness of it while feeling it in the music”.
Uwe Kropinski – from his book , Invalid Link Removed
Pat Metheny – “Besides jamming and playing in a band context, did you sit alone and practice guitar much?”
Oh yeah. About eight hours a day. I was a complete fanatic; I used to cut out of study hall and gym and go in the bathroom and practice during high school. I played tunes, which are that what I still practise on. I'd take something like (trumpeter Miles Davis') 'Solar' and play it all different tempos with a metronome beating on 2 and 4.
Dave Liebman - It goes without saying that at some stage of development, (the earlier the better), everyone must practice scales, arpeggios, lines, patterns and so on with the metronome executing the material accurately in time. …After doing that reasonably well at tempos ranging from slow to very fast, I urge the student to use the metronome more creatively in different parts of the bar, for example only the fourth beat, or only the upbeat of three, or the upbeat of one, etc. The idea is that a musician can get very loose and confident in relations to feeling all four beats without being tied down to one, two, three, four. … In any case every musician should get friendly with the metronome.
Sonny Fortune – from an interview with Marion Meadows – “Although Sonny was mostly known as an alto saxophonist, I had never heard a player reach like that on soprano since Coltrane. Sonny would always tell me to be cognizant of time and meter. He would practice to the metronome constantly.”
John McLaughlin - Do you work with a tape recorder?
Sometimes. I also work with a special metronome that a friend of mine named Leo Hoarty built for me. PS, this isn't from an advertisement
Mark Turner – from an online forum discussing HOW TO IMPROVE YOUR TIME –
“
If we're just talking metronome tricks, here's a few I got from Mark Turner when I was in Banff.
Metronome on dotted half note (ie: 1, 4, 3, 2, 1 etc...)
Metronome on quarter note triplet... then make that the quarter note and alternate between the two in the phrase group of your choice (4 bars, 8 bars, whatever)
Metronome on quarter note triplet starting on the "and" of 1... same as the other.
In 5/4, put metronome on "1" and the "and" of 3.
In 7/4, put the metronome on "1" and the "and of 4.
But again, if you have decided in advance that only one thing is true, it doesn't matter that anyone else has had another set of experiences. They're just wrong...
Sort of! My first comment is something that other guys here have heard me mention before; art is different than academica. In the learning experience, you are SUPPOSED to slow down. It isn't a performance you are undertaking, it is an improvement in playing skills. Learning music is supposed to be a time to regard new information and learn it. This means that slowing down is mandatory. I think that you might be sabotauging your progress because you aren't happy with the slowing-down portion of playing, and would prefer to perform. But, you can't play what you don't know and in order to "know it" you have to learn it slowly, out of time sometimes, counting, subdividing, litle by little. If you could get up the patience to do this, you could double your playing ability and you knowledge of music inside of two months.
John Goldsby
Supporting Member
- Mar 4, 2003
- 1,172
- 2,160
- Disclosures
- Bassist @ WDR Big Band Cologne, Discover Double Bass, Conservatorium Maastricht, NL
Hi Jeff, I'm really digging your discussion here, and I think it is great that you are taking the time to share your wisdom and experience with all of us. You are right -- TalkBass is a fantastic forum with a lot of passionate, inquisitive bass players hanging around.
Someone tipped me off that I was "mentioned" here, so I thought I would comment on the Invalid Link Removed where I talk about practicing the bass. Regarding practicing with or without gadgets, I wrote this in that particular article:
"Practice things slowly or even out-of-time to make sure that you nail the notes and fingerings. I think that a metronome is a useful tool when practicing; just like "play-along" CDs, "Band-In-A-Box," and drum machines. Always remember that you are practicing so your bass lines and solos groove on their own. A good bass player (that would be you) can groove alone or with a drummer, with a click-track or with stuff falling down stairs. It is up to you to make it feel good."
Later in my list of 60 things to practice, I write:
". . . play with a metronome on 2 & 4. Also practice without the metronome."
I think it is obvious from what I say there, that while I would approve the use of a metronome in certain practice situations, it is more important to take a musically effective approach to learning. I agree with you that slow, even out-of-time practice is the most effective way to start. Although I will not agree to use my metronome as a paperweight
Keep writing -- I'm glad you are hanging out on this forum!
Someone tipped me off that I was "mentioned" here, so I thought I would comment on the Invalid Link Removed where I talk about practicing the bass. Regarding practicing with or without gadgets, I wrote this in that particular article:
"Practice things slowly or even out-of-time to make sure that you nail the notes and fingerings. I think that a metronome is a useful tool when practicing; just like "play-along" CDs, "Band-In-A-Box," and drum machines. Always remember that you are practicing so your bass lines and solos groove on their own. A good bass player (that would be you) can groove alone or with a drummer, with a click-track or with stuff falling down stairs. It is up to you to make it feel good."
Later in my list of 60 things to practice, I write:
". . . play with a metronome on 2 & 4. Also practice without the metronome."
I think it is obvious from what I say there, that while I would approve the use of a metronome in certain practice situations, it is more important to take a musically effective approach to learning. I agree with you that slow, even out-of-time practice is the most effective way to start. Although I will not agree to use my metronome as a paperweight
Keep writing -- I'm glad you are hanging out on this forum!
I hear what you are saying as far as studying Bill's phrasing versus Pat's. I've got a bunch of Bill Evans CDs here, so I'll find something to work on.
Thanks for your advice!
Since you are listening to Bill Evans, what about Scott Lafaro's phrasing? Does it get any better?
I shudder to think that Scott Lafaro would have done if he hadn't been taken so young.
I'm done after this because I've finally realized what so many others have (some of whom will be quoted below) that there is no satisfactory answer to "well, they disagree with me, therefore they don't have (pick one) a good understanding, experience, confidence etc. Personally, I think the list speaks for itself.[/QUOTE]
Jeff said: You did a great job in organizing your stuff. I know that some guys believe in using clicks, These strike me as performance moments, jamming with clicks and the like. Some do endorse using clicks but as ear training devices. Also, to be fair, some believe that they get good time with a metronome. Earlier in the day, I posted this which included your list and a few more names. I hope that it makes sense. Again, thanks for your input Ed.
Below is my post.
On Tuesday, I asked people to write up the names of all the bass players that they knew of who endorse the idea that practicing with a metronome helps you develop good time. After two days, Alan Vorse was the only guy to contribute a list. Here it is. Well done Alan.
Andy Laverne: http://www.bassplayer.com/story.aspx...erms=metronome
Jeff Andrews: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Kai Eckhardt: Invalid Link Removed
John Goldsby: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Beaver Felton: Link Removed
Dave LaRue: Invalid Link Removed (Thanks Jimmy).
Adam Nitti: http://www.adamnitti.com/patterns_two.shtml
Stu Hamm: http://www.stuarthamm.net/
Billy Sheehan: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (Exercise 4)
Dave Liebman: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Steve Gadd: http://www.performing-musician.com/p...s/techthat.htm
Mike Stern: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (last video).
John Scofield:
Dave Hungate
Tony Grey
Mark Egan
Lynn Seaton
Michael Moore
Dave Douglas
Dave LaRue
John Pattitucci
Jimmy Raney
Robert Fripp (seen backstage practicing with a metronome)
Ralph Towner
John McLaughlin
I appreciate Alan’s contribution. Thanks Buddy. You did your homework. I reviewed some links quickly and discovered that some guys used metronomes as bandmembers in their clinics, not as learning tools, which is what I asked for originally (“List all the players who state that a metronome contributed to their sense of time”
. I’ve used metronomes myself in clinics as a drummer, or my foot, or a drum machine or a real drummer.But, I will never state that my sense of time came from a click because it didn’t. This is what I was looking for.To continue, Billy Sheehan, in fact, dismisses the idea that a metronome contributed anything toward his good time sense (we toured together for 2 months and talked about this). The John McLaughlin and John Scofield filmclips are ads. They were hired to do Korg videos to promote their metronome and had to invent simple exercies for the film date that they were paid to perform in.I know them both and they never believed that a metronome was a part of their developed sense of time. David Hungate apparently once commented, “the best way to develop good time is to play with people with good time, but since they won't let you the next best thing is to play with the records they are on." If this is true, then you have found Hungate’s preferred choice to acquire good time and a metronome isn’t a part of it.
Yet some on this list do believe that a metronome was instrumental in helping them acquire their sense of time. I lament this, because the implication is that if there were no metronome in the world to help the metronome supporters acquire their sense of time, then they must have believed that they weren’t good enough musicians to learn how to play in time without it. That is a sad thing to believe about yourself.
On this thread alone, there have been over 9,000 viewings of what we’ve been writing back and forth to each other. Yet, only one guy offered a list of around 30 names. Even if I artificially multiply this list by 10, you will still only come up with 300 names of teacher/players nationwide who support the notion that a metronome is a tool that helps to provide good time to those who use it. I am not impressed with the turn-out. This was the metronome supporters' opportunity to show enough circumstantial proof that lots of great players share their belief in the validity of practicing with a click. But, out of over 9,000 viewers, only one guy stepped up to the plate and this is EXACTLY what I thought was going to happen. A couple of guys offered a couple of names as well. This is why I opened up the possibility to list these guys. I knew that few could or even would try to offer some circumstantial evidence that metronomes are a firm part of many pro's developmental life their claim. Why? Because they can’t! There aren’t many metronome supporters in the pro ranks who believe in practicing with metronomes as much as some on Talkbass or other places do.
At this point, I am done with discussing metronomes. I have nothing else that I can offer. My well runneth dry! I tried via historical precedence, industry requirements, conservatory methodology, elements of practice that go back a long long time, and now, a little bit of general proof to show that if you wish to learn how to play in time, you have to go about it in a different way. Frankly, metronome supporters here have have lost any credibility because now it is just talk without substance. Only Alan Vorse came forward. Good man! In fact, I predict that there will be a discussion like you've never seen. People will dissect each word, examine and punch holes in almost every sentence that I've written. Please report back and let me know when this takes place, because it is absolutely coming.
Regarding clicks, you can jam with it, practice subdivisional ear training with it, but you will never in a million years acquire good time from practicing with it. Let’s move on to something else because the guys who want to improve already got the message.
P.S. In the last several days I asked everybody to list anything that is best learned in time. Nobody came up with one single thing. This is hardcore proof that absolutely everything that is learned is best learned out of time until you have learned it well. Everything, without exception is best learned this way! If one cannot mention anything anywhere that is best learned in time, then logic suggests that music must be included in this universal principal as well.
Hi Jeff, I'm really digging your discussion here, and I think it is great that you are taking the time to share your wisdom and experience with all of us. You are right -- TalkBass is a fantastic forum with a lot of passionate, inquisitive bass players hanging around.
Someone tipped me off that I was "mentioned" here, so I thought I would comment on the Invalid Link Removed where I talk about practicing the bass. Regarding practicing with or without gadgets, I wrote this in that particular article:
"Practice things slowly or even out-of-time to make sure that you nail the notes and fingerings. I think that a metronome is a useful tool when practicing; just like "play-along" CDs, "Band-In-A-Box," and drum machines. Always remember that you are practicing so your bass lines and solos groove on their own. A good bass player (that would be you) can groove alone or with a drummer, with a click-track or with stuff falling down stairs. It is up to you to make it feel good."
Later in my list of 60 things to practice, I write:
". . . play with a metronome on 2 & 4. Also practice without the metronome."
I think it is obvious from what I say there, that while I would approve the use of a metronome in certain practice situations, it is more important to take a musically effective approach to learning. I agree with you that slow, even out-of-time practice is the most effective way to start. Although I will not agree to use my metronome as a paperweight
Keep writing -- I'm glad you are hanging out on this forum!
Cool. Thank you for your input. If music is the center of what one is studying, then all things are fixable and upgradable. I appreciate your comments.
Absolutely.
That's one thing that's kept me a paying member of Talkbass - and this thread is like super rich icing on the already rich cake.
There are players of all stripes, levels, ilks and creeds here - and most are open to deep exploration of our shared love that starts with playing bass, but ends with music.
I've said it before - but I think is worth saying again - time and level of detail you've put into this thread is nothing short of fantastic. Regardless of anyone's stance on metronomes or other points of contention, your thoughtful participation here is very much appreciated!
Before this thread I'd only considered the 'controversial' things you've said in passing and regarded it all as bluster and hype over a famous player saying unpopular things. Now I will always consider any quote or comment that is attributed to you much more carefully.
Finally - and most importantly to me - this thread has reignited my personal desire to PRACTICE a LOT MORE than I have been (which has been not at all in recent months...). NOTHING takes the place of good, honest, hard practice!
Now where's my metronome?....
Why I oughtta.................................
Dave Liebman got from Lenny Tristano to jam with a click putting the click on 2 and 4, on 4 and on upbeats as an ear training principle. If he and other guys like this method, then I won't criticize it. But realize that Lenny Tristano's and Charlie Banacos' and Dave Liebman's students could play. If they couldn't, then they never could study with these guys because these guy require a good level of musical excellence to learn their sophisticated music lessons. Therefore, if these students can already play, then these teachers consider them qualified to move the click to different places and play along with them, not as a time-developing principle, but as an ear training one. Make sense?
If you can play, try this methods. If you can't then learn music first.
Good night Friends. Tomorrow is my last day with you all. I'll be in Italy with Dennis Chambers hanging with Italian musicians for 10 days. Ciao Bello.
If you can play, try this methods. If you can't then learn music first.
Good night Friends. Tomorrow is my last day with you all. I'll be in Italy with Dennis Chambers hanging with Italian musicians for 10 days. Ciao Bello.
Hey Jeff, completely unrelated to music discussion, but I've just got to say I love this YouTube clip! Very cool.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,736
- 8,941
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Man, you make this SO hard.
Lennie used this method with ALL of his students, not just Warne and Lee and Ted. Am I just speculating about what he might have done? No. Because this is how Lennie Tristano taught MY teacher and this is how HE is teaching me and all of his other students, some of whom are nothing but raw beginners. Specifically AS a time-developing principal.
Not speculation, not "Well, it must be like this". First hand experience.
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