Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

[engedi1]

No offense guys..

But how many different ways do you think you can skin a cat?...


Also it seems the less i "think" about music as regards to theory notes, scales, whatever and just play the latter almost always has a better result..

Honestly my approach is just to pick up my bass and play, listen use my ear,

I kinda agree with how victor wooten teaches...

It just seems like you guys are making music way more complicated than it needs to be...

Just my opinion...

Does anyone know what im trying to say here?

While I completely agree that this is how you should PERFORM, you can't practice this way if you want to IMPROVE. When you are performing, you certainly don't have time to think " I need to insert a Dominant 7th here"
However, I believe that the stuff that comes out of you "intuitively" reflects the knowledge you have acquired. How could it be any other way? If you study music as Jeff and others are teaching, you will certainly be more interesting to listen to when you play spontaneously. (Not saying you aren't interesting now, just a general principle) I am sure that Victor has at one point in his life, studied much Jazz harmony. I can hear it in his solo's-he knows what he is a doing, and his stuff is too accurate and cool sounding to not be based in knowledge.
Take Flea for another example. There is a guy who can sit down and whip out the coolest licks and solos off the top of his head. However, he studied Trumpet quite seriously for years. He knows the musically language internally, and that makes it to your fingers. The only music theory that counts, is the stuff that your fingers and ears know without having to think too much.
Jeff posted on this a few threads back. Learning the language of music better, will allow you to speak it better when it is your turn to jam.

 

[gai113]

^^^ thanks ..

so by learning the language you mean theory and stuff?

 

[engedi1]

Sure, and knowing where all the notes are on the bass, and how to read music, and know what notes you are playing. To be honest, I don't think about theory when I play, but I studied it for years in college, and I know that this was a huge advantage. It is no different than if you wanted to sound smarter with your speech, you had better read great lit, and study vocabulary. Now, you aren't going to brag to your friends that you know what a danglin participle is (does anybody?) but you will start to speak more fluidly over time.
Music is not much different.

 

[Billnc]

Thing is Victor Wooten KNOWS all his theory! He can read well. I think sometimes he does a disservice by not explaining how hard he worked his whole life at the mechanics and theory involved. He did his work!

 

[slybass3000]

Thing is Victor Wooten KNOWS all his theory! He can read well. I think sometimes he does a disservice by not explaining how hard he worked his whole life at the mechanics and theory involved. He did his work!

And he practice and recommend working with a metronome too!

Sly

 

[thepontif]

I think if you guys listen more carefully to what Victor is about, you'll realize that a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE part of his message is the importance of learning how to get out of your own way. He's not about having all the content harmonically or whatever. He may know all of his theory, but he'll be the first to tell you that it's not an integral part of his identity. He's about making honest music out of what he can do...which is a lot. It's not the whole picture...but it's a critically important part of it.

I know for a fact that there are a large number of players out there with lots of "knowledge" and not the first clue what to do with it. IMO, ideally you have both deep content and lots of ability to use it musically. But all the content in the world without an unobstructed avenue to the ears of the listener is as good a fantasy and that's about all.

 

[thepontif]

By the way Jeff, I've always thought you were absolutely brilliant. Even if you did criticize how loud Matt and Dominique and Darryl Jones and I played in Italy

I think everyone who can't play like you should understand that it's not because you're some kind of freak. That's the cop out SO many young players use..."I can't do that. That guy's just a freak". Fact is, you know something they don't...and they can learn it just like you did if they want to.

 

[KwinS]

SORRY! Way OT here, but Mike, I saw you play at the big shindig at UNT last year, and you are amazing, too. I wish you had more tunes there!

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

...I'm an ages old Tom Johnson student...for reference...

 

[thepontif]

Cool. That was fun. Pretty weird to be back there playing. Wish I could have played more too.

Back to Mr. Berlin now.....

 

[KwinS]

Absolutely. Once, again...sorry for the Off-Topic...

 

[phippsyg]

I have a great deal of respect for Jeff and his teachings, and for the most part agree with his approach.

However...

if, within the realm of education, you are saying "this" is the best way of doing something, then it implies a blanket approach to all students. I don't disagree that there may be a better or worse ways of presenting concepts at times, but, like the education of anything, learning happens best when catered towards the individual.

In my humble opinion, this isn't always taken into consideration by those who feel they have the best way of doing something, be it playing bass or hitting a golf ball. Sometimes an individual may gain skills faster when as educators we let go of our own ego and think about what the student really needs. It may be showing them our "best" way, but at times it may require flexibility in approach. Otherwise we become dogmatic and fail to grow as musicians, educators and students.

My humble 2 cents.

 

[thepontif]

Well there are some absolutes in all of this. "How you learn" is not the same as "what you need to know". But I think the bottom line is not to put the process before the result. Everything we do musically will sound more musical if the music is the impetus that drives what we do. If a little kid is learning to play an instrument, a good teacher shouldn't immediately start harping on their technique (for example) unless there is a skill they don't demonstrate that they need in order to get a musical result that they aren't currently able to get. HOW the kid learns is a potential obstacle for the teacher to overcome if they want to be a good teacher. But regardless of how the kid learns, they ultimately NEED to learn the SKILL to get the result. You can negotiate the process of learning, but you can't really negotiate the result.

Generally speaking, if you know what result you want, and can get out of your own way, you'll be able to find a way to do it.

And for the record, I think a metronome is a good tool for certain applications and wouldn't suggest people not use one, but I absolutely don't believe it's the key to developing good time. Time isn't necessarily metronomic anyway. It's a concensus. And when everything is really right, it's pretty close to metronomic too.

 

[edfriedland]

Clifford Brown was one of the swinging-est trumpeters that ever lived. And he may or may not have used a metronome, I can't say either way, but he was not a bass player. Swinging on trumpet is very different than providing a huge part of the bass function in music - you know, keeping good time and making it groove. As a soloist, you ride the groove like a surfer, but the rhythm section is the wave.

Anyway, Jeff often asks for citations of people that can play that actually use a metronome and I recently bought Michael Moore's upright bass method - and he highly recommends playing with a metronome.

Jeff and I have hashed this out many times. So I'm going to refrain from drawing the whole shebang out again. But I just thought I'd mention Michael Moore's book, Moore is a bass player that can not only swing like a mofo, he keeps time like a Swiss watch. I agree with him on that point.

 

[fdeck]

Clifford Brown was one of the swinging-est trumpeters that ever lived. And he may or may not have used a metronome, I can't say either way, but he was not a bass player. Swinging on trumpet is very different than providing a huge part of the bass function in music - you know, keeping good time and making it groove. As a soloist, you ride the groove like a surfer, but the rhythm section is the wave.

Anyway, Jeff often asks for citations of people that can play that actually use a metronome and I recently bought Michael Moore's upright bass method - and he highly recommends playing with a metronome.

Jeff and I have hashed this out many times. So I'm going to refrain from drawing the whole shebang out again. But I just thought I'd mention Michael Moore's book, Moore is a bass player that can not only swing like a mofo, he keeps time like a Swiss watch. I agree with him on that point.

Where did you get Moore's book? I am looking for his thumb position book, and have not found a supplier.

 

[thepontif]

What's wrong with a metronome? As long as you don't convince yourself that it's the key to good time. It's not the key to BAD time either. You don't play music with a metronome. You play it with other musicians. So ultimately, you need to play with good time without a metronome. A metronome can reveal things to you about your playing, though. And that's useful, IMO. You don't learn to improvise by practicing scales. You get good at playing scales by practicing scales. You learn to play with a metronome by practicing with a metronome. You learn to play with a drummer by playing with a drummer. I don't think it's fair to say that Michael Moore keeps time like a swiss watch because of a metronome. But it may be that when practicing his methods, it's useful to use a metronome to keep yourself in check. He has great time, with or without a metronome.

Metronomes just don't help your time by themselves. You still have to play in time. Haven't you ever heard drummers who aren't good at playing with a click try to play with a click. A lot of times, the minute the "metronome" comes on, the time goes out the window.

 

[Roy Vogt]

What's wrong with a metronome? As long as you don't convince yourself that it's the key to good time. It's not the key to BAD time either. You don't play music with a metronome. You play it with other musicians. So ultimately, you need to play with good time without a metronome. A metronome can reveal things to you about your playing, though. And that's useful, IMO. You don't learn to improvise by practicing scales. You get good at playing scales by practicing scales. You learn to play with a metronome by practicing with a metronome. You learn to play with a drummer by playing with a drummer. I don't think it's fair to say that Michael Moore keeps time like a swiss watch because of a metronome. But it may be that when practicing his methods, it's useful to use a metronome to keep yourself in check. He has great time, with or without a metronome.

Metronomes just don't help your time by themselves. You still have to play in time. Haven't you ever heard drummers who aren't good at playing with a click try to play with a click. A lot of times, the minute the "metronome" comes on, the time goes out the window.

I can remember a LOT of practicing Swing Lines (as in all of the Evolving Bassist and Ray Brown Bass Methods) with the metronome on 2 and 4 and a lot of practicing with the metronome on upbeats while practicing Carol Kaye lines while I was at NTSU in the 70s. The interesting thing I discovered yesterday was that when I took time OUT of the equation I was able to only think about the notes and how to organize them. Since I can play decent time with no external source, it was pretty easy to keep all the ratios together with my internal clock.
That internal clock is really important, IMO. You don't want to be only as good as the drummer you're playing with or you will be totally sunk when you play with a bad one and still have to make the band groove (no one's favorite job, but we've all had it).
BTW, I concur with the Papal opinion about Vic's background, ability,and goals as a player. He's pretty deep....

 

[slybass3000]

I can remember a LOT of practicing Swing Lines (as in all of the Evolving Bassist and Ray Brown Bass Methods) with the metronome on 2 and 4 and a lot of practicing with the metronome on upbeats while practicing Carol Kaye lines while I was at NTSU in the 70s. The interesting thing I discovered yesterday was that when I took time OUT of the equation I was able to only think about the notes and how to organize them. Since I can play decent time with no external source, it was pretty easy to keep all the ratios together with my internal clock.
That internal clock is really important, IMO. You don't want to be only as good as the drummer you're playing with or you will be totally sunk when you play with a bad one and still have to make the band groove (no one's favorite job, but we've all had it).
BTW, I concur with the Papal opinion about Vic's background, ability,and goals as a player. He's pretty deep....

Since you've been playing and practicing since the 70's with a click don't you think you worked on improving your inner clock with that? I do think so....

When you practice something with a click you know how a rhythm should sound AND feel. My ability to play in time with a click make me aware of that. When I play with a drummer then I know if he is rushing or dragging AND I can react to this by correcting the pulse by pushing it or lay back on the groove. It comes from practicing with a click and make me aware of how it feels at that very precise speed. This is how you improve your internal clock IMO.

Sly

 

[AltGrendel]

You know, I'm really tired of this metronome discussion.

It's a tool. You can use it, or not, as you see fit. If it helps you, great.

It's not a topic anyone is going to win on.

I don't use one because it frustrates me when I'm trying to learn a piece. That doesn't mean I'm going to insist that you not use yours if it helps you.

I'm hoping we can move on to other, more interesting (to me), aspects of learning music.

Thank you for listening.

 

[thepontif]

Well you're welcome!

 

[Eric Perry]

You know, I'm really tired of this metronome discussion...

+1. I'm quite sure Jeff is too.