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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed
- Thread starter JeffBerlin
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This might be a strange question, but when you're transcribing, say, Keith Jarret do you do so on a keyboard? On your bass? I've been wanting to transcribe some music that isn't just basslines all the time, but I'm not really proficient enough at guitar or keyboards to catch stuff before it flies past.
But, you have to read what whocaresnotme said. H didn't choose playing a 7 stringed bass for musical reasons. He chose it because he "needed a challenge". He acquired more strings believing that he would have to work harder at playing, and therefore grow in music.
This will not happen! Nor will anybody else improve because they have chosen a 5 or 6 stringed bass with two octaves. Now you have to take the work that you would have done on the four strings and do in on on or two more strings plus more octaves. You've just increased greatly your musical responsibility to play this instrument, but you haven't added a single note of music or academic lessons to justify the reason. Choose whatever you want, but multiple stringed basses do not make for an improved player.
I've always sat at a table and wrote out what I heard without a piano or bass. My ear is pretty developed and it is not hard to do for me.
In your case, make sure that you use an instrument if you need one. Or just use a pitch pipe for reference. But the most important thing is to make sure that you transcribe something that you can deal with.
Actually, I think that Jeff's point is that unless you do everything he says, play the type of instrument he plays, practice the way he says to practice, you're not a a "real" bass player. If you're not playing professionally, you're not a real "musician".
I'm sorry but I find Jeff's level of arrogance and condescention to be offensive. Especially since I love his playing so much and have been a fan since the 80s.
No doubt, Jeff has a lot to offer his students. However, I think that his bad attitude towards many subjects outweighs his good advice. There are many excellent music teachers out there that are willing to teach students without berating them for playing 6 string basses, fretless basses, slapping, tapping, or whatever. The idea that these things would somehow preclude a person from being a professional (which seems to be insinuated) is ridiculous and unsubstantiated.
There, I said it.
- Dave
Thank you for your honesty! Show me anywhere where I ever said that if you don't practice the way that I say, or if you are not a professional musician, then you are not a real musician.
What I said is that since so many players talk about musical improvement, then if you learn the way that I say, you will get what you want. If you jam, fool around, and acknowledge teachers and learning situations that are limited and false, then you won't improve.
Further, playing playing 6 string basses, fretless basses, slapping, tapping, are choices that players make to play on. Just be aware of the side elements that go along with playing these instruments. I've noticed that the word "Music" is never included in discussions about multiple stringed, or fretless or tapping or slapping. Why does this concern you that I bring it up?
This is not a complicated message. Don't make it so!
I have to disagree with this statement. I lived in Japan for a couple of years, and during that time my 6 year old son took viola lessons for a fairly famous violin/viola teacher. I remember seeing many of his students that, technically, were flawless. But, they all sounded as sterile as a sheet. They could play notes, fast, in time and in tune, but there was no feeling there. It was like listening to a MIDI keyboard. They all knew the "language" of music, but it didn't mean they could communicate musical ideas.
Just like there are many people who have great command of the English language, but that doesn't make them great writers. It's the feelings and the thoughts under all that knowledge that makes one an author.
These were students learning how to play. These weren't recitals. I used to play those classical recitals on violin. I witnessed the extent of emotion from other young people trying to play correctly. It always took presedence over feeling because most youg students are trying to learn, not trying to express themselves. Emotions come to all players as they play better and better. They aren't supposed to be emoting while they play the homework that they've been practicing. You are confusing are with academics and you are putting the cart before the horse.
There some guys who come here to argue. You may not get your wish!
Friends, I asked that we stick to music, but the topic veers off target and I (admittedly) sometimes go with it.
I identified a couple of guys as just talkers. They tell you , but they never ask you anything. When I see their names over their posts, I ignore what they say completely. I don't read them, and I never will. I just scroll down to the next post.
My old advice still stands; IGNORE ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY THAT ARGUES! We can have the best thread on Talkbass, but I can't do it alone. I need your help to weed out the B.S.ers. No matter how these people try to get under your skin, IGNORE THEM TOTALLY! Let's just talk music and have a ball without arguements! If you disagree with me, then cool! Let me know and we can chat about it. But, like the Fonz, Be Cool! Cool?
Well, we'll agree to disagree. These were recitals, I was there. There were a few (and his students ranged in ages from 4 to 30 something) that really had some feeling to what they were playing, but a majority of them were just playing the notes. The only point I'm trying to make is that is possible to go overboard too much on the academics of anything, music included. Teaching the student to be able to use the academics to convey thought and emotion is, for me, the difference between a good teacher and a great one.
Of course, you can go too far the other way, and have no academics, and then you have bands like Poison.
If you guys know anything about me, it is that I never implyl I state openly. And I state right now that too many people make me the author of things that I never said. Show me anywhere where I said that if you tap, you are less of a musician than somebody who doesn't.
What I said is that ther are practically no gigs for tappers, and that you aren't fullfilling the bass role that practically everybody in music requires from a bass player. Ultimately, it will be you who loses out on gigs and bass improvement if you pursue a method of playing that has so few success stories connected with this style that one can actually name them.
This is information for you to regard. Whatever you choose affects your musical lives, so think carefully and good luck.
Well, we'll agree to disagree. These were recitals, I was there. There were a few (and his students ranged in ages from 4 to 30 something) that really had some feeling to what they were playing, but a majority of them were just playing the notes. The only point I'm trying to make is that is possible to go overboard too much on the academics of anything, music included. Teaching the student to be able to use the academics to convey thought and emotion is, for me, the difference between a good teacher and a great one.
Of course, you can go too far the other way, and have no academics, and then you have bands like Poison.
Well, we'll agree to disagree. These were recitals, I was there. There were a few (and his students ranged in ages from 4 to 30 something) that really had some feeling to what they were playing, but a majority of them were just playing the notes. The only point I'm trying to make is that is possible to go overboard too much on the academics of anything, music included. Teaching the student to be able to use the academics to convey thought and emotion is, for me, the difference between a good teacher and a great one.
Of course, you can go too far the other way, and have no academics, and then you have bands like Poison.
Sorry! I added a word that I didn't mean to add. They WERE recitals. I said that they weren't! Recitals are about performance of material correctly. It takes time to wake up the emotions in classical performance because it is so darn difficult to play classical repertoir. Rock music is pure emotion. Jazz is pretty hyped up as well. Classical music usually permits emotions to flow once the player joins that high group of great classical player. All symphony players can play with emotion, but their students probably can't.
- Oct 31, 2006
- 43
- 6
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Markbass Amps, ESP Basses, D'Addario Strings, EMG Pickups
If I might post my two cents here...
During my tenure playing with Herbie Mann (which Jeff and I did together for a hot minute), Herbie lost his record deal after being with Atlantic Records for a number of years. In response to that, he cut the band down to three pieces, flute, percussion, and bass. I remember playing that first show in Sanibel Island, Florida with the trio, which was Armen Halburian on percussion, Herbie on flute, and me on bass. I had seen Will Lee and Tony Levin do a little tapping, so I started doing it, playing simple root-fifth bass lines with the left hand, and thirds-and-sevenths chords with the right hand a little higher up on the neck. My point is, I started tapping because it was right for the ensemble, and most importantly, right for the music, not because I wanted to show off or attract attention. That style of playing perfectly fit the music Herbie was doing at the time. That, in my humble opinion, is the only real reason to play any way, be it finger style, tapping, slapping, or plucking the strings with your nose. For it to be valid, it has to fit the music being played, and become music in its own right. If one does it for any other reason, it is simply wrong.
Keep preaching the good word, Jeff. All the best.
Frank
During my tenure playing with Herbie Mann (which Jeff and I did together for a hot minute), Herbie lost his record deal after being with Atlantic Records for a number of years. In response to that, he cut the band down to three pieces, flute, percussion, and bass. I remember playing that first show in Sanibel Island, Florida with the trio, which was Armen Halburian on percussion, Herbie on flute, and me on bass. I had seen Will Lee and Tony Levin do a little tapping, so I started doing it, playing simple root-fifth bass lines with the left hand, and thirds-and-sevenths chords with the right hand a little higher up on the neck. My point is, I started tapping because it was right for the ensemble, and most importantly, right for the music, not because I wanted to show off or attract attention. That style of playing perfectly fit the music Herbie was doing at the time. That, in my humble opinion, is the only real reason to play any way, be it finger style, tapping, slapping, or plucking the strings with your nose. For it to be valid, it has to fit the music being played, and become music in its own right. If one does it for any other reason, it is simply wrong.
Keep preaching the good word, Jeff. All the best.
Frank
Point taken, although I do not see it as black and white as you do, but I see what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying that!
Too true. The technical challenges of learning to play an arco'd double bass solo are so great, that adding emotion into that mix is not likely, until your master degree recital. This is one of the things that frustrated me as a classical DB major, the technical hurdle is so high, that you have to really decide if you want to jump it.
I can't believe this thread has gone this direction again. Of course one learns groove, and feel, and timing from the experience of playing with others, and you can't study these things academically, and as Jeff says, you don't need to. Doesn't everyone know this already? Of course tapping, slap, and playing 10 string basses are fun, but that is not what this thread is about. This thread is about how to IMPROVE as a musician. I fail to understand why so many on this thread argue that studying music will somehow kill your groove. This is total non-sense and is just an excuse made by those who don't want to study. If you don't want to study then don't. But don't blame Jeff for pointing out the obvious. To me it is pretty clear that the greatest musicians of any genre are those who have great natural talent, have developed killer timing through years of experience, and have studied alot at some point.
Case in point, Christian McBride. The man studied DB at freaking Julliard, and at the same time was playing jazz clubs in NY every night. When he slept I don't know, but he can groove like a mofo, and can compose great music, and can blow an amazing solo over any changes you care to mention. When Sting needed a DB player for his "All this time Tour" Christian McBride got that call.
There are countless example of guys with stories like this. Even the Stones called on Darryl Jones to replace Bill Wyman.
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
Ok, back to learning.
My kids gave me Chord Studies for Electric Bass for Christmas. I am reviewing this material SLOWLY. I will be into absorbing the material and concepts in this book for a long time to come! I am also doing the chord exercises outlined by Jeff in the August 98 issue of BP SLOWLY, playing each exercise over the entire cycle. I don't move on to the next variation until I comfortably have the previous under my fingers. I am also taking Jeff's advice and playing over changes using chord tones only as an exercise - it is harder at first than it seems! I am also reviewing a book of Paul Chambers solos, as well as the Jamerson book and other material. I am combining lots of reading with ear training.
My goals are pretty simple. I want to expand as a musician, and these methods are certainly helping. I know that it will take a ton of time, but that's OK. I am enjoying the process along the way, and making slow but steady progress is fun.
My kids gave me Chord Studies for Electric Bass for Christmas. I am reviewing this material SLOWLY. I will be into absorbing the material and concepts in this book for a long time to come! I am also doing the chord exercises outlined by Jeff in the August 98 issue of BP SLOWLY, playing each exercise over the entire cycle. I don't move on to the next variation until I comfortably have the previous under my fingers. I am also taking Jeff's advice and playing over changes using chord tones only as an exercise - it is harder at first than it seems! I am also reviewing a book of Paul Chambers solos, as well as the Jamerson book and other material. I am combining lots of reading with ear training.
My goals are pretty simple. I want to expand as a musician, and these methods are certainly helping. I know that it will take a ton of time, but that's OK. I am enjoying the process along the way, and making slow but steady progress is fun.
This makes sense to me Frank. I am sure that you would add that a great majority of the work that you have done, including the studying that you have done, did not include two handed tapping. Your inclusion of this style fit those moments where it was musically a sound idea to include it.
Many bass players don't have Frank Gravis' experience or playing ability. His decisions were based in need, and absolutely included musicality in its execution. If you find the need to do anything, then do it well. But, make sure that you realize that just about the entire community of bass players world wide do not tap because there isn't any outlet, either musically or professionally for this style. Only the twenty or so guys who got famous for doing this have influenced the entire world of tappers the way that Jaco Pastorius influenced the entire world of fretless players.
Your musical choices are yours of course. It would just be a wize thing not to make an effort to go into a style of music blindly, not really knowing your future as a tapper or not knowing what the professional industry regards and uses it for (since so many are gig motivated rather than musically motivated.) You might want to know what you can expect to happen if you include it in your playing repertoir.
Well said! I know that some guys understand the meaning of what I say. It isn't a complicated situation. Music is learned black and white, and performed in pastels and rainbows. It has always been this way if it is done right. Good for you for knowing this! In classical music, the colors show up late because classical music is so hard to play. But, any kid can play his heart out in many contemporary popular styles because the styles aren't musically challenging to learn. So, there is a beeline straight to balls-out engery and feeling.
If you want a mind blowing way to use that book, take either one bar, or two bars at a time and play them in 12 keys. But only do this with the number 4 and 5's of each chord type. Don't do this with the 1, 2, or 3's of the strict approach note portions of the exercises. If you can't handle 1 or 2 full bars, then start with one or two groups of 16th note groupings.
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