Not to answer for him, but I've been reading this thread for a while, and I don't think Jeff thinks any of these techniques are wrong. He just does not think they are the things that bass players will be called on to do/will decide whether you get a gig or not. And I think he's right about that.
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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed
- Thread starter JeffBerlin
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+1 . Also, all those guys were also well studied musicians who know their stuff. Tapping is icing on the cake, but if you have no cake, than eating icing isn't that much fun. It is also worth mentioning, that most of the bassists he mentioned have created solo careers built around their chops. They occupy a very special niche in the music scene that most bassists will not. Again, and I say again, this thread is about how to IMPROVE as a musician. Tal Wilkenfeld is a great example. She is playing pro level stuff, because she studied MUSIC at a young age.
I too went through my tapping, slapping phase, as I guess most young players do. Playing Primus tunes sure impressed my friends in high school. But now I realize I need to grow as a MUSICIAN if I want to work.
Jeff is saying that the MUSIC should be the priority, fancy techniques can come later. If you spend 4 hours learning how to Tap like VW, and spend no time learning music, than you are shooting your career in the foot. If you don't care about a career, than fine, that is totally OK. But please understand the purpose of this thread.
Hard question to answer since the answer is specific to those chords in tunes that emply them. It is sort of like asking how one uses a brake when driving. The answer is that you use it when you have to.
Exactly. You got it! Plus naming 20 guys in the entire world's bass community who tap isn't exactly a landslide. Even if you round off the number to 100 names, it is such a limited field in the world's open market of music and performance that it practically isn't regarded. In fact, each name on the list is a solo artist. Practically no sideman taps because it isn't required in professional or amateur musical performance. It isn't a bad thing to tap. You just will never work or use this style outside of the band that you have built up around and allows your tapping preference to function, a rare thing indeed.
Commreman
Faith, Family, Fitness, and Frets
Music is what we do so it is what we learn. I personaly lost more work because i did not have the technique, not the musical knowledge. Even now if i was to go back to up-right (not since 75/76 have i played one) i could have even more work if i wanted it.
You have to understand application as well as music.
If we all study to the same standard, and say a thousand players have the same musical knowledge and musical abilities, what will be the thing that defines you from the next guy?
you can be the best music teacher in your field, but if you want to teach in France or Spain to open up and experience new horizons, you need to learn their language. So the OK music teacher that speaks these languages is way ahead of you as a choice. He has the rest of his life to fill in the gaps to make him a great music teacher, but one of the main skill sets now is comunication of what he knows, not how great he is.
That is how a career musician works, it is fit for purpose, as has already been said on this thread, not about being musicaly great. Players lose work ( and when you are a pro work = money) because they are to good, over qualified.
I have said before i have had to "dumb down" to work, learn techniques, styles, that is fit for purpose, that is application, it is not shooting yourself in the foot.
Music knowledge is the same know as it was in 1901, so if you study music you have a lifetime to do it. Styles and techniques change, so if you want the work you have to embrace the moment, be fit for purpose. The music academia will still be the same when that moment is over, but now hopefully you have money to fund education to put you were you want to be.
Ultimately music is what we want to learn, but technique is where we make the money.
Ultimately music is what we want to learn, but technique is where we make the money.
I am not sure I fully understand the point. Learning upright is not a technique, it is a whole new instrument! You might as well say you would get more gigs if you played piano (undoubtedly true BTW) I completely agree that we should all strive to have as many tools in the bag as possible, but I will stay say that this should not be at the expense of learning music. I believe with all my heart, that once one truly learns music, it can be applied to any instrument. So if someone wanted to switch to fretless bass, or 7 string, or lute, or piccolo trumpet, they will be able to much faster the more musically equipped they are. I myself experienced this when during my college years I studied Viola Da Gamba for a year. Because my reading chops were so strong, I was able to play a pretty difficult recital at the end of that year, and my parents thought I played the Gamba better than the upright bass! I even had to learn to read alto-clef which was a new experience. I have also been able to teach myself guitar without too much difficulty, although I have lost interest in playing guitar and just want to play more and more bass.
But again, I keep wanting to stress that the point of this thread is asking a bass legend how to IMPROVE at MUSIC according to HIS teachings. This thread is not about how to get gigs.
That would be a great and valuable thread as well and I think we should start one!
All i am doing is answering this point you made on this thread. You seem to promote a single line in learning, when there are many.
The up-right bass is a different technique, but basicly the same instrument it plays bass notes, reads the same clef, and benifits from the understanding of how bass should move and interact through music.
But again, I keep wanting to stress that the point of this thread is asking a bass legend how to IMPROVE at MUSIC according to HIS teachings. This thread is not about how to get gigs.
And i am with you and everyone else in that thought, but if players put up one sided or false information, then you will get side tracked from this learning.
What many fail to realise that the separation of music from the business of music that is the music industry is their first mistake, and how could they not make this mistake when they are on the outside looking in? Like you say a good thread for another time, but when this thread references these things as un-important, it does a mis-service to those who are learning music to ultimately make a career in music rather than a hobby.
Great talking with you if from another angle, but still an educational point that is music.
Thi is odd because bass is a C instrument. I really have no suggestions except to participate in more C type music to help you to start to hear in this key type.
I agree completely. But, I might do away with the word "clown". "Inexperienced" is probably a better term.
I don't remember this particular exercise, but some notes are also resolution notes. Charlie Banacos used to write me melodies in, say, Cmaj7 and would include an F in the melody. This note was eventually passing to a chord tone but still was a part of the tonal motion of that line. In music, it sometimes doesn't matter what you start out on, but it definitely matters what you resolve to. Remember that I said SOMETIMES because sometimes it matter a great deal what note you start with.
Yes I will be there in March foir the event. And no, you don't have to attend with any skills that you do not presently have. My job is to work with you at your level, not to ask you to rise to mine. Nobody goes home without improvement when they come to Clearwater, Florida, and I don't know of any special event that can say this.
Yes, they are some of the skills that one works on. But there are lots more. A great music teacher will offer these to you. Plus, when you learn how to read music, you are participating in one of the most sophisticated ear training events in music, identifying pitch and representing it on your instrument. Pure musical vitamins. Forget that metronome and learn music instead.
All i am doing is answering this point you made on this thread. You seem to promote a single line in learning, when there are many.
The up-right bass is a different technique, but basicly the same instrument it plays bass notes, reads the same clef, and benifits from the understanding of how bass should move and interact through music.
And i am with you and everyone else in that thought, but if players put up one sided or false information, then you will get side tracked from this learning.
What many fail to realise that the separation of music from the business of music that is the music industry is their first mistake, and how could they not make this mistake when they are on the outside looking in? Like you say a good thread for another time, but when this thread references these things as un-important, it does a mis-service to those who are learning music to ultimately make a career in music rather than a hobby.
Great talking with you if from another angle, but still an educational point that is music.
You will never hear me discourage someone from learning upright bass! I love upright, and studying upright for years has formed my musical identity and I think it would enrich most players to learn upright. Here in Nashville, it will definitely cost you some gigs if you can't play upright. However, you have to know WHAT to play on an upright and that is where studying music come in.
I think that the ranks of upright players who can't read music, don't know what notes they are playing, and don't know the harmony of the tunes they are playing are very very small.
Usually I find upright players to be the most musically informed, because most of them got into to upright playing so they could play jazz or classical. Also, a good teacher is required to learn upright, since the instrument itself is difficult to learn....which brings us right back to the point of this thread.
I also think one should need to know slap bass, as many gigs will ask for that. However, unless I am in a Primus or Dreamtheatre cover band, or want to be Stu Hamm (who I enjoy) I can't see much use for two handed tapping. I have never, ever, not once, had a musical situation that would have been improved by my tapping or had a band leader ask for it. I also wish that guitar players would get away from this most 80's of hair-band technique. Give me Stevie Ray Vaughn over Malmsteen any time. I am much more in danger of playing too many notes and getting away from the style.
If you want to work as musician, knowing as many styles of music as possible, and knowing harmony, and having a humble attitude to be faithful to the vision of the bandleader is what counts IMHO. If you are the bandleader, and doing your own solo project, then tap away...
And i find this to be true of any pro player that works as a sideman. Great talkin with you.
If you want to work as musician, knowing as many styles of music as possible, and knowing harmony, and having a humble attitude to be faithful to the vision of the bandleader is what counts IMHO.
BULLSEYE!!!!
BULLSEYE!!!!
And i find this to be true of any pro player that works as a sideman. Great talkin with you.
Great dialogueing with you as well. It is fun to be able to have a conversation with someone from the UK (possibly my favorite place on earth) while sitting in a coffee shop in Nashville!
Roy Vogt
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In light of some of my experiences with soloing on studio projects, I'd like to propose a question to Jeff:
Do you sometimes compose your solos (a la Jaco) or just play live with the band and take what happens?
I'm aware that Pat Metheny has at times composed solos by punching in phrase by phrase and then taking the "Frankenstein" solo and taking it home and learning it.
From what I can hear, everything post "In Harmony's Way" sounds like one pass. Were you doing that back in the 80s on "Champion" and "Pump It" or was there a preplanned strategy at times?
My personal preference is to go real Old School like those old 50s and 60s Jazz Records and catch a live performance and interaction. However, I'm not above punching in to tweak a phrase when the producer or co-producer thinks I can do better.
Your thoughts?
Do you sometimes compose your solos (a la Jaco) or just play live with the band and take what happens?
I'm aware that Pat Metheny has at times composed solos by punching in phrase by phrase and then taking the "Frankenstein" solo and taking it home and learning it.
From what I can hear, everything post "In Harmony's Way" sounds like one pass. Were you doing that back in the 80s on "Champion" and "Pump It" or was there a preplanned strategy at times?
My personal preference is to go real Old School like those old 50s and 60s Jazz Records and catch a live performance and interaction. However, I'm not above punching in to tweak a phrase when the producer or co-producer thinks I can do better.
Your thoughts?
Roy Vogt
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
+1 I spent the Holiday at home reading Bassist (UK) magazines and realizing how I miss those yearly tours with Engelbert and the chance to hang with Steve Lawson, Freddie Thompson, Laurence Cottle and all my "bass buds" across the Pond.
Roy Vogt
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
If it's a Bb major the E natural is the #11 of the chord. If you replace the Eb (a "no play" note because of it's 1/2 step conflict with the 3rd of the chord) with the E it creates a Lydian mode, which is a nice sound against a Bb chord because it contains the 9 (C), the #11 (E), and the 13 (G). The major scale against the major chord has that 4/3 conflict that this negates.
Hope this helps
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