Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[JimmyM]

if anyone ever embarrassed me on a gig like that, they would finish out the night without a bass player. unless the gig paid really well and i needed the money, in which case i would wait till i was paid, then i'd tell them if they ever talked to me like that again during a gig they would be extremely sorry.

i don't take this browbeating bs from bandleaders for even a second on a gig. never did. this ain't football and you ain't vince lombardi. life's too short to work with a-holes. i may be one myself sometimes, but i never once humiliated anyone onstage when i was the bandleader. what good will it do? then you just spook the poor guy and he can't play anything after that.

and i certainly don't believe that just the mere knowledge of the nuts and bolts of music and being able to read well will carry you through a gig if you have no idea about the certain idioms. i've seen the best jazz guys in town get their heads handed to them on gigs outside of their comfort zone. yes, if you can read well, you can get through it by the skin of your teeth, but you certainly won't impress anyone, and you might get a cymbal thrown at your feet.

this is where i totally don't get the concept of separating the nuts and bolts of learning music from the art of playing it. yes, ok, i get that every music has these same nuts and bolts, but just like you don't learn the nuts and bolts of a language for any other reason than to be able to communicate with other people, you don't learn the nuts and bolts of music for any other reason than to be able to perform music and make people feel the joy that you get playing it. and if you don't do it in an artistic way, then nobody's going to feel it, and it's no better than painting by numbers.

i absolutely feel that different styles of music have to be taught to people to play them convincingly, and you can never separate the nuts and bolts of music from the art of playing music. will the nuts and bolts of a solid jazz education make the process easier? certainly. but after having seen many jazzers fall flat on their faces in a rock or country setting because they knew nothing about how to play it convincingly, i really don't see how you can separate the science and art of music to such a degree where you can completely dismiss the value of learning a style's artistic strokes formally. it doesn't happen by osmosis.

 

[CDweller]

Well, you did you best. If I were you , then I would have gone home after this gig and dived into afro-cuban to make sure that I didn't repeat the experience that you went through. This is what the "Apprentice" period in a musician's life is all about; messing up and IMMEDIATELY, WITH NO HESITATION WHATSOEVER fixing the situation and playing at least legitimately well the next time.

This. When I get my tuccus kicked on the bandstand at a jam session, I immediately download the song or genre into my iphone (or a few years ago, purloin it off of Napster...), and go home and cop the exact tune or feel of the groove (reggae comes to mind)- that night, if possible.

I know of few things as uncomfortable in life as being on the bandstand and doing the play quietly and indistinctly thing because I don't know the tune or groove.

 

[engedi1]

Ah to be 19 again and know everything!!! ignorance is bliss, or at least until you walk a bass line over a bossa


!

I have my own embarrasing first time with latin jazz story...I was 15 and had been playing elec bass for about 2 or 3 years and I was at a jazz camp offered for high school students by Northern Arizona U. I was in one of the big bands and since I had studied piano since I was 6 (quite seriously actually from ages 13-15) I was a good enough reader that I could fake my way through the funkier charts and swing charts. Then the director pulls out a hot salsa tune, not a bossa, but more a cuban tumbao. I had never heard any latin jazz of any kind before and could NOT feel the bass part, and trying to read it off the chart didn't help.
The band conductor (a real big jerk from LA-sax player) was so frustrated with my attempts to play the bass line, he thought I was screwing it up on purpose. At one point he shouted something like "I don't care who your father is, if you keep trying to tell me where the one is, I'll hit you!" Since my father is not a senator, famous musician, or anybody he would have ever met or heard of I am not sure why he said the first part. Luckily, the bass teacher for the camp, a totally cool LA session pro named Bart Samolis heard this comment and rushed in and calmed him down.
I was pretty humiliated though, it sucks to be 15 and have an adult yell at you like that when you are trying your best.
Needless to say, I spent the rest of the camp learning to play a tumbao (and the really hard unison passage with the piano) and at the end of the camp, had something that would work, although it wasn't perfect.

What Bart Samolis taught me, and I think this was great, was to learn how to tap the Clave pattern with your left hand, and then tap the tumbao with your right hand. Once you can do that, you will have no problem playing the tumbao.

 

[Billnc]

This is the way I've always viewed academic exercises vs art. A visual artist will do hand studies, proportion studies etc. Those studies will not be included in any drawing. The elements and lessons learned will. The artist work will gradually improve with a combination of drawing studies and real art. Even painters draw, and they may never finish a proper drawing, but save that time for the canvas.

I've never 'performed' a cycle of 4ths, but practicing them made a tune like Fly Me to the Moon easier to learn and internalise when I was a kid. Each chord change was not a seperate event, but an easily absorbed sequence.

 

[Freddels]

Well, you did you best. If I were you , then I would have gone home after this gig and dived into afro-cuban to make sure that I didn't repeat the experience that you went through. This is what the "Apprentice" period in a musician's life is all about; messing up and IMMEDIATELY, WITH NO HESITATION WHATSOEVER fixing the situation and playing at least legitimately well the next time.

Well, my friend got chewed out by the band leader the next morning, he in turn chewed me out, I left Miami and stopped playing music for about 17 yrs. I was young, pretty broke and needed a job and obviously music wasn't going to support me (so I thought). Looking back, I should have dug in deeper but I was in a bad spot in life. Oh well.

 

[JeffBerlin]

This is what jumped out at me from this whole post, especially in the context of what I think Jeff is saying and what this whole thread is about. We have established that academics and specific academic exercises don't apply to performance, but in this case is seems to me that your musical education is what got you through that gig.

I have 20 years of playing experience with no real education other than the little bits I've picked up here and there, and I do very well in the limited genres that I play, but if I were put in that position I would have been sent home after one song.

To me, this is a big part of what a real musical education is about - rigorous academic study allows one to adapt to any genre - and it addresses the question of the validity of performance-oriented instruction. My take on it is this, and I welcome any discussion or dissent: The time spent on performance-oriented instruction is only useful for a specific genre (e.g. rock and roll camps only prepare one to play in rock bands). The same amount of time spent on the real academics of music with no attention to performance is useful for any genre; therefore, performance-oreinted instruction is really not useful at all.

In addition, I've always thought that learning and understanding techniques (e.g. slap, tap) and performance-orineted aspect of music (e.g. playing metal, proper phrasing of blues shuffles, etc) are trivial compared to learning actual music. In other words, one can learn how to slap by getting some pointers and suggestions from an accomplished slapper and learn the rest on their own in a short time. One can't do the same with the chords and their inversions. Thought?

EXACTLY! EXACTLY! This is the message that I have been explaining for 20 years and for 20 years few people got it. SOme still don't. But then a few guys show up who understand the principle of learning well. I am happy that this is becoming clear. You guys will change the landscape if you tell others to learn well. But watch out because many will try and argue with you about this.

 

[chadhargis]

I can completely understand tempers flaring and people getting frustrated during rehearsal, but on a gig, that's not professional.

There is a time and a place for getting in someone's face.

 

[JimmyM]

well i would put up more of a debate, but as i've seen, it does no good to debate anything in this thread...you either agree or you're a dolt. i only answered the first time because roy asked the question.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Maybe, maybe not! If somebody got blinsided on a gig, then their ability to play, their general musical ear, and their knowledge of music and the skill to decipher different styles on the run are the issues that will carry tghem through. Coming onto some gig and being asked to play a style or a tune that is not familiar to you is sort of common. It is easy to skate through the situation; just play low, as you can, don't exactly hit a pitch, ad get through the new tune ASAP. Or watch the piano player's hands and figure out the haromny (I used to do that). Or whatever trick of musical manipulation you can come up with should work if you are blindsided to play something that you aren't familiar with.

But I cannot emphasise enough that it would be your skill as a player/musician that would carry you through if this last second change in music on a public performance would come up. Anybody who can BS their way through a live performance is using some kind of internal musical skill method to do this. They still have to play in time and they still have to at least resolve to the chord of the moment even if they aren't downbeating on it. I used to do this all the time when I was young. But, at least I could play a little bit and so I was qualified to be in that "classroom of live playing" while some other guys needed a little more classroom time, or simpler gigs to "make their bones".

Don't look for gigs until you have something in your music that makes you qualified to play even simple gigs. If you can play a few tunes and play in time, then look for a pizzeria and have fun. I played them as a kid.

I do see what you mean. The fact that I could read well and think musically saved my life on that gig and I lived to play another day. I was musically ignorant of the style-it did not mean that I'm stupid, it just means I didn't know it. I'm ignorant of how to work on a Honda engine, too.
I learned most of my Standard tunes by playing with cranky pianists (probably cranky because my teacher had sent this green kid as a sub) and watching their left hands. Sometimes they would take pity on me and even feed me the roots of the chords if they knew I was struggling, but I always tried to have that tune figured out the second time around.
One cool thing we're doing with the school kids is a monthly jam session at a Lutheran Church here. It's run by Belmont faculty and after we play a couple of tunes we sit down and let the students run things and play Real Book tunes, etc. It's a great way for them to get their feet wet. Ira Sullivan used to do the same thing at the Unitarian Church in Miami when I was in Grad School. It's their pizza parlor gig. Now some students are scheduling an on-campus Jam session in the Curb Cafe-I call that a win.
Of course, that's Latin and Afro-Cuban and I was a bassist from Texas who hadn't heard that. I sure studied it after the fact. I don't believe I need to teach my students Nickelback tunes, they already know that stuff just like I already knew The Allman Brothers and Johnny Winter when I was a teenager. I COULD have used someone pulling me aside and telling me how to play with a drummer better-the drummers would have appreciated that.

 

[Mastermold]

I can completely understand tempers flaring and people getting frustrated during rehearsal, but on a gig, that's not professional.

There is a time and a place for getting in someone's face.

True story: playing a small club years ago we were supposed to take a break after one more song ... but the guitar player didn't want to play the last song ... the singer did ... and the singer had the mic ... so after they exchanged words (quietly) he then told the audience (not so quietly) how much he'd love to do one more "but our guitar player's attitude says we leave." Thankfully the guitar player didn't hear what he said, as he was already walking off stage, else we'd have had an even more embarrassing situation.

 

[Roy Vogt]

if anyone ever embarrassed me on a gig like that, they would finish out the night without a bass player.

Actually, I was just terrified and wanted to do it right. It was a great motivation! It was in rehearsal, so the bandleader was free to request, cajole, or whatever he needed to do to make the music work and make the artist happy. I've done so myself as a bandleader and a producer (of course if you've read a lot of my posts you could assume I'm more diplomatic).
Besides having great musical, people, and business skills I think a great asset to have as a working player is a hide like a rhinoceros!

 

[Roy Vogt]

Well, my friend got chewed out by the band leader the next morning, he in turn chewed me out, I left Miami and stopped playing music for about 17 yrs. I was young, pretty broke and needed a job and obviously music wasn't going to support me (so I thought). Looking back, I should have dug in deeper but I was in a bad spot in life. Oh well.

We've all been fired, let go of by a band, axed by a producer, etc. It's part of the human condition if you're a musician, IMO. I'm sorry you weren't in a place to be resilient with this. I guess what I'm trying to do with my students is teach them what I can to understand all of this and more importantly teach them how to deal with getting the wind knocked out of them as this business is apt to do.

 

[JimmyM]

Actually, I was just terrified and wanted to do it right. It was a great motivation! It was in rehearsal, so the bandleader was free to request, cajole, or whatever he needed to do to make the music work and make the artist happy. I've done so myself as a bandleader and a producer (of course if you've read a lot of my posts you could assume I'm more diplomatic).
Besides having great musical, people, and business skills I think a great asset to have as a working player is a hide like a rhinoceros!

ya, that's the truth...i'm a lot better than i used to be. i can take pretty much anything except getting yelled at on the bandstand and not getting a separate hotel room on the road when everyone else gets one. but in a rehearsal, sure...if you don't like what i played, give me a better idea and i'm all for it. i thought this was on a gig, though. but yeah, rehearsals...that's what they're for

but i agree with you that things like that should be taught. not as the main focus of a musical education, but for a short-run class, sure. but again, that's very bad to disagree with jeff in any way, shape or form, so i'll just slowly back away from the computer and go to my gig...

 

[chadhargis]

but again, that's very bad to disagree with jeff in any way,

You can disagree without being disagreeable.

I value Jeff's input, but at the end of the day, I have to gather the facts and do what works for me. Results are the yardstick that determines what methods work.

I don't discount anyone's ideas. People are different, and they learn differently. What works for some might not work for others.

Have Jeff's methods produced results? I believe it has, so I pay attention to what he says.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Wouldn't it have been nice if the guy who cussed you would have said, "Hey guys, let's take 5" and explained to you what he wanted and given you a little knowledge on how to learn it?

Anyone who holds an instrument, whether they can play it or not, has the potential to be the next great player if they can find that one person they can share their passion with, and who wants them to get better.

I agree with this, but there is criticism, and there is being a rude a$$hole. ******** should be dealt with differently than those who are offering you constructive criticism. You can attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Instead of cussing at someone, or throwing cymbals, maybe you just tell them, "you're just not ready to play with us, go practice XXXX":

Actually, these are very good points. I don't really defend rudeness on a gig, but I do understand it! I hav witnessed it, shut my mouth for fear of getting my ass verbally kicked, but somehwere inside, i always understood where this rudeness came from and why.

There is a political and even a responsible manner to embrace about who should play with whom. Some are unclear about the levels of the heirarchy of good players but still think that they deserve to be in there with the good guys. If they do this, then they are going to sometimes be shown hard and fast, that what they think about their playing skills isn't real and that they have entered into deep waters. Here is why!

A gig is around a couple of hours of playing. People drive to the clubs, carry their own gear into the joints, soundcheck, then play, sometimes not under ideal playing conditions nor in front of a receptive audience, pack up their equipment, get paid a few bucks and go home.

This is Holy Time! These few moments of being allowed to play from the heart are Sacred! When they get mad at lesser players violating their special time to play, I agree with them. 100%! I may not agree with the rudeness or (on rare occasions) the violence that some old time jazz guys used to exhibit when lesser players came along and messed with their music, but I do understand it!

In real terms, play with whomever you can, but weigh very carefully where and when you can and should. Young players and new players have small gigs, jams, and restaurant sessions to cut their teeth on. I did them. Jaco Pastorius did them. Pat Metheny did them and Jimi Hendrix did them. If these guys as kids didn't go through the "system" to become better players, then the good guys would know it from the first notes that they played, Then the big boys would have thrown them out on their ear. I don't condone this kind of thing, but I do understand it!

 

[JeffBerlin]

True story: playing a small club years ago we were supposed to take a break after one more song ... but the guitar player didn't want to play the last song ... the singer did ... and the singer had the mic ... so after they exchanged words (quietly) he then told the audience (not so quietly) how much he'd love to do one more "but our guitar player's attitude says we leave." Thankfully the guitar player didn't hear what he said, as he was already walking off stage, else we'd have had an even more embarrassing situation.

Nobody wants an embarrassing situation.

Before I was 20 years old, the people who I grew up playing with were John Scofield, Bill Frisell, Mike Stern, Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Smith, Gary Burton, Pat Metheny, plus the creme de la creme of the Boston music scene, some of whom did not acquire an international rep. We were all kids, dying to play, dying to improve. I played shows with dozens of bands, some internationally known artists, and this is how I learned and how I paid my apartment, living, and tuition costs. I was self-sufficient before I turned 20 years old because I could read and I absorbed music like a sponge. But, before I got to this stage, I was a Top 40 bassist and I played with guys at my level only. I always knew somewhere that i couldn't hang with the great guys and that I shouldn't try, not until that little light went off in me that said that it was time to "move on up to the East side!"

 

[chadhargis]

Some are unclear about the levels of the heirarchy of good players but still think that they deserve to be in there with the good guys.

Boy, ain't this the truth! On motorcycle rides, I've picked more than a few people up out of ditches and helped get them medical attention because they think they can run with the big dogs. They have more ego than they do skill.

Humility is a good thing.

Jamming for fun with great musicians is one thing. Showing up to a paying gig and stinking up the place is inexcusable. Learn the songs, take them to the shed, rehearse together, and put on a good show.

Even as a singer I've had people show up to perform with a lyric sheet, no idea of their harmony part, having done no work on phrasing, and have no clue when to sing and when to do an "ooooh" or an "ahhhhh". Missed every rehearsal. Figuring they will just "jump in". It's a choir, so if they screw up no one will know, or they'll just stand there if they get lost.

The audience might not know, but when I listen to the house recordings after the performance, I can hear them. People in harmony will be heard as a group....but those NOT in harmony stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[tZer]

I found that part of my formal music education included becoming acquainted with 'hot-headed' band leaders. Whatever their reason, they were the leader and if you weren't delivering your end of the deal, you sometimes became the recipient of a public flogging in rehearsal.

Right or wrong has absolutely nothing to do with it. Where some may feel he could have handled it differently, other (usually those who did their homework and were playing their parts properly) feel he probably should have thrown the baton at 'em as well as read 'em the riot act.

That's life under bosses - period. You, as a person, human being, musician can choose to take offense by such a thing or simply take it for what it's worth and continue to do the best you can. If you're a slacker, it'll catch up to you and you'll end up out of the gig/class, eventually.

In school when that sort of thing happens it doesn't impact your wallet or 'rep' (other than your rep as a student), and unless he's kicking you out of the class, you know you'll be back the next day. But experiencing a hot-headed bandleader in that environment does indeed prepare you for the real world where you will certainly encounter hot-heads - and this sort of ties to Roy Vogt's question about whether or not such things should be a part of a 'class'.

My experience with those bandleaders in school taught me to study and practice harder for a lot of reasons, but one very big one is to avoid being singled out for not doing my job. But that's not a 'lesson' that's overtly included in the curricula, that's a by-product of being in a performing ensemble at a school that resembles a professional situation where there are rehearsals and group goals that depend on everyone performing well.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Boy, ain't this the truth! On motorcycle rides, I've picked more than a few people up out of ditches and helped get them medical attention because they think they can run with the big dogs. They have more ego than they do skill.

Humility is a good thing.

Jamming for fun with great musicians is one thing. Showing up to a paying gig and stinking up the place is inexcusable. Learn the songs, take them to the shed, rehearse together, and put on a good show.

Even as a singer I've had people show up to perform with a lyric sheet, no idea of their harmony part, having done no work on phrasing, and have no clue when to sing and when to do an "ooooh" or an "ahhhhh". Missed every rehearsal. Figuring they will just "jump in". It's a choir, so if they screw up no one will know, or they'll just stand there if they get lost.

The audience might not know, but when I listen to the house recordings after the performance, I can hear them. People in harmony will be heard as a group....but those NOT in harmony stick out like a sore thumb.

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated story. This is why I dismiss thoughts that do not observe that 'everything in its time" is the manner to musically live by. The trick is to earn the right to enter into new musical levels that justify new associations with higher level players. The key term here is "Earn" not "deserve"!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hi Jeff. My first post in any thread of yours.

Thanks very much. I appreciate your posts a great deal, and find much to consider and learn from within them.

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General question - has anyone compiled links to the posts in which Jeff offers specific examples on what or how to study & develop ?

You are welcome! Enjoy and pitch in when you have a thought.