Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[Roy Vogt]

OK, so here's an interesting question/situation I'll posit:
At Belmont we do a Combined Seminar Class about once a month for all the Commercial Majors. We'll assign specific tunes, build a band of students, perform the tunes and critique how they are playing together, what they're playing, etc.
The next tune we are dealing with is Oye Como Va. I handed out the charts and then we looked at video of Tito Puente and Santana's Band performing the tune (this was Guitar/Electric Bass). I then taught the 3:2 and 2:3 Son and Rumba Clave, how they fit into any Afro-Cuban tune, and how you can find one that will fit and continue through an entire tune. I showed them the Basic Tumbao Line and how elements of that line were in the Bass Line of Oye Como Va.
I'll contrast this with how I learned to play this style:
I was a 25 year old Grad Student at the U of M. I got called to read a concert by a Puerto Rican Music Star (El Show de Sophie). Being a good Jazz major from North Texas State I thought, "Latin Music? Oh, like Spain and Wave. I'm cool..."
The rehearsal went something like this:
"OK, let's take the first tune guys. 1, 2-1-2-3-4....NO! NO! NO!
Bassplayer! Bassplayer! Let the note on beat 4 ring into the next measure. I know it's not on the chart, but that's what I need!"
The object of the next 3 hours of rehearsal was to not get fired. They sent the drummer home (a fine player who was on faculty at U of M but not a Latin drummer). Fortunately, being a good sightreader and quick study saved my butt. The bandleader was very kind and sent me home with a list of players to check out (Bobby Valentin, Ray Barretto, Fania All-Stars, etc.)
So, here's my query: Is a style class that deals with this stuff before you have to use it on a gig valid? Personally I'd rather explain this in a classroom setting rather than have my students get blindsided on a gig like I was.
Thoughts?

 

[Jim Campbell]

Ascending and descending on the forms. Just to ad a thought: practically all exercises are not applicable. This means that you can't practice, say, F minor 7 chord tones inversions and use them on a gig. Most exercises that one practices are not applicable to gigs. They are only knowledge oriented events, to define certain tonal realities and translate them to a bass neck (in our case). There is practically no example of certain academic principles being used on gigs Thoughts??

i get the part about the strategy of exercises.i saw the exercise that pete listed and wondered about the scope of it,specifically the maj/min (jazz minor) stuff.....outside of learning to arpeggiate it and it's inversions i could find no larger goal like a cycle of fifths,or a system of modes based on that scale....if the exercise is simply to get that particular chord structure under ones fingers,i can see that too,but i thought there might be some aspect of that particular exercise i am missing

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I have been thinking a lot about this discussion of "music for knowledge's sake" and "music for performance" lately. While I can see where Jeff is coming from about how academics and performance are two separate things, in my opinion, there has to be a point where at least a little performance (or art, if you will) has to come into the equation.

Anyone who studies anything in great detail has to have a goal for those studies and hard work. And for most musicians, that is in the form of a gig (at least in a professional way). This may include more elementary styles than jazz. But just because it is more elementary melodically and harmonically, it doesn't necessarily mean it's included as part of jazz studies, does it?

A plumber learns his skills in order to do commercial plumbing work and get paid. A lawyer learns law so that he can practice law in court (and really get paid!). An engineer similarly learns in his domain to use it to design and get paid. At some point, the skills have to be applied.

Is music unique in that the goal should be for the sake of knowledge and love of music alone?

 

[JeffBerlin]

That's true. An academic principle is something you put in your bag of musical knowledge that you access on automatic pilot when you're on a gig.
If I give a Simandl or Hrabe etude to a Double Bass student he certainly won't be playing it on his Jazz or Orchestral gigs, but it will help him to play both of those better.

'Zakly!

 

[Freddels]

OK, so here's an interesting question/situation I'll posit:
At Belmont we do a Combined Seminar Class about once a month for all the Commercial Majors. We'll assign specific tunes, build a band of students, perform the tunes and critique how they are playing together, what they're playing, etc.
The next tune we are dealing with is Oye Como Va. I handed out the charts and then we looked at video of Tito Puente and Santana's Band performing the tune (this was Guitar/Electric Bass). I then taught the 3:2 and 2:3 Son and Rumba Clave, how they fit into any Afro-Cuban tune, and how you can find one that will fit and continue through an entire tune. I showed them the Basic Tumbao Line and how elements of that line were in the Bass Line of Oye Como Va.
I'll contrast this with how I learned to play this style:
I was a 25 year old Grad Student at the U of M. I got called to read a concert by a Puerto Rican Music Star (El Show de Sophie). Being a good Jazz major from North Texas State I thought, "Latin Music? Oh, like Spain and Wave. I'm cool..."
The rehearsal went something like this:
"OK, let's take the first tune guys. 1, 2-1-2-3-4....NO! NO! NO!
Bassplayer! Bassplayer! Let the note on beat 4 ring into the next measure. I know it's not on the chart, but that's what I need!"
The object of the next 3 hours of rehearsal was to not get fired. They sent the drummer home (a fine player who was on faculty at U of M but not a Latin drummer). Fortunately, being a good sightreader and quick study saved my butt. The bandleader was very kind and sent me home with a list of players to check out (Bobby Valentin, Ray Barretto, Fania All-Stars, etc.)
So, here's my query: Is a style class that deals with this stuff before you have to use it on a gig valid? Personally I'd rather explain this in a classroom setting rather than have my students get blindsided on a gig like I was.
Thoughts?

Reminds me of my nightmare in Miami. I left NT and went to Miami to see if I could get on the cruise ships. My friend was a top bass player there and when I get there, he's sick with pneumonia. He needs a sub fast and tells me I can do the gig no problem. I get to the gig and it's all Afro-Cuban (a style which I had never played) and there were no charts. It just kept getting worse as the night went on. If looks could kill, I wouldn't have survived the night.

 

[JeffBerlin]

So, here's my query: Is a style class that deals with this stuff before you have to use it on a gig valid? Personally I'd rather explain this in a classroom setting rather than have my students get blindsided on a gig like I was.
Thoughts?

Maybe, maybe not! If somebody got blinsided on a gig, then their ability to play, their general musical ear, and their knowledge of music and the skill to decipher different styles on the run are the issues that will carry tghem through. Coming onto some gig and being asked to play a style or a tune that is not familiar to you is sort of common. It is easy to skate through the situation; just play low, as you can, don't exactly hit a pitch, ad get through the new tune ASAP. Or watch the piano player's hands and figure out the haromny (I used to do that). Or whatever trick of musical manipulation you can come up with should work if you are blindsided to play something that you aren't familiar with.

But I cannot emphasise enough that it would be your skill as a player/musician that would carry you through if this last second change in music on a public performance would come up. Anybody who can BS their way through a live performance is using some kind of internal musical skill method to do this. They still have to play in time and they still have to at least resolve to the chord of the moment even if they aren't downbeating on it. I used to do this all the time when I was young. But, at least I could play a little bit and so I was qualified to be in that "classroom of live playing" while some other guys needed a little more classroom time, or simpler gigs to "make their bones".

Don't look for gigs until you have something in your music that makes you qualified to play even simple gigs. If you can play a few tunes and play in time, then look for a pizzeria and have fun. I played them as a kid.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Reminds me of my nightmare in Miami. I left NT and went to Miami to see if I could get on the cruise ships. My friend was a top bass player there and when I get there, he's sick with pneumonia. He needs a sub fast and tells me I can do the gig no problem. I get to the gig and it's all Afro-Cuban (a style which I had never played) and there were no charts. It just kept getting worse as the night went on. If looks could kill, I wouldn't have survived the night.

Well, you did you best. If I were you , then I would have gone home after this gig and dived into afro-cuban to make sure that I didn't repeat the experience that you went through. This is what the "Apprentice" period in a musician's life is all about; messing up and IMMEDIATELY, WITH NO HESITATION WHATSOEVER fixing the situation and playing at least legitimately well the next time.

 

[Toronto Bassist]

What are some of your favorite standards to play on?

 

[JeffBerlin]

What are some of your favorite standards to play on?

Dunno. Most of them! A couple that I can do without, but they all have a place somewhere in my developmnent and continued playing life.

 

[TimK]

Well, you did you best. If I were you , then I would have gone home after this gig and dived into afro-cuban to make sure that I didn't repeat the experience that you went through. This is what the "Apprentice" period in a musician's life is all about; messing up and IMMEDIATELY, WITH NO HESITATION WHATSOEVER fixing the situation and playing at least legitimately well the next time.

I'm sure everyone has a story about getting blindsided on a gig.... So here is mine!

I had just started in the bass again in college and really had no idea what the hell I was doing!!! Some upper classman had a weekly gig playing jazz standards and I used to go check it out a lot. One night they invited me to sit in and read a few tunes from the real book. They called something easy for me, Blue Bossa. I tought "no sweat I got this.: Then I played a walking bassline over the WHOLE tune! At the end if the song, the other bass player litterally ripped his bass out of my hands and said, "Next time learn to play a F-ing bossa!!!" I was totally embaressed. I left right away, and learned how to play a bossa that night!! a humbling moment and a good lesson.

 

[TimK]

I've been following this this thread since the begining and really working on the chord tone excerises that Jeff suggests. I really have only been working with Cmaj and C min but playing all the iversions, all the way up and down the next etc...

I had a rehearsal last night at the church gig I have and played some tunes we have played hundreds of times, but suddenly, with out concious effort, I was playing these same tunes WAAAAAAAAY for melodically and interesting!!! It was so cool!!! It was like the excerices I have been working on litterally just snuck into my playing, completely unconciously and with out effort! It was amazing. And this was with pretty limited time working on these excercises (maybe 20 min 2-3 times a week- on just Cmaj!!) Can't wait to keep digging in and fin dout what happens next!

 

[JeffBerlin]

I'm sure everyone has a story about getting blindsided on a gig.... So here is mine!

I had just started in the bass again in college and really had no idea what the hell I was doing!!! Some upper classman had a weekly gig playing jazz standards and I used to go check it out a lot. One night they invited me to sit in and read a few tunes from the real book. They called something easy for me, Blue Bossa. I tought "no sweat I got this.: Then I played a walking bassline over the WHOLE tune! At the end if the song, the other bass player litterally ripped his bass out of my hands and said, "Next time learn to play a F-ing bossa!!!" I was totally embaressed. I left right away, and learned how to play a bossa that night!! a humbling moment and a good lesson.

This is what I have been saying for a long time, with some guys arguing hard against my comments: Gigs take care of themselves. You don't need gig lessons. Nobody does! Nobody needs gig advice especially for pay. Here is my gig advice; show up on time and play well. Period! There is nothing else to go with this because 100% of every gigging music who ever played an instrument anywhere in the world at any time in history learning how to play this way.



Everybody here knows that famous story about Charlie Parker who, when sitting in with a band during his younger formative years, was suddenly interrupted when the drummer removed his ride cymbal and tossed it on the stage in front of Parker crashing on the stage, signalling to him how badly he was playing. Charlie was no fool; he took that bit of humiliation and used it well. He practiced for the love of music alone, to become the best player that he could become, all learned from one moment's emotional ass whipping on a gig by an angry drummer. Today, people and their fragile egos are made of wet tissue paper. Telling people the truth is like stirring up a hornet's nest; they simply cannot take it because their personal validation rides on anything said here or elseware that might conflict with their standard of what is politically correct to say. This is one reason why I greatly dislike political correctness. You can't call a spade a spade even when the term fits. A lousy musician is a lousy musician, no matter if their feelings are hurt or not. Either one falls into this group or one does not. Period!

If you can't play, then sell your bass and quit. Or, do what TimK did, and learn how to play after the truth was explained to him in not such a nice manner. Let's show some musical grit because music and the politics of it is in a piss-poor way these days.

 

[TimK]

This is what I have been saying for a long time, with some guys arguing hard against my comments: Gigs take care of themselves. You don't need gig lessons. Nobody does! Nobody needs gig advice especially for pay. Here is my gig advice; show up on time and play well. Period! There is nothing else to go with this because 100% of every gigging music who ever played an instrument anywhere in the world at any time in history learning how to play this way.



Everybody here knows that famous story about Charlie Parker who, when sitting in with a band during his younger formative years, was suddenly interrupted when the drummer removed his ride cymbal and tossed it on the stage in front of Parker crashing on the stage, signalling to him how badly he was playing. Charlie was no fool; he took that bit of humiliation and used it well. He practiced for the love of music alone, to become the best player that he could become, all learned from one moment's emotional ass whipping on a gig by an angry drummer. Today, people and their fragile egos are made of wet tissue paper. Telling people the truth is like stirring up a hornet's nest; they simply cannot take it because their personal validation rides on anything said here or elseware that might conflict with their standard of what is politically correct to say. This is one reason why I greatly dislike political correctness. You can't call a spade a spade even when the term fits. A lousy musician is a lousy musician, no matter if their feelings are hurt or not. Either one falls into this group or one does not. Period!

If you can't play, then sell your bass and quit. Or, do what TimK did, and learn how to play after the truth was explained to him in not such a nice manner. Let's show some musical grit because music and the politics of it is in a piss-poor way these days.

Agreed!

Funny side note from my story is that the bass player that ripped the bass out of my hands, ended up being a friend and somewhat of an upperclassmen mentor to me. He helped me out a lot, and got me a few gigs too that he couldn't do. Funny how stuf works out sometimes.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I've been following this this thread since the begining and really working on the chord tone excerises that Jeff suggests. I really have only been working with Cmaj and C min but playing all the iversions, all the way up and down the next etc...

I had a rehearsal last night at the church gig I have and played some tunes we have played hundreds of times, but suddenly, with out concious effort, I was playing these same tunes WAAAAAAAAY for melodically and interesting!!! It was so cool!!! It was like the excerices I have been working on litterally just snuck into my playing, completely unconciously and with out effort! It was amazing. And this was with pretty limited time working on these excercises (maybe 20 min 2-3 times a week- on just Cmaj!!) Can't wait to keep digging in and fin dout what happens next!

Good for you! I KNEW that if people learn "The Good Stuff" then it will show up eventually, orgaincally, naturally. It always does IF you have learned well!

BUT..............

Don't lose the purpose of the style that you are supposed to play. It took me a long time to learn that if I know a lot of ways to, say, play on a blues form, it might be better if I just play the way that is expected of me in whatever group that I am in.

In other words, don't do what you can do simply because you can do it. CHOOSE the notes that you wish to play. When you are playing a part, or a style of music, then play it legitimately. this means that a lot of different chord tones may not be appropriate to the art form that you are playing with other guys, so choose your notes and style interpretations well.

 

[Yools]

OK, so here's an interesting question/situation I'll posit:

snip snip

Fortunately, being a good sightreader and quick study saved my butt...

This is what jumped out at me from this whole post, especially in the context of what I think Jeff is saying and what this whole thread is about. We have established that academics and specific academic exercises don't apply to performance, but in this case is seems to me that your musical education is what got you through that gig. I have 20 years of playing experience with no real education other than the little bits I've picked up here and there, and I do very well in the limited genres that I play, but if I were put in that position I would have been sent home after one song.

To me, this is a big part of what a real musical education is about - rigorous academic study allows one to adapt to any genre - and it addresses the question of the validity of performance-oriented instruction. My take on it is this, and I welcome any discussion or dissent: The time spent on performance-oriented instruction is only useful for a specific genre (e.g. rock and roll camps only prepare one to play in rock bands). The same amount of time spent on the real academics of music with no attention to performance is useful for any genre; therefore, performance-oreinted instruction is really not useful at all.

In addition, I've always thought that learning and understanding techniques (e.g. slap, tap) and performance-orineted aspect of music (e.g. playing metal, proper phrasing of blues shuffles, etc) are trivial compared to learning actual music. In other words, one can learn how to slap by getting some pointers and suggestions from an accomplished slapper and learn the rest on their own in a short time. One can't do the same with the chords and their inversions. Thought?

 

[SMASH]

Hi Jeff. My first post in any thread of yours.

Thanks very much. I appreciate your posts a great deal, and find much to consider and learn from within them.

---------------

General question - has anyone compiled links to the posts in which Jeff offers specific examples on what or how to study & develop ?

 

[chadhargis]

I tought "no sweat I got this.: Then I played a walking bassline over the WHOLE tune! At the end if the song, the other bass player litterally ripped his bass out of my hands and said, "Next time learn to play a F-ing bossa!!!"

Wow, and how you didn't drag the guy outside and, beat him to a pulp, and tell him "Learn how to f'ing fight" is beyond me. :scowl:

As a new player, I've not played a gig and don't expect to for quite some time. But at some point, we didn't know what we know now, and we don't know today what we'll know in the future. It's called learning, and it never stops.

I spent an hour and a half watching Jeff's Players School DVD last night, and several times he mentioned how things had been done for "hundreds of years". While I'm sure there are exceptional people who come out of the womb as a prodigy, most people have to learn from someone. Someone who is patient, and plays because they love music. Everything I've ever done well in my life, I've done well because I had a good mentor. A person who was not just concerned with teaching material, but also consumed with so much passion for something that they enjoy sharing it with others. That passion is contagious, and as a newbie at anything, we're prone to reach a point where we get discouraged. A mentor with passion AND knowledge is always willing to help you over those periods.

Wouldn't it have been nice if the guy who cussed you would have said, "Hey guys, let's take 5" and explained to you what he wanted and given you a little knowledge on how to learn it?

Anyone who holds an instrument, whether they can play it or not, has the potential to be the next great player if they can find that one person they can share their passion with, and who wants them to get better.

If you can't play, then sell your bass and quit. Or, do what TimK did, and learn how to play after the truth was explained to him in not such a nice manner. Let's show some musical grit because music and the politics of it is in a piss-poor way these days.

I agree with this, but there is criticism, and there is being a rude a$$hole. ******** should be dealt with differently than those who are offering you constructive criticism. You can attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Instead of cussing at someone, or throwing cymbals, maybe you just tell them, "you're just not ready to play with us, go practice XXXX".

the bass player that ripped the bass out of my hands, ended up being a friend and somewhat of an upperclassmen mentor to me. He helped me out a lot, and got me a few gigs too that he couldn't do. Funny how stuf works out sometimes.

Guess it's good you didn't kick his butt huh?

 

[TimK]

Good for you! I KNEW that if people learn "The Good Stuff" then it will show up eventually, orgaincally, naturally. It always does IF you have learned well!

BUT..............

Don't lose the purpose of the style that you are supposed to play. It took me a long time to learn that if I know a lot of ways to, say, play on a blues form, it might be better if I just play the way that is expected of me in whatever group that I am in.

In other words, don't do what you can do simply because you can do it. CHOOSE the notes that you wish to play. When you are playing a part, or a style of music, then play it legitimately. this means that a lot of different chord tones may not be appropriate to the art form that you are playing with other guys, so choose your notes and style interpretations well.

+1
That is almost as important as leaning the musical facts IMO.

There used to be (proabably still are) these "rules" for success for bass players that I relied a lot. Think they went something like this. don't remeber where I heard them.

Jeff your thoughts/comments? -this is more performance based than educational though and may veer from the subject of this thread. but here they are anyway

1. Be in the pocket -It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing! you can play wrong notes, but if its in the pocket you can at least survive
2. Be in the Bag- meaning being styliclally correct. Like not playing a walking line over a bossa... as I learned the hard way and mentioned above.
3. Be in tune. self explanitory.

can't remeber if there was 1 more "rule" or not.

These rules helped me avoid playing what was not appropriate for a given situation as a younger player. Actually I still think about these rules.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

But I cannot emphasise enough that it would be your skill as a player/musician that would carry you through if this last second change in music on a public performance would come up. Anybody who can BS their way through a live performance is using some kind of internal musical skill method to do this.

This answers my earlier question.

I guess the main fear, as Roy and others have pointed out, is getting to the stage and realizing that you're not quite as prepared as you thought you were. I guess that's a hell-of-a motivation to improve though!

 

[TimK]

Wow, and how you didn't drag the guy outside and, beat him to a pulp, and tell him "Learn how to f'ing fight" is beyond me. :scowl:

---
Wouldn't it have been nice if the guy who cussed you would have said, "Hey guys, let's take 5" and explained to you what he wanted and given you a little knowledge on how to learn it?




I agree with this, but there is criticism, and there is being a rude a$$hole. ******** should be dealt with differently than those who are offering you constructive criticism. You can attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Instead of cussing at someone, or throwing cymbals, maybe you just tell them, "you're just not ready to play with us, go practice XXXX".



Guess it's good you didn't kick his butt huh?

HA! would have liked to, but would have NEVER played with those guys later. Plus I was in so much shock from getting my ego destoyed and having reality set in that I didn't think about confrontation! I'm a lover not a fighter anyway- but I get your joke

Plus we were all like 19-21 year olds who thought we were hot $hit Jazz players in Northern, MN. So it's no suprise that there was not a whole lot of adult logic on display that night.

Ah to be 19 again and know everything!!! ignorance is bliss, or at least until you walk a bass line over a bossa


good luck with your studies chadhargis!!!