Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[SuperFunkyPete]

so is that building the chords based on the modes of the major scale,then chords based on the scale of the dorian mode etc

Just about.

Cmin(maj7) is based on jazz minor, i.e. a minor scale with b3, natural 6 and natural 7. It harmonises differently to dorian/aeolian/phyrgian, which all can be derived from the major scale.

The diminished chords come from either a whole/half tone diminished scale, or a half/whole tone diminished scale, in jazz anyway.

Etc.

 

[Roy Vogt]

One sneaky thing that I do with younger students when they are wanting to learn Rock stuff is to hand it to them in notation and have them find the notes on their neck and figure out where they think it makes the most sense to play it.
That works on a couple of levels-it demystifies reading because they can see the repetitive nature of a lot of rock lines and what was a series of random notes on a staff becomes a recognizeable pattern, it makes them think critically about where it makes sense to play the line and may give an opportunity to demonstrate position playing and LH efficiency, and if it's a particularly clever line it may allow you to talk about chord inversions, common tones, etc. I'll pretty much always take the song and extrapolate the idea out into some exercises for the student to take and work on.
College kids are way easier to teach because they really want to play well and know that they have something they need to learn. High school and middle school students are a challenge because they have really short attention spans and have been raised with instant gratification and "everyone wins/let's all feel good" that saps a lot of motivation to put effort into something. Billnc, if you live in that world my hat's off to you because those are the most challenging students and yet you will make the most difference to them in their musical lives

 

[Billnc]

Was it requested by a student because it's "cool" and he just wants to learn the notes? That would be wrong-like doing a series of lessons based on all the songs in Guitar Hero or something with no explanation. I get what you mean.

Requested by the manager of the store, used as an example to get me away from the chord stuff, and the explaning you did! Teach by showing. If they never learn how music works they'll keep coming back. If I show a kid how the key of G works they'll have the tools to play any song in G. Now if someone else shows them Brown Eyed Girl, Sweet Home Alabama and Nothing Else Matters, that kid is still clueless about G!

I was lucky enough at 17 to have the only guy I could find to give lessons be the Jimmy Bruno (there's Philly style) type. I'm still trying to find him to thank him, without someone to insist what was right my 33 year trip wouldn't have been so great.

Roy we do the same thing with the reading. Looking up the tabs on any assignment is a deal breaker too.

 

[Roy Vogt]

OK, Jeff. Here's a question-the sheer amount of time I've been logging on TB has made me think of this. You've got at least as busy of a life as I have-between Belmont, private students, gigs and "life stuff" I'm looking at 80 hours a week before I can even look at my own musical growth. In my case I'm then forced to choose between Electric and Jazz or Classical Upright Bass study/practice. How do you keep motivated and working on your own music, music business, and agenda with a really limited amount of time? Do you have any strategies you've come across to help you stay "on target"?

 

[Roy Vogt]

Requested by the manager of the store, used as an example to get me away from the chord stuff, and the explaning you did! Teach by showing. If they never learn how music works they'll keep coming back.

What a drag-he's thinking like a salesman and you're thinking like a teacher! I guess my counter to this is that a student who learns how to think on the instrument will want more music books, better instruments, and may stay with it long enough to develop a relationship with the store. Don't know if he'll see that.
What a blessing that you had a great teacher! I had Ed Garcia in the DFW area. He taught me to read anything, taught me Upright as well as Electric (I appreciate it much more now at 54 than I did at 18) and coached me into being a young Pro Player in our area. I owe him big time-he and Don Coffman (U of M) are my musical "Senseis" and mentors. These two gentlemen are why I chose to teach as well as play. I hope I can do the same for my students.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Oh I'm sure that's true. I'm just jealous, sitting here at my desk job I'd much rather be there!

Come on over. You're an airplane and a taxi ride from a total bass update. How hard can it be to plan a week out of your life. We have the One Week Intensive March 22nd. Come over and I will do the same to you (at your level( as I am doing with Pete.

 

[chadhargis]

Love the discussion on teaching. I don't know music, but I know a fair amount about teaching adults as I've done quite a bit of it over the years.

The #1 thing that solidifies anything in an adult's brain is something I call "KR" or "knowledge of results". I tell all my students that I won't teach them anything. What I will do is "coach" them. Lead them to the water, but it's up to them to drink. If they don't, they get thirsty. If they drink, their thirst for knowledge is quenched.....knowledge of results.

I imagine it's the same thing with music.

Last night I was doing some ear training in the major scale. Playing the root, humming an interval, then playing the note to see if I was right. As a singer, this isn't hard for me to do. I've done it for years. Even if I don't know the song, it seems that there are only a few logical notes that can follow another that sound good. I don't know what you call that, but it makes it easy to learn a song.

As I was practicing, I noticed that the root-5th combination was "Dock of the Bay" by Otis Redding. So I fired up iTunes, and sure enough. That was it. I played the entire song using the major scale intervals except for one stray note. Knowing his music, I know that the bass lines are simple, and sure enough. Most of the Otis Redding songs I have are dead stone simple to play. I also banged out "Mary Had A Little Lamb"....yeah, yeah....laugh if you will, but it got harder when I played it faster and added a funky rhythm to it.

The root-5th is also Stevie Wonder's "I just called to say I love you". Root-3rd-4th is a Wham song...I forget the title. All discerned from "KR".

At any rate. As I am practicing one thing, I'm hearing patterns that sound like songs I know. The frustrating thing is I don't know I know this stuff. If I were "taught to fish" then I think I could bait a bunch of hooks and my learning would take off.

I have my second lesson with my new teacher Thursday. One of the things I plan on asking him about is a "curriculum". What am I going to be learning? It will give me an opportunity to study some of the concepts when I'm sitting on a plane, on a particularly long boring conference call, or it's "quiet hours" at home and I can't play.

The one thing that now makes much more sense to me is Jeff's statement about practicing "musical" things. Playing permutations is good finger exercise and helps me learn the instrument physically and develop good basic fundamental technique, but I hear no music it the exercise. When I work on reading or ear training, I hear songs. I recognize songs when I play a series of notes. Then I end up trying to figure out how to play the rest of the song. The most important thing is, I recognize that I'm playing within a scale, and if I have to play a flattened interval, I recognize that. I know when reading if I see a "7" for the chord, that I can play the 7 interval and it sounds good. But I didn't learn this from a teacher or an exercise. I learned it from knowledge of results. Trying it, and discovering "hey, that's the right note!".

Learning is just damn fun ya'll.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Same here.

I love music, and I love a challenge. I'm hoping that my teacher starts to really lay it on me. Make me work. Drive me. Push me. The most fun is when you have to think outside the box. Expand the way you think about a subject.

I will start my summer "slush fund" job in March. I'm going to save up my money and do my best to get to the one week course at Players School. Maybe by that time, I'll have much of the fundamental stuff down pat so I can get the most from Jeff's lessons.

My lesson will apply to whatever level that you are at. We have a lot of pure beginners who come here, guys who can't play a note and who can't read one either. The idea is that you come to The Players School (or any school that you attend) at whatever level you are presently at. I have never come to terms with why a player auditions to go to a school to learn. Unless one is auditioning for a top slot with a top teacher because they are already top players, the idea of auditioning to quality to learn seems dumb to me. Just come as you are. I will take the resppnsibility to show you what you need to know from your level. This is what I have always been saying. The TEACHER should take the 100% total responsibility to raise your musical game, or else they don't know what they are doing.

 

[chadhargis]

Come on over. You're an airplane and a taxi ride from a total bass update. How hard can it be to plan a week out of your life.

Jeff, do you know when the next one week intensive class will be (don't have the scratch for the March date)?

I'll drive down and save the money on the plane and rental car. Get a roach motel. Then spend a week doing some powerful learning.

And yes, I'll bring you some ribs.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Man it's so hard to get someone to understand that we're trying to teach people how to fish. I got the "You need to try to do some Jaco lessons, reggae lessons, or funk lessons." Teen Town in particular was mentioned. Huh?

Once again this is a situation where band instruments and orchestral instruments are taught. The level of teaching guitar and bass should be held to the same standards. Why is this not so?

I've got a great retention rate, and a 100 percent without fail quote. Every student who has been motivated enough to learn the basic ways music work and practice these lessons goes on to learn the style of music they like to play without the need for that type 'lesson'. The ratio of students who do this, in fact seems higher than those who just want to do Green Day or the flavor of the day. Most of those kids never even bother with that.

I freely admit if a student liked a Reggae song and couldn't work it out, I am not beyond using a part of lesson where they count it out and learn to write the rythm. This strikes me as musical information.

Regarding the rock and roll camps. It's not the academics that strike me as so wrong, How UNrock and roll is it to do a camp? The beauty of rock is when guys who may or may not know so much about music, through sheer will and on their own, manage to make some art, some of it quite good.

Bill nc stands for music. It is obvious by his posts. He isn't saying that in art, you play whatever it is you wish to play. This is why we learn, so that we are good enough to express ourselves in 100% of whatever it is that we wish to play. He is saying that rock classes, Teen Town, slap class, etc. are an entertainment, not a musically valid form of education. Learn one way, play in another. Take vitamins, but do exercise as well. Do two things and you benefit from both experiences. Do one thing, and you won't.

 

[JeffBerlin]

The key to teaching any of the Jaco stuff, IMO, is dealing with what he's doing harmonically. If I teach "Teen Town" for example, I'm not about the business of teaching the bassist to imitate it-"Polly Wanna Cracker"-but to understand why it sounds the way that it does.
That's an interesting piece of music-Jaco goes back and forth from being a bass player to being a horn player in about every other phrase. There's one that's virtually copped from Chuck Rainey's bridge on "Rock Steady" (every Funk bassist in 1973 played that lick somewhere) and then there will be one that starts on the 3rd of the chord and only winds up on the Root at the end of the phrase. After the key change there are Pentatonic Scale licks off of the 9th and the tritone substitution that are similar to the pentatonic reharmonizations I posted a while ago. The harmony is plateau modal Dominant/13th chords-Jaco uses something similar on Punk Jazz.
I won't shy away from teaching a popular bass anthem-but I won't teach one by rote. If you can explain to a student WHY the line sounds like it does and how they can use those devices in their own playing you've taught them to fish, not just given them one of Jaco's old Filet of Fish Sandwiches from McDonalds....

Gotta separate from Roy on this one. Literature to teach students outweight the anthems that represent them. Teen Town is a cliche. It is THE anthem for bass players world-wide, but I can think of a lot better things to show bass players if I charge them money to learn from me. Lots of guys can play Teen Town and don't need a teacher to learn it. Besides, it isn't that great of a piece of music harmonically speaking as compared to the zillion other works that are far, far richer in harmonic content and which fall into a far more meaningful academic lesson. Sorry Roy. Can we still have sex this weekend?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Requested by the manager of the store, used as an example to get me away from the chord stuff, and the explaning you did! Teach by showing. If they never learn how music works they'll keep coming back. If I show a kid how the key of G works they'll have the tools to play any song in G. Now if someone else shows them Brown Eyed Girl, Sweet Home Alabama and Nothing Else Matters, that kid is still clueless about G!

I was lucky enough at 17 to have the only guy I could find to give lessons be the Jimmy Bruno (there's Philly style) type. I'm still trying to find him to thank him, without someone to insist what was right my 33 year trip wouldn't have been so great.

Roy we do the same thing with the reading. Looking up the tabs on any assignment is a deal breaker too.

I have to agree with Bill on this one. Academic approach should represent content, even if the teach might sometimes feel that the content comes from a hit song or an occasional "cheat".

I have a pretty hard thing to share. I don't care if anyone comes back. I am not looking to persuade anybody to learn how to play. Frankly, I wish that a few of these guys would just go away. They aren't into music. They are into entertainment. This is fine, and I enjoy chatting about bass with anybody who has some kind of an interest in it. But, I don't wish to teach anybody who isn't into it with a great deal of commitment. I don't believe at all, sugar coat a lesson so that some kid might come back because there are enough guys who will do anything to find out how to musical improve. The Players School of Music is a small school because only these types of musically motivated people come here. We have no super-difficult lessons and we never, ever brow beat a guy to play better. We tell guys to practice and fix their mistakes. THAT IS IT! I will give musical information to a guy ONLY AT THEIR LEVEL (what I gave to Peter Weill is not what I give to a lot of guys around here). They they practice it. That's it! No memorization! No comments about how they how they should play better. In fact, these guys are always after me to give them new and better homeworks. THESE are my kind of guys. If a kid need cajoling, hoping that he might come back, i can tell you that utterly reject this form of teaching. You have to blast down my door asking questions, asking who and how to do next if you want to study with me. And this describes all the students at The Players School. Ask Pete Weill. He's not in my pocket. He's a student here and he will tell you all the facts.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Just about.

Cmin(maj7) is based on jazz minor, i.e. a minor scale with b3, natural 6 and natural 7. It harmonises differently to dorian/aeolian/phyrgian, which all can be derived from the major scale.

The diminished chords come from either a whole/half tone diminished scale, or a half/whole tone diminished scale, in jazz anyway.

Etc.

looks like a melodic minor.......ascending anyhoo.....are you building chords based on modes from that too

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff, do you know when the next one week intensive class will be (don't have the scratch for the March date)?

I'll drive down and save the money on the plane and rental car. Get a roach motel. Then spend a week doing some powerful learning.

And yes, I'll bring you some ribs.

EVERY motel in Florida is a roach motel (bada BIIINGG). The next one is in September but I don't know the dates (I just work here). You should email Vicky at [email protected] to find out the dates. All I can tell you is that you will go home a totally different man relating to your bass. I HAVE to make this happen for guys who come here because I have such a big mouth that I have painted myself into a corner. It is "put up or shut up" for a guy like me.

 

[JeffBerlin]

OK, Jeff. Here's a question-the sheer amount of time I've been logging on TB has made me think of this. You've got at least as busy of a life as I have-between Belmont, private students, gigs and "life stuff" I'm looking at 80 hours a week before I can even look at my own musical growth. In my case I'm then forced to choose between Electric and Jazz or Classical Upright Bass study/practice. How do you keep motivated and working on your own music, music business, and agenda with a really limited amount of time? Do you have any strategies you've come across to help you stay "on target"?

Hi Roy. In my case, I love it so much that I always want to know something that I don't already know. During the lesser motivated times, I just push myself, just no so hard. But I still push to practice.

I have a full day. I tour the world, I compose music, I do clinics, i have two sons, I have a school, I record, I practice, I sometimes go to the gym, and I write to you guys. How do I do it? I don't know! I just do it. The moment that I am done with this comment, I am running downstairs to my car and I am off to record the Ravel piece, the last piece that I will have on my new CD when it comes out in a month or so. Then I am back to the school, and then I am home with my sons.
What can I tell you- I just find the time because each thing requires attention. I have no choice. I even find time to watch "House" and Burn Notice". Not much time for women because they (rightfully so) want time out of your day and I don't have it to give. Therefore, the internet and I are intimate because.................. well, never mind!

 

[Jim Campbell]

Hi Roy. In my case, I love it so much that I always want to know something that I don't already know. During the lesser motivated times, I just push myself, just no so hard. But I still push to practice.

I have a full day. I tour the world, I compose music, I do clinics, i have two sons, I have a school, I record, I practice, I sometimes go to the gym, and I write to you guys. How do I do it? I don't know! I just do it. The moment that I am done with this comment, I am running downstairs to my car and I am off to record the Ravel piece, the last piece that I will have on my new CD when it comes out in a month or so. Then I am back to the school, and then I am home with my sons.
What can I tell you- I just find the time because each thing requires attention. I have no choice. I even find time to watch "House" and Burn Notice". Not much time for women because they (rightfully so) want time out of your day and I don't have it to give. Therefore, the internet and I are intimate because.................. well, never mind!

break a leg,kid

 

[chadhargis]

EVERY motel in Florida is a roach motel (bada BIIINGG).

Well, Florida has a nice name for them, palmetto bugs. Suckers are so big you can't squish them or you'll end up with goo all over the place. I'll pack a can of Raid.

I'll shoot Vicky an email and see if dates have been firmed up so I can start doing my sell job on the wife.

You have to blast down my door asking questions, asking who and how to do next if you want to study with me.

You and I will get along famously. I'm the guy who always asks questions. The more answers I get the more questions I seem to have.

All I can tell you is that you will go home a totally different man relating to your bass. I HAVE to make this happen for guys who come here because I have such a big mouth that I have painted myself into a corner.

Something tells me you have no issues getting yourself out of said corner. It's been said you don't fully know something until you can teach it. I venture to guess, spending a few hours with someone of your mastery would dramatically change how I relate to the bass, much less an entire week.

Often times as teachers, the things we take for granted because they are so simple, are the very things that open the eyes of our students. We'd never think to tell them, but seeing us do it will spur a question or give them enough information to try a different approach to something.

I even find time to watch "House"

I don't watch much TV outside of sports, but House is fantastic. Hugh Laurie is fantastic (and a musician and motorcycle rider to boot). I'm one of these sick individuals who can appreciate a guy like Dr. House. Someone who shoots straight with you. I respect that type of person.


Have fun in the studio. I'd tell you good luck, but people who are good don't need luck.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Gotta separate from Roy on this one. Literature to teach students outweight the anthems that represent them. Teen Town is a cliche. It is THE anthem for bass players world-wide, but I can think of a lot better things to show bass players if I charge them money to learn from me. Lots of guys can play Teen Town and don't need a teacher to learn it. Besides, it isn't that great of a piece of music harmonically speaking as compared to the zillion other works that are far, far richer in harmonic content and which fall into a far more meaningful academic lesson. Sorry Roy. Can we still have sex this weekend?

You never forget your first crush, Jeff

 

[chadhargis]

Ok...the bar-b-que discussion caused an uproar...can't wait to see what this spawns.

 

[Roy Vogt]

OK, Chad.....Psych!
Hey, don't panic-it's just a "Bromance"....