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Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3
- Thread starter john turner
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well someone has to teach these kids how to hang off a wire by their nuts and play without killing themselves!
so i know you're going to ignore this and make veiled references elsewhere to ignore me, but i'm not seeing what's so bad about performance classes in conjunction with a solid musical education in jazz. sooner or later, if you want to be serious about a music career, you have to perform. i have seen so many kids that can really play but they look and carry themselves horribly on gigs. they show up unshaved and unkempt, they talk and doodle on their instruments in between songs, they can't front a band and get the audience into what they're doing, they look miserable, and they generally give an overall miserable impression to the crowd.
so while they're getting a solid musical education, let's teach them a little about stage etiquette and performing to an audience? i don't see the harm in it, only good. of course it can't happen without the music, but i sure see a lot of kids coming up who would be the better for it.
Do you mean outside of drumm lessons?
A seat in the harmony class, the ear training class and 5 days of ensembles, just like the bass players, guitarists and keyboardists.
You guys should learn about music just like the melodic guys do. I think that it would be great to point out that the head of the entire arranging program at Berklee in the 1970's was a drummer named Ted Pease.
At least you can get a sampling of music away from your instrument. It helps you to understand musical facts that don't just originate from your instrument. Besides, without a good ear, nobody can play well.
Roy Vogt
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- Sep 20, 2000
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I'm fortunate in the sense that I have a relatively small department. A lot of times the curriculum evolves because I see a deficiency in a student. For the most part, I don't use a Cookie Cutter approach after the player knows his way around an instrument.
Case in point:
We might spend a large amount of study in one semester on a Parker tune. The student will learn the Head (melody) , study and be able to play Ron Carter's bass line from the Jamey Aebersold play-alongs, then write out and improvise their own walking lines, then do my 3-5-R-7 voice-leading exercise, then study and learn to play Parker's solo (NOT at Parker's tempo), then etudes by David Baker on the changes, then ii-V patterns through the progression, etc. This can take a significant part of the semester. The plus is that learning to negotiate all of those etudes prepares the student to not be intimidated by reading anything an arranger will throw at them as well as feeding their subconscious some vocabulary that will come back differently when they play. It's great that I have a smaller student body so I can see where people are and if they "get it". I'm in awe of Rich Appleman and the Berklee Bass Department-they have hundreds of students to deal with from virtuosos to rank beginners. They don't have the luxury I have here.
If I'm teaching Double Bass I have to deal with Methods (I choose Vance and Rufus Reid), Etudes (any one of a dozen Classical sources along with books by Pattitucci, Coolman, et. al), transcriptions (Paul Chambers, Scott LaFaro, Eddie Gomez, Ron Carter), Classical Solo literature (from Dragonetti and Marcello to 20th Century pieces), Standard tunes et. al. I guess a case could be made that I'm "all over the map" here as well, but I know of no other way to communicate all of this. I'm teaching as I have been taught, probably not unlike they way you learned violin as a young boy. It seems like the model in the West for learning any instrument is method/etude/literature. When I'm teaching Electric Bass that's the model I tend to use as well.
Lead the way Bill. You are in the minority because you are expecting higher academic results from your students.
Roy Vogt
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- Sep 20, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
I do have an Electric Bass Ensemble-there are generally 6-8 students in there playing music I write and arrange along with a drummer and percussionist. This semester we're playing songs from the SMV CD Thunder. Everything's written out-no TAB in my (or any other) ensemble. Ironically, it's a training ensemble and the material is harder than most of what they'll deal with in the Commercial Ensembles.
I tend to use curriculum totally independent of the student's Ensemble. It's a given that they should be able to play the Ensemble material. I want to challenge them far more than their Ensemble does.
I tend to use curriculum totally independent of the student's Ensemble. It's a given that they should be able to play the Ensemble material. I want to challenge them far more than their Ensemble does.
I started with him a couple of years ago, but had to take some time off because I damaged my right hand (much better now!), and I was just about to start again when he got sick.
We were working on approach notes on arpeggios, had just got to Cmaj7+5 (approaching each note from one note below and one above), I really looked forward to the lessons because a) I would get to hear him on the tape! and b) because I knew that I was going to be playing for hours on the exercises!
I received an email from his daughter saying that he went through a lot of stuff with her before he passed away, and that she would be continuing his lessons. So I plan to keep going with them.
Roy Vogt -I'm fortunate in the sense that I have a relatively small department. A lot of times the curriculum evolves because I see a deficiency in a student. For the most part, I don't use a Cookie Cutter approach after the player knows his way around an instrument.
JEFF - I agree! Occasionally, a guy comes to The Players School of Music and doesn't do their work. It is most definitely a deficiency in the student, partly to blame on the teachers or the learning environment that doesn't insist that they learn music well. Good for you for standing for musical quality.
Roy Vogt - Case in point:
We might spend a large amount of study in one semester on a Parker tune. The student will learn the Head (melody) , study and be able to play Ron Carter's bass line from the Jamey Aebersold play-alongs, then write out and improvise their own walking lines, then do my 3-5-R-7 voice-leading exercise, then study and learn to play Parker's solo (NOT at Parker's tempo), then etudes by David Baker on the changes, then ii-V patterns through the progression, etc. This can take a significant part of the semester. The plus is that learning to negotiate all of those etudes prepares the student to not be intimidated by reading anything an arranger will throw at them as well as feeding their subconscious some vocabulary that will come back differently when they play. It's great that I have a smaller student body so I can see where people are and if they "get it". I'm in awe of Rich Appleman and the Berklee Bass Department-they have hundreds of students to deal with from virtuosos to rank beginners. They don't have the luxury I have here.
JEFF- We are a small school as well. I would suggest that you write out yourself a few walking lines and give them to the students instead of asking them to write them. Frankly, it takes a long time to have the capability to be able to even know what a good walking line is. What I do is this; I write out a basic line and have the student read it, even play it. What happens is that they get a first hand experience of playing something that is perfect (they can't create something perfect, not for a while). Then we move to another tune and, using the same principles, I give them another line to that tune. And so on, and so on. At the end of 10 weeks, I have guys who couldn't read a note, not one single note, and now they are reading, improvizing, and soloing over jazz tunes. Without fail! Ever!
Try it and tell me if your guys don't play even better after a few weeks. Don't give most guys the responsibility to come up with music when, in fact, they are in the middle of trying to figure it out. Further, I never assign learning melodies because they are sometimes not harmonically meaningful to learn. They are compositions which means that they are art. It is sometimes hard to learn a principle when it is taught from an artful place. Rather, it is better to learn a melodic element if the element is meant to enlighten in regards to tonality from academically improved sources.
Thoughts?
JEFF - I agree! Occasionally, a guy comes to The Players School of Music and doesn't do their work. It is most definitely a deficiency in the student, partly to blame on the teachers or the learning environment that doesn't insist that they learn music well. Good for you for standing for musical quality.
Roy Vogt - Case in point:
We might spend a large amount of study in one semester on a Parker tune. The student will learn the Head (melody) , study and be able to play Ron Carter's bass line from the Jamey Aebersold play-alongs, then write out and improvise their own walking lines, then do my 3-5-R-7 voice-leading exercise, then study and learn to play Parker's solo (NOT at Parker's tempo), then etudes by David Baker on the changes, then ii-V patterns through the progression, etc. This can take a significant part of the semester. The plus is that learning to negotiate all of those etudes prepares the student to not be intimidated by reading anything an arranger will throw at them as well as feeding their subconscious some vocabulary that will come back differently when they play. It's great that I have a smaller student body so I can see where people are and if they "get it". I'm in awe of Rich Appleman and the Berklee Bass Department-they have hundreds of students to deal with from virtuosos to rank beginners. They don't have the luxury I have here.
JEFF- We are a small school as well. I would suggest that you write out yourself a few walking lines and give them to the students instead of asking them to write them. Frankly, it takes a long time to have the capability to be able to even know what a good walking line is. What I do is this; I write out a basic line and have the student read it, even play it. What happens is that they get a first hand experience of playing something that is perfect (they can't create something perfect, not for a while). Then we move to another tune and, using the same principles, I give them another line to that tune. And so on, and so on. At the end of 10 weeks, I have guys who couldn't read a note, not one single note, and now they are reading, improvizing, and soloing over jazz tunes. Without fail! Ever!
Try it and tell me if your guys don't play even better after a few weeks. Don't give most guys the responsibility to come up with music when, in fact, they are in the middle of trying to figure it out. Further, I never assign learning melodies because they are sometimes not harmonically meaningful to learn. They are compositions which means that they are art. It is sometimes hard to learn a principle when it is taught from an artful place. Rather, it is better to learn a melodic element if the element is meant to enlighten in regards to tonality from academically improved sources.
Thoughts?
I know those approach lessons. I have a bunch of them and have even ran with his thoughts and came up with a few myself.
Any chance of seeing some of those? (hope I'm not being too rude asking, apologies if I am!) I'm just getting back into playing these now, Charlie had me write out some solos based on the ideas so the original 5 lines plus a solo would keep me busy for ages! I can only assume that the lessons intensify as they progress, but I'm really looking forward to them!
JEFF: I will let you know what I find out about the Nashville Jazz Workshop. My goal there is to get MUSIC education. I have a bass teacher, and from what I understand, a very good one. I'm liking what I'm seeing after one lesson, but honestly I don't know enough to know. Know what I mean?
Demystifying music education all boils down to two things for me...where to start, and where to go next.
I'm really torn, because I am very academic and logical. I love to learn, and I love to know "why" something is the way it is. Music education is interesting to me and I can see how it would make it easier for me to become a better player.
On the other hand, I see people who were born in the mountains. had little to any regular schooling, and no music training of any kind play a violin (yes, I know, it's a fiddle if you are from Tennessee.
) like a master. Or like the gentleman who mentioned Bela Fleck going to Africa. I've seen shows where the tribe is playing instruments I don't even recognize. They have never had any formal music training, yet they are playing music. Did ancient Aboriginal tribes send their kids off to music school to learn how to play a didgeridoo? Most likely no.
This is where, being a complete newbie trying to wrap my brain around such a huge subject as music education, I get a little lost. I know what you mean when you say, "teach music" versus "performance". As a newbie, I also want to have a "quick win" every now and then. I've seen lots of people say, "play with others" as soon as you can, but how can you play with someone if you don't know how to play?
Looking at the great musicians, I see one thing that is pretty common in most cases. They grew up around music. Most great musicians had someone who motivated and inspired them. Not someone being paid to teach, but someone who does it for the love of music. They want to see another musician out there. They recognize drive, desire, talent in a person and want to foster it. Without someone like that in your life, I think the task of becoming a great musician is made exponentially more difficult. It can be done, but you have to work harder and make more mistakes and suffer more setbacks along the way.
I'm just beginning my journey to become a musician, but if I'm lucky, I will find that mentor who is willing to jam with me on the weekends even though I butcher every song. That person who loves music so much they never want to stop playing or talking about music. Like I said earlier, even hearing stories about playing can aid you in your learning, you never know what you're going to pick up.
Demystifying music education all boils down to two things for me...where to start, and where to go next.
I'm really torn, because I am very academic and logical. I love to learn, and I love to know "why" something is the way it is. Music education is interesting to me and I can see how it would make it easier for me to become a better player.
On the other hand, I see people who were born in the mountains. had little to any regular schooling, and no music training of any kind play a violin (yes, I know, it's a fiddle if you are from Tennessee.
) like a master. Or like the gentleman who mentioned Bela Fleck going to Africa. I've seen shows where the tribe is playing instruments I don't even recognize. They have never had any formal music training, yet they are playing music. Did ancient Aboriginal tribes send their kids off to music school to learn how to play a didgeridoo? Most likely no.This is where, being a complete newbie trying to wrap my brain around such a huge subject as music education, I get a little lost. I know what you mean when you say, "teach music" versus "performance". As a newbie, I also want to have a "quick win" every now and then. I've seen lots of people say, "play with others" as soon as you can, but how can you play with someone if you don't know how to play?
Looking at the great musicians, I see one thing that is pretty common in most cases. They grew up around music. Most great musicians had someone who motivated and inspired them. Not someone being paid to teach, but someone who does it for the love of music. They want to see another musician out there. They recognize drive, desire, talent in a person and want to foster it. Without someone like that in your life, I think the task of becoming a great musician is made exponentially more difficult. It can be done, but you have to work harder and make more mistakes and suffer more setbacks along the way.
I'm just beginning my journey to become a musician, but if I'm lucky, I will find that mentor who is willing to jam with me on the weekends even though I butcher every song. That person who loves music so much they never want to stop playing or talking about music. Like I said earlier, even hearing stories about playing can aid you in your learning, you never know what you're going to pick up.
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
I'll give this a shot. I typically have the student study what makes Ron Carter's line work, give them some basic walking patterns and then turn them loose to write the line. Then, we look at it and if I see ways they can improve it we'll change what we need to. Then I'll have them rewrite the line.
Learning the melody is, for me, on the par with reading a Trombone etude. It's playing the instrument in a way that it was not designed to be played. It's also a way to "overtrain" reading skills (I think the best place for a player to be is only using 20% of his abilities in most work situations). I never teach a melody without teaching chord qualities, approach tones, etc. The "why" is as important as the "what".
BTW, I absolutely LOVE playing Old School Fusion with Stan Lassiter and Dale Armstrong. They are my Danny Gottleib and Richard Drexler (only a lot louder
)-we've been playing really challenging Music off and on for 28 years and can complete each other's sentences. It's big Fun!Two from below, two from above on each .C.T. then three from either below or above, and one from below or above. Jerry Bergonzi took Charlie's lessons and ran with them as well.
JEFF: I will let you know what I find out about the Nashville Jazz Workshop. My goal there is to get MUSIC education. I have a bass teacher, and from what I understand, a very good one. I'm liking what I'm seeing after one lesson, but honestly I don't know enough to know. Know what I mean?
Demystifying music education all boils down to two things for me...where to start, and where to go next.
I'm really torn, because I am very academic and logical. I love to learn, and I love to know "why" something is the way it is. Music education is interesting to me and I can see how it would make it easier for me to become a better player.
On the other hand, I see people who were born in the mountains. had little to any regular schooling, and no music training of any kind play a violin (yes, I know, it's a fiddle if you are from Tennessee.
This is where, being a complete newbie trying to wrap my brain around such a huge subject as music education, I get a little lost. I know what you mean when you say, "teach music" versus "performance". As a newbie, I also want to have a "quick win" every now and then. I've seen lots of people say, "play with others" as soon as you can, but how can you play with someone if you don't know how to play?
Looking at the great musicians, I see one thing that is pretty common in most cases. They grew up around music. Most great musicians had someone who motivated and inspired them. Not someone being paid to teach, but someone who does it for the love of music. They want to see another musician out there. They recognize drive, desire, talent in a person and want to foster it. Without someone like that in your life, I think the task of becoming a great musician is made exponentially more difficult. It can be done, but you have to work harder and make more mistakes and suffer more setbacks along the way.
I'm just beginning my journey to become a musician, but if I'm lucky, I will find that mentor who is willing to jam with me on the weekends even though I butcher every song. That person who loves music so much they never want to stop playing or talking about music. Like I said earlier, even hearing stories about playing can aid you in your learning, you never know what you're going to pick up.
The only thing to consider in the mish mosh of learning is one single thing ONLY! If you seek out an academic help, then the teacher has GOT to teach you music and how to learn and play it. Forget Africa, the Tennessee mountais, forget it all. These things fall into the "Whatever You Wish To Investigate" area which is universally huge and unending.
But if you pay for a lesson, then the approach (if done correctly) should be lean, narrow, to-the-point, representing tonality, harmony, notes, rthythms reading, playing jazz for academic purposes only, and finally, and maybe the most important thing of all, the let the teacher run the show, if, hopefull, they know what they are doing. It isn't your job to know if they are doing weel or teaching you "The Good Stuff". And this is the problem with music ed. To do well in it, you have to trust completely your teacher that they are giving you what you need. You won't know this for a little while, when after a while, you either do or don't see an improvement in relating to your instrument in broader musical ways. THIS is the bitch of academics, expecially today, when so many teachers don't stand for music when they teach.
That's the coolest thing about music, I saw the article and thought "I know that!" Bring it on. Then the descending ones with leaps came in, I stopped dead in my tracks.
Will add those to the list, just bought myself some more time with the exercises! Thanks for those!
Hi Roy,
I've read in a few posts that you use the David Baker etudes book (for vol. 5 and 6 of Aebersold play-along?), I'm curious about it! Is it etudes based on Parker solos or based on the changes? I searched for it on the net but can't find it anywhere!
edit. Just saw that it's based on the changes, sorry!
Hi all
As you know I am currently studing here at the school with Jeff. I've had great lessons here with Jeff, always pushing me, but today's absolutely fried my brain. Completely.
It lasted only a few minutes and I have at least a few months work to do - all from a single page, with 4 bars of written music!
It's a Charlie Banacos lesson, but Jeff has added a twist and is making me take these particular lines through all 12 keys and 10 different chord scales (major, minor, dominant 7, m7b5, dim7, aug7, aug maj7, min maj7, lydian7, lydian7 #4).
I'll see you all in a couple of months, I guess....I'll be in the woodshed! Awesome.
As you know I am currently studing here at the school with Jeff. I've had great lessons here with Jeff, always pushing me, but today's absolutely fried my brain. Completely.
It lasted only a few minutes and I have at least a few months work to do - all from a single page, with 4 bars of written music!
It's a Charlie Banacos lesson, but Jeff has added a twist and is making me take these particular lines through all 12 keys and 10 different chord scales (major, minor, dominant 7, m7b5, dim7, aug7, aug maj7, min maj7, lydian7, lydian7 #4).
I'll see you all in a couple of months, I guess....I'll be in the woodshed! Awesome.
I reckon Jeff knows you're upto it then Pete! Kudos! Hope it's all going well mate, take care...
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