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Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

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I thought to snip your one sentence and comment about it!

You are the Boss! Your lesson room is your domain! Anybody who goes to study with you can tell their goals and how they are doing with the studies that you assign to them. Everything else is on you! You make the decisions about what they learn and if they don't like it, then they shouldn't be paying for lessons with you.

I'ver heard this before; some teachers wish to make things smooth and not upset their clients. I appreciate the sentiment! But, they make us pay taxes and they make us stop at red lights, and they make us do a whole lot more. But nobody, not one guy reading this was forced into playing an electric bass. Your students chose to play and it is your way or the highway as far as I am concerned. Of course one can convey this truth with some kindness and patience. But, this is how it goes for me when anybody pays me money to enlighten them about music.

Frankly, my idea is to weed out the less serious guys from the more serious ones. Everybody is entitled to be entertained with music. But I am not here for this even if other teachers are! And so, all I ask is that the guys do what I ask them to do, even if they never read a note in their lives nor learned where a G is on the neck, let's say! Being new isn't a call for removal! Trying to run the show, a show that they know nothing about is, at least with me!

+1 I have a studio of young players who are trusting me to help them become professional musicians and paying a premium price to do so at a Private College. If I don't impart the "good stuff" it's Musical Malpractice.
 
Jeff, as a bass player who solos a lot, I was wondering what your views are on how other musicians "comp" or support during bass solos. (I'm talking about when there is no other "bass" instrument because I know you've recorded together with an upright player.)

Are there things that you find frustrating? Or are there certain things that you like? Do you commuicate with the other musicians beforehand how you'd like them to back you up while you solo?

Thanks in advance!

For me, everybody who plays behind my solos already know how to comp and so there is nothing really to discuss. My only requirement goes to any drummer who I play with; NEVER go to the high-hat and play it when I solo. Ever!
 
Nope, let them learn the notes at the same time. Put some fingerings and positions in, that's legal. But then let them find the notes and find one OTHER place to play it....;)

Agreed 1000%. The beauty of these exercises is finding your own way, out of time. If you do them all in every key in accordance with the cycle, you will cover the entire fretboard. These simple and not so simple exercises take a lot of time, and in the end will increase your musical vocabulary greatly!
 
+1 I have a studio of young players who are trusting me to help them become professional musicians and paying a premium price to do so at a Private College. If I don't impart the "good stuff" it's Musical Malpractice.

I always felt that if the music education system was regulated as, say, the medical educational field is, then a lot of guys would be prosecuted for malpractice!

Teach them content because few guys seems to ever bring up the idea of it! It is all academic chops, tablature, tapping, and technique lessons. Little is ever said about music! Keep teaching "The Good Stuff" Roy and don't let anybody else run your class for you. Participate? Yes! Call the shots? *(@$#*(@&#^$*(@#$%@#*(&$^@#(*@$#%)*#
 
Agreed 1000%. The beauty of these exercises is finding your own way, out of time. If you do them all in every key in accordance with the cycle, you will cover the entire fretboard. These simple and not so simple exercises take a lot of time, and in the end will increase your musical vocabulary greatly!

Exactly! The idea of exercises is to regard them, represent them, and review them, not perform them. Perfomance always automatically comes once one has learned well their music. Always!
 
Right, first post on these forums....

I have essentially spent the last 20 years strumming the same chords on guitar without any direction. This means that the level of my playing has stayed the same for the majority of that time.

In the last year I found the Bass, this occurred about the same time as I started listening to more sophisticated music - Miles Davis, etc.

The posts here made me rage. I wasted 20 years, the oft stated JB philosophy, when boldly set down, is so obviously a fundamental truth, I have to wonder why I bought all those guitar magazines and tab books - even after I failed to improve as a player - great marketing I suppose.

I'm getting my head around the Bass Clef once more, (played piano in school for a short while - how I wish I never walked away from that now) and then I suppose the next step is searching for a tutor.

And now to the point....... (eventually I know)

Many of the teachers/tutors here in the UK have Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music (ABRSM) Grade 5 Theory. Is this any form of a guide towards the good stuff, or is it just another certificate hanging on the wall?

Its hard to find someone that wants to teach 'good stuff' rather than all the traps Jeff mentions so often.
 
Right, first post on these forums....

I have essentially spent the last 20 years strumming the same chords on guitar without any direction. This means that the level of my playing has stayed the same for the majority of that time.

In the last year I found the Bass, this occurred about the same time as I started listening to more sophisticated music - Miles Davis, etc.

The posts here made me rage. I wasted 20 years, the oft stated JB philosophy, when boldly set down, is so obviously a fundamental truth, I have to wonder why I bought all those guitar magazines and tab books - even after I failed to improve as a player - great marketing I suppose.

I'm getting my head around the Bass Clef once more, (played piano in school for a short while - how I wish I never walked away from that now) and then I suppose the next step is searching for a tutor.

And now to the point....... (eventually I know)

Many of the teachers/tutors here in the UK have Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music (ABRSM) Grade 5 Theory. Is this any form of a guide towards the good stuff, or is it just another certificate hanging on the wall?

Its hard to find someone that wants to teach 'good stuff' rather than all the traps Jeff mentions so often.

Hi Matt grade 5 is O level standard or GSCE or what ever they call it now. Its a good basic understanding.
Grade 8 is the highest and is again great foundation to build on.
I would have to check it out but there used to be teachers that would work with you and put you forward for these exams. Music teachers are what you want, not really bass teachers.
Music teachers will teach you music, leaving you free to find a bass teacher for things bass related. If that Music teacher is piano based even better to learn and understand music principals. I'll see what i can find later for you.:)
 
Chad - If you want it, PM me your e mail address and the litmus test will be in full swing!

Ed

Got it. Read it. Looked at the exercises.

I will agree that the fingering would be helpful. I honestly think I can play the exercises, slowly at first, as they don't look overly difficult unless there is some sort of fingering trickery that I don't know yet.

I can't wait to give them a try, and it will also help me with my reading and learning the fretboard.

Good stuff.
 
MattyDempsey - Right, first post on these forums....

I have essentially spent the last 20 years strumming the same chords on guitar without any direction. This means that the level of my playing has stayed the same for the majority of that time.
The posts here made me rage. I wasted 20 years, the oft stated JB philosophy, when boldly set down, is so obviously a fundamental truth, I have to wonder why I bought all those guitar magazines and tab books - even after I failed to improve as a player - great marketing I suppose.

Jeff - I have gone up against practically the entire music academic industry single handedly for over 2 decades, anticipating that players who ignored the solid suggestion to learn music well, were going to one day be sorry that they didn't learn how to play better when they had the chance. You are one guy out of the loads of guys who have discovered that the advice that the music magazines, schools and well known players were offering weren't such great practicing suggestions in the first place. And yes! Their marketing was top notch and it greatly outweighed my single handed crusade for players to learn well and learn good material. It just goes to show that most guys really weren't into music, even if they were into music entertainment. Or they were suckered by well intended player/teachers who really didn't know anything about music, except how to play the bass in an excellent manner.

MattyDempsey - Many of the teachers/tutors here in the UK have Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music (ABRSM) Grade 5 Theory. Is this any form of a guide towards the good stuff, or is it just another certificate hanging on the wall?

Its hard to find someone that wants to teach 'good stuff' rather than all the traps Jeff mentions so often.

Jeff - I know that it is hard to find someone that wants to teach "the Good Stuff". England is not an easy place to find a good academic education pertaining to a guy who simply wishes to play better. England's educational particulars are generally much more focused on performance or art, rather than learning musical content for its own sake. You need to find a great jazz teacher or school (if there is one) because jazz is a music that insists that you know the content before you can play it. This means that you have to rise to the occasion, even if the occasion is simple material. It doesn't matter, as long as it is meaningful, content wise.

If you wish to learn blues, rock or other popular styles, then buy the CD's and listen and imitate them, just like every great blues or rock player has done. Don't go to school to learn these styles (but I think that you already know how I feel about this).

Ronnie Scott's is a great place to locate somebody like this if you live in London. Or, look for a great local jazz guitarist or pianist to teach you some musical content. You need to do some interviewing and asking around because, what you are looking for is there, but it is just really hard to find. Let me know how this turns out for you.
 
Got it. Read it. Looked at the exercises.

I will agree that the fingering would be helpful. I honestly think I can play the exercises, slowly at first, as they don't look overly difficult unless there is some sort of fingering trickery that I don't know yet.

I can't wait to give them a try, and it will also help me with my reading and learning the fretboard.

Good stuff.

Again, figuring out the fingerings is a big part of the "meat" of these exercises (tofu for you vegetarians!). The key is to play them slowly, and get the sound into your ears. The other big part of this is writing them out in all keys, and going through each in accordance with the cycle. As you go through, you do each chord type this way as well (min, min7, etc.). Your ability to recognize chords in written music will skyrocket, and reading will become easier for you. Adam can help you with this.

Take your time. This isn't a race. Just try to develop naturally, and the doors will open for you!
 
Good advice, but as a beginner in both music and bass, the challenge to me is knowing exactly what you just said. Writing them out in all keys? I'm lost there. If I'm reading the music right, and I'm probably not, it would appear that all the exercises are written in the key of C major (could be A minor I suppose...just know there are no # or b marks, so it has to be one of the two....sorry...I'm REALLY new at this).

Writing in all the keys will be a great help, since I obviously don't posses great reading skill.

Adam is moving me along pretty well. He gave me his explanation of the mode exercise he gave me, and it made good sense. The next step he's going to have me do looks a LOT like the exercise you sent me. Adam told me, "Once you are able to play them all perfectly from memory from the same starting note, then you will practice connecting them all together in order over the entire range of the fingerboard."

The deeper I get into music and playing, the deeper I want to dig. Everything is linked to something else. Find one answer, and all it reveals is more questions. BEAUTIFUL! It's like a never ending puzzle.
 
Good advice, but as a beginner in both music and bass, the challenge to me is knowing exactly what you just said. Writing them out in all keys? I'm lost there. If I'm reading the music right, and I'm probably not, it would appear that all the exercises are written in the key of C major (could be A minor I suppose...just know there are no # or b marks, so it has to be one of the two....sorry...I'm REALLY new at this).

Writing in all the keys will be a great help, since I obviously don't posses great reading skill.

Adam is moving me along pretty well. He gave me his explanation of the mode exercise he gave me, and it made good sense. The next step he's going to have me do looks a LOT like the exercise you sent me. Adam told me, "Once you are able to play them all perfectly from memory from the same starting note, then you will practice connecting them all together in order over the entire range of the fingerboard."

The deeper I get into music and playing, the deeper I want to dig. Everything is linked to something else. Find one answer, and all it reveals is more questions. BEAUTIFUL! It's like a never ending puzzle.

If you are a beginner, then find a teacher who will teach you music. If you study with anybody at any time and music is not the center of what it is that you paid money to learn, then you are being entertained, not taught. No matter the environment, the bottom line is this, a person owns a bass and wishes to make music come out of it. One doesn't need a lot of deep thinking to figure out that musical content will help you to do this. Content! Go to anybody who teaches content and you will all improve 100% on your instruments. Content! Content! Musical studies! Good luck! P.S. Don't memorize anything! Practice it!
 
Don't memorize anything! Practice it!

That's exactly what I do. What makes things "stick" for me is two fold. 1) Repetition, which comes from practice, and 2) Logic, which means I understand what I'm doing, not just blindly doing something because someone told me to.

I like for things to have meaning. For example, it bugged the crap out of me till I discovered (through my own study) what the dots on the fretboard were for. I knew they were visual queues, but why 3, 5, 7, 9, etc.....What two dots on 12? Once I learned what they were for, I had an "AH HA!" moment and like dominoes, lots of things fell into place just from learning that one TINY, insignificant piece of knowledge. It took my sitting down and charting out all the natural notes on the fretboard to finally make sense of it all. Color coded, of course. :)
 
That's exactly what I do. What makes things "stick" for me is two fold. 1) Repetition, which comes from practice, and 2) Logic, which means I understand what I'm doing, not just blindly doing something because someone told me to.

I like for things to have meaning. For example, it bugged the crap out of me till I discovered (through my own study) what the dots on the fretboard were for. I knew they were visual queues, but why 3, 5, 7, 9, etc.....What two dots on 12? Once I learned what they were for, I had an "AH HA!" moment and like dominoes, lots of things fell into place just from learning that one TINY, insignificant piece of knowledge.

You seem like a really beginner player. So make sure thatyour teacher provides reading music in every lesson. Make sure that nothing related to Art comes into your instruction. You don't need it because you already know what you want to sound like. Styles, groove, metronomes, they all are not for you nor other guys trying to put musical elements together. Plus, these things are not really good academic principles. Just make sure that it is music that you are working on. Everything else falls into place as you de-mystify your instrument and music itself. it is a 100% guaranteed winner for you. Good luck!
 
Bingo! Music is this way at EVERY level!

It certainly is, especially for beginners, because music is something not known to beginners. It is a brand new concept, and it is way easier to improve from a standing still position than from a more advanced one. Why? Because the more advanced players have learned some unnecessary habits and beliefs about how to play. But, new players are PERFECT vessels to fill with great musical content. Therefore many of you guys are perfect vessels as well.
 
I am a "perfect vessel" for sure. Never had a music class. Never played music. Know nothing about music other than what I've dug up on my own.

I woke up one day, after years of saying, "Someday I am going to learn to play", and decided THIS was "someday". Off I went. 38 years old, trying to learn to play as good as some 6 year olds.

It's going to be a long journey....
 
Right, first post on these forums....

I have essentially spent the last 20 years strumming the same chords on guitar without any direction. This means that the level of my playing has stayed the same for the majority of that time.

In the last year I found the Bass, this occurred about the same time as I started listening to more sophisticated music - Miles Davis, etc.

The posts here made me rage. I wasted 20 years, the oft stated JB philosophy, when boldly set down, is so obviously a fundamental truth, I have to wonder why I bought all those guitar magazines and tab books - even after I failed to improve as a player - great marketing I suppose.

I'm getting my head around the Bass Clef once more, (played piano in school for a short while - how I wish I never walked away from that now) and then I suppose the next step is searching for a tutor.

And now to the point....... (eventually I know)

Many of the teachers/tutors here in the UK have Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music (ABRSM) Grade 5 Theory. Is this any form of a guide towards the good stuff, or is it just another certificate hanging on the wall?

Its hard to find someone that wants to teach 'good stuff' rather than all the traps Jeff mentions so often.

I don't know how close you are to London, but I know three capable players I could refer you to.
Steve Lawson may or may not still be taking students, but he's definitely someone who could steer you in the right direction. You can find him on twitter at @stevelawson or Link Removed or on his website www.stevelawson.net
Laurence Cottle is someone who I believe may have studied with Jeff over at BIT. He's a pretty serious arranger these days and definitely knows music. I don't know if he has time to teach, but he may refer you to someone as well.
Freddie Thompson would also be a likely referral source. He's a pretty big deal commercially, but again may know a good teacher.
If Joe Hubbard is still in the UK he's an option, too. Jeff, wasn't he one of your students at one point?
A couple of the contributors for Bass Guitar Magazine (particularly the Jazz Chord/Solo guys) seem to have their heads on straight.
That's one of the fringe benefits I miss from not doing the Engelbert gig. We'd go there about once a year.
 
I thought to snip your one sentence and comment about it!

You are the Boss! Your lesson room is your domain! Anybody who goes to study with you can tell their goals and how they are doing with the studies that you assign to them. Everything else is on you! You make the decisions about what they learn and if they don't like it, then they shouldn't be paying for lessons with you.

I'ver heard this before; some teachers wish to make things smooth and not upset their clients. They try to lure guys into music. But, I don't! I take everyone seriously from the pure beginner upward, and deal with them as their level to learn, no rushing, and absolutely 100% permitting mistakes even if they come by the hundreds. But, I don't allow anyone who pays me to teach them and then decides what they wish to learn. If kids don't wish to learn good musical principles in a music lesson, then they shouldn't be studying with you.


There are few things more important to me than getting the 'good stuff' to kids. I've been observed teaching and discuss what I am doing with the full time faculty at the school I do the after school lessons. (rereading and editing it sounds curt don't read it that way please,)

I'm known for holding my ground, standing firm at the store I teach at (the bane of many teachers I know, and I see what is going on). Strings and horns teach, guitar and bass expected to pander.

I'm into 'my way or the highway' You MUST read, and the shear number of kids I teach to do this, and the guitar players can all read chords, leads me to wonder why every musician can't read! You must learn jazz. But l do spend a few moments helping a student work out a problem they may have in a pop tune if it's appropriate to their level, at the end of the lesson. (5 minutes no tabs)

Now one thing I will do is grab a concept from a song they say they want to play. There is a popular song out now that has a line utilizing thirds. I'll tell the student, that's thirds, before you can play that you have to be able to locate them on the neck. I'll write them out, explain major and minor and have them play it. They've got a fret board concept applicable to all music, written out. Also they've learned an important harmonic concept, what makes a chord 'quality' as opposed to that all pervasive R5 power chord that is all they've been bombarded with.

I understand what you mean by 'luring' and that seems like a politically correct way to teach (I'm not for it). I fully explain to parent and student what we will do (unfortunately one seems wealthy enough to send a third grader to me to learn music and another teacher for Disneyland lessons, the kid is doing fine with me, why?)

I'm also dealing with a range of ages from about 3rd grade up. (Some absolutely are not ready, some will sit through an entire lesson and read through all six strings and basic chords and can play).

I will sit with any student and if I've told them 10 times or more to move their hand position or correct something tell them I'm not getting angry I'm coaching them through a move, we'll sit here working until you get it or you're frustrated (that phrase actually usually releases frustration at least once)

Most lessons go well. One of the things I meant by what you quoted is the level of work done. I had to figure out every triad (on various string groups) then 6ths, 7ths, altered on up to 13th chords. Write them out in all inversions and keys and arrange chord melody with them. (by the way after lessons that same teacher would teach me vocal arranging to me etc, even rock, free, but the lessons were hardcore) It would be a pleasure to have a student come in and do that much work.

I think an issue with any kid now in any undertaking is finding ONE thing they will pursue and maybe even give something else up. Find something to do for an hour or four a day and WORK at it. If someone puts forth 6 months hard work in music, figures out they don't like playing, they will have gained appreciation of music, learned a lot. It is not a waste to quit or a failure. (I did it in drawing).

A basic goal I have for all of my students is to be able to play and understand Summertime, Autumn Leaves, a couple Blues, Footprints, Blue Bossa, the standard basic jazz repertoire of about 15 tunes.

Thanks for listening, posts are not the easiest ways to discuss such things, teaching in itself is fascinating. Regarding my first paragraph, nothing is more important in any teaching endeavors than improving what I'm doing.
 
There are few things more important to me than getting the 'good stuff' to kids. I've been observed teaching and discuss what I am doing with the full time faculty at the school I do the after school lessons. (rereading and editing it sounds curt don't read it that way please,)

I'm known for holding my ground, standing firm at the store I teach at (the bane of many teachers I know, and I see what is going on). Strings and horns teach, guitar and bass expected to pander.

I'm into 'my way or the highway' You MUST read, and the shear number of kids I teach to do this, and the guitar players can all read chords, leads me to wonder why every musician can't read! You must learn jazz. But l do spend a few moments helping a student work out a problem they may have in a pop tune if it's appropriate to their level, at the end of the lesson. (5 minutes no tabs)

Now one thing I will do is grab a concept from a song they say they want to play. There is a popular song out now that has a line utilizing thirds. I'll tell the student, that's thirds, before you can play that you have to be able to locate them on the neck. I'll write them out, explain major and minor and have them play it. They've got a fret board concept applicable to all music, written out. Also they've learned an important harmonic concept, what makes a chord 'quality' as opposed to that all pervasive R5 power chord that is all they've been bombarded with.

I understand what you mean by 'luring' and that seems like a politically correct way to teach (I'm not for it). I fully explain to parent and student what we will do (unfortunately one seems wealthy enough to send a third grader to me to learn music and another teacher for Disneyland lessons, the kid is doing fine with me, why?)

I'm also dealing with a range of ages from about 3rd grade up. (Some absolutely are not ready, some will sit through an entire lesson and read through all six strings and basic chords and can play).

I will sit with any student and if I've told them 10 times or more to move their hand position or correct something tell them I'm not getting angry I'm coaching them through a move, we'll sit here working until you get it or you're frustrated (that phrase actually usually releases frustration at least once)

Most lessons go well. One of the things I meant by what you quoted is the level of work done. I had to figure out every triad (on various string groups) then 6ths, 7ths, altered on up to 13th chords. Write them out in all inversions and keys and arrange chord melody with them. (by the way after lessons that same teacher would teach me vocal arranging to me etc, even rock, free, but the lessons were hardcore) It would be a pleasure to have a student come in and do that much work.

I think an issue with any kid now in any undertaking is finding ONE thing they will pursue and maybe even give something else up. Find something to do for an hour or four a day and WORK at it. If someone puts forth 6 months hard work in music, figures out they don't like playing, they will have gained appreciation of music, learned a lot. It is not a waste to quit or a failure. (I did it in drawing).

A basic goal I have for all of my students is to be able to play and understand Summertime, Autumn Leaves, a couple Blues, Footprints, Blue Bossa, the standard basic jazz repertoire of about 15 tunes.

Thanks for listening, posts are not the easiest ways to discuss such things, teaching in itself is fascinating. Regarding my first paragraph, nothing is more important in any teaching endeavors than improving what I'm doing.
it does make you wonder if those same parents would walk into a regular school and demand curriculum tailored to their kids personal preferences and aspirations.....i always thought that one thing music teachers should do with their students is to include the parents in the early part of the program and explain to them what and why you expect this or that to be done .....as a teen i tended to work on the stuff i wanted to play instead of the stuff i needed to learn.....and now i find i need a lot of catching up
 
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