Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff, if at all possible, I'll be coming down in September for the one week intensive. Until then, I believe I have a good teacher. Two lessons is not enough time to fully evaluate someone, especially when I don't have the knowledge to determine good from bad. Remember, I know NOTHING about music and wouldn't know it if it hit me in the face. I could be getting the "good stuff" and would never know it.

I've been told that my teacher is excellent, and there is no questioning his ability to play and his academic credentials as well.

I had one teacher for 6 weeks, and when I asked him about the Circle of Fifths, and he couldn't answer the question, then I asked about where he studied music and he said he never had, I began searching for a new teacher. That's when Adam Nitti was recommended to me (Roy too, but Adam was faster on the email reply....sorry Roy ). Tonight is my third lesson, and I've told Adam that I'm interested in learning music, not how to play songs. He knows I have a singing background, and am familiar with harmony. He gave me some ear training to do, and I demonstrated that I can "hear" notes and know how to reproduce them on my bass.

At this point, I still struggle to find, say, a F 3rd octave on my bass without counting frets and such. I'm also working on my reading, which is helping with that. Adam is having me work on fingering and other fundamentals.

I believe in time, we'll dive deeper into pure music after I've mastered the fundamentals. As I've said before, I don't understand 90% of the stuff that's discussed here. But it's all seeds I'm planting in my head. I have a good memory, and when I learn the missing bits of knowledge, it will start to fall into place.

I desperately need to learn music theory fundamentals. I've read quite a bit about it, but I always have questions. I have a lot of catching up to do. I'm convinced that spending a day or two just studying music and terminology would help me tremendously. Then I'd have a common language which would allow me to communicate with other musicians. Sadly, I don't know of any place that gives adult classes on music without enrolling in a full semester program. I'd gladly pay to take a one or two night a week class for a few weeks to get me up to speed.

If your teacher has a good rep, and if you need more time to evaluate your situation with him/her, then carry on. Basically you probably have asked the right questions. Are you reading some music at every lesson. Or, is he assigning your reading each time that you go? Because he should be doing this!

I truly recommend that you do not try to get up to speed! It is too hard to do this and oftne, those faster learning moments don't work out. Actually you should be slowing down because if it takes you, say four months instead of two to learn some new musical points, the idea is that you will still be saving yourself years and years of musical confusion by doing this. Really, there's no rush at all. In one year, if you learn correctly, you can buy and sell some of the guys on Talkbass who haven't done the work that you are about to do.

Don't rush anything! Slow dow, read your music (don't memorize anything.) Just practice in peace. The idea is not to look for results because you probably will be dissapointed. Results show up when they are good and ready to show up. But, without great reading, or musical exercises all at your own level to practice them, then the results are really going to be delayed.

Practice makes Perfect! Slow and Steady Wins the Race!

Aesop and those old time philosophers were right!

 

[chadhargis]

I want to learn to play music better. I am mediocore at best, but my friends who are not musicians think that I play well. I started playing music around age 18, which was 23 years ago. For the length of time I've been playing I should be a lot better.

I started with classical piano, then acoustic guitar, then singing, then electric guitar, then bass. I've even tried the recorder and harmonica. I'd love to learn cello and mandolin. I have a pretty solid foundation in music theory.

Kudos on your desire to get better. Learning should never stop, but given your description of yourself, I'd say you're better than mediocre. You play multiple instruments, have done so for over two decades, and have a firm grasp of music theory.

I do a fair bit of work with motorcyclists on the race track. I tell them that the fact that they have elevated their skills to the point that they want to be on a racetrack (equivalent to playing regular gigs as a musician) that they are among the top 15% or so of all riders.

I'd venture to guess that most people who own and occasionally play an instrument wouldn't be worthy to shine the shoes of a player like yourself. The fact that after 23 years you are still playing, and multiple instruments at that, versus having your equipment gather dust in a closet is a testament to your desire.

I wish I'd have started 23 years ago instead of 2 months.

 

[ccyork]

Dear CC - No disrespect intended here but have you sat down and read this entire thread from it beginning? I think your question would have been answered in many ways.
Good Luck! Don S

Hi Don,

Yes I've been reading the thread, but my biggest obstacles are:

1. access to a teacher

I guess that's it mostly. Am I doomed to not improve if I can't find a teacher? I need to be realistic...

 

[JeffBerlin]

What do you mean when you say this? Thanks.

Lessons are meant to show us facts that we don't already know. This is the reason for a lesson! If your teacher factualizes the material that you are practicing via reading (preferably trombone music) learning chord tones, and playing simply walking lines, then, maybe for the first time in your life, you will be touching your bass for factual reasons, perfect musical reasons, not art, not groove, but factual musical reasons. Facts rule in academic learning and so your teacher should be offering you only content meant to be represented on a bass guitar.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hi Don,

Yes I've been reading the thread, but my biggest obstacles are:

1. access to a teacher

I guess that's it mostly. Am I doomed to not improve if I can't find a teacher? I need to be realistic...

You certainly will have a much harder road in front of you without one. The next best thing is to get with players better than you are, preferrably jazz guys, and let them show you a few things to work on. Or you can go to a guitar teacher if that teacher doesn't teach blues or rock songs, but who teaches musical content.

 

[guroove]

Hey Jeff,

I answered a question posed in another thread about the importance of knowing the names of chords yesterday, and it seems that some people think it's ok to get by without knowing this kind of stuff! What is your take on "alternative" learning methods where people ignore conventions such as notation, and western theory?

Here is link to that thread:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=632403

 

[Fergie Fulton]

When I interview a music teacher and ask what am I going to learn, what is the correct answer to that question? I know how to read music, I know to construct chords and scales. I have trouble apply these concepts in a way that sounds musical and interesting. One thing I don't have is an ear though, for instance I can't pick a bassline off of a recording to save my life. If it's written out (yes even in standard music notation) I can figure it out though.

I would say after the length of time you have been playing you don't know how good you are or are not. I think you would surprise yourself after a few months with a good teacher sorting out what you have got and maybe linking it together, how much info you really have in you. It sounds like you need focus, an objective to piece your musical puzzle together, a good teacher will do this for you. You will know if they are the right teacher because it should be a different experience to what you have had in the last 20 or so years.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hey Jeff,

I answered a question posed in another thread about the importance of knowing the names of chords yesterday, and it seems that some people think it's ok to get by without knowing this kind of stuff! What is your take on "alternative" learning methods where people ignore conventions such as notation, and western theory?

Here is link to that thread:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=632403

It really boils down to finance and responsibility! If you pay a teacher to teach you how to play better, then the teacher is responsible to give you back what you paid to get.

People learn music in a million ways, and most of it is ridiculous. Besides, I have never figured out why people are trying to change methods of learning when the methods that already exist are perfect, without flaw, never to be in error, ever! And still, some guys ignore perfect musical facts and try to change something that is already without flaw. Why?

If one wishes to be a cook, but believes that it is OK to cook without knowing about "all that cooking stuff", what would you think about the capability of that chef? If a car mechanic didn't want to learn about all that "mechanical stuff" how would you feel about his ability to fix your car?

It is the same with the advice that you got yesterday. Some guys say that they want to play, but they really aren't interested in music to learn how. Ignore their advice and learn music. In one year you won't even recognize yourself if you learned well.

 

[chadhargis]

It really boils down to finance and responsibility! If you pay a teacher to teach you how to play better, then the teacher is responsible to give you back what you paid to get.

People learn music in a million ways, and most of it is ridiculous. Besides, I have never figured out why people are trying to change methods of learning when the methods that already exist are perfect, without flaw, never to be in error, ever! And still, some guys ignore perfect musical facts and try to change something that is already without flaw. Why?

If one wishes to be a cook, but believes that it is OK to cook without knowing about "all that cooking stuff", what would you think about the capability of that chef? If a car mechanic didn't want to learn about all that "mechanical stuff" how would you feel about his ability to fix your car?

It is the same with the advice that you got yesterday. Some guys say that they want to play, but they really aren't interested in music to learn how. Ignore their advice and learn music. In one year you won't even recognize yourself if you learned well.

Cooking and mechanics are good analogies. I'm a fine cook (but I don't bake...baking = jazz) and I've never taken a cooking class. I simply know what flavors I like, and I mix them together. I've made some awful tasting stuff, and some really good stuff too.

Same with working on cars and motorcycles. Never had a class or learned from anyone, but I can look at something mechanical and easily figure out how it worked. When I was in 1st grade, my school had a place called the "take apart center" where people would donate old appliances for the kids to disassemble and see how they worked. I was the only kid who would repair them and put them back together, because it made logical sense to me. I could see it, touch it, operate it and figure out where the breakdown was.

Music is very abstract. I've heard awful music, that people think is good. I've heard good music that is not "cool" to admit you like. I remember being a kid and being ashamed of liking bluegrass music and being in high school and hating all the alternative music my friends liked. In college it was grunge and "garage band" type stuff I never got into. And yes, I still like disco music.

Something mechanical either works perfectly or it doesn't, and it can easily be fixed. This is where I struggle with music. It seems too abstract to me, and I know there is a science to it. A logic flow to it. Once I find that, I'm can begin to put it together logically, just as I would an engine or a pan of lasagna.

 

[guroove]

Something mechanical either works perfectly or it doesn't, and it can easily be fixed. This is where I struggle with music. It seems too abstract to me, and I know there is a science to it. A logic flow to it. Once I find that, I'm can begin to put it together logically, just as I would an engine or a pan of lasagna.

That logic flow is called theory, and there are thousands of books on the subject that have been published in the last century. You have no excuse not to go and study!

 

[odin70]

he he Fergie you are still here. I really start to belive that you are hired by Berlin just to stir thing up a little

 

[bassy7]

Chadhargis,

"Music is very abstract"

The art of music can be abstract-- but I think the main point Jeff asserts in many ways is.....

If you really are interested in music, you should strive to learn the fundamental FACTS of music. Eventually learning to play with good technique, styles and chops are important but not as important as knowing the FACTS. Start from the ground up- if you really love music.


I am also mechanically inclined as you are Chadhargis- I can fix,design, and build lots of things without any training. However, I don't claim claim to be an engineer or a mechanic because not only am I "unschooled" in those areas but I am a little fuzzy as to the fundamentals of why these things work the way they do.
I've always shyed away from saying "I'm a musician" and tended to say "I'm a bass player". While I actually am a musician, I am more of bass player. I simply don't know enough about music fundamental IMO to authoratatively claim "I AM A MUSICIAN"

 

[JeffBerlin]

Chadhargis,

"Music is very abstract"

The art of music can be abstract-- but I think the main point Jeff asserts in many ways is.....

If you really are interested in music, you should strive to learn the fundamental FACTS of music. Eventually learning to play with good technique, styles and chops are important but not as important as knowing the FACTS. Start from the ground up- if you really love music.


I am also mechanically inclined as you are Chadhargis- I can fix,design, and build lots of things without any training. However, I don't claim claim to be an engineer or a mechanic because not only am I "unschooled" in those areas but I am a little fuzzy as to the fundamentals of why these things work the way they do.
I've always shyed away from saying "I'm a musician" and tended to say "I'm a bass player". While I actually am a musician, I am more of bass player. I simply don't know enough about music fundamental IMO to authoratatively claim "I AM A MUSICIAN"

Actually music is not abstract, not the academics of it. Since I mostly talk about academics, then it is good to know that in this area, music is anything BUT abstract.

 

[chadhargis]

That logic flow is called theory, and there are thousands of books on the subject that have been published in the last century. You have no excuse not to go and study!

Could you recommend one?

Jeff should write one, call it, "Music Science: The Good Stuff". I'd buy one.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Could you recommend one?

Jeff should write one, call it, "Music Science: The Good Stuff". I'd buy one.

There are a lot of books, but if you don't know much about music, then you won't know which books to get. Even with the reading material that I offer at The Players School, I will avoid some pages in lieu of others according to the need of the player.

Quite honestly, any questions about what and how to practice are just down the street if you can locate that one perfect musical source who will guide you correctly. Everything should be answered if you go to a teacher with music in their curriculum. Run, don't walk! You probably won't find too many answers here because what we do is talk and recommend things. But you need to get to a teacher who will help you now, who will see and hear you up close and work with you.

 

[chadhargis]

I'll ask Adam for a recommendation for a music book.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I'll ask Adam for a recommendation for a music book.

Ask him for lessons, not a book. I cannot stress enough the importance of your being under the guidance of somebody who teaches music. You will not get what you think that you will if you learn from a book. There is much much more to learning how to play than opening a book. It is the variety of lessons, the hands-on guidance to learn these things, the teacher's ability to keep you on task and provide various examples of music at the apropriate times to keep you moving forward.

You said that you were in a bit of a rush to learn how to play better. This is the way to do it. You won't find what you are looking for from a book because a book only deals with its own topic matter. You need lots of books, lots of ideas to work on. You haven't laid the musical groundwork yet.

 

[Mastermold]

Basically this is true and I know that I have said this before as well. I might add one tiny adjustment to this philosophy which is, if you are a beginner, then you can listen to and imitate your favorite players because you are learning, not performing. The caveat is to make sure that as one improves as a player and also wishes to do more than function in music, then they shouldn't take what they have imitated into their public performing life.

The term "functioning bassist" offends the functioning bass players who may fall into this description. Bass players often see themselves as more than what they actually are, which are functioning bass players most of the time. If one is OK with this, then cool! Functioning bass players play standard approaches to bass, but no more or no less than that. And why not! They function in their art.

But be adviced that when you wish to do other things on your bass, to represent more than, say, a blues bass line, then the responsibility goes up for what you represent in music because, you are thinking of yourself as someone who does not function on bass, but who is offering a higher level of music quality and something that one often believes comes from their heart. Just make sure that in this area that you may imagine yourself to occupy, that you don't bring the bass players that you imiated into your show.

I like this, Jeff. When I took up playing again a few years ago (after a nearly 20 year hiatus from music to pursue law school and launch a career as an attorney) I was just glad I could still play "good enough" to get gigs and play again after so many years. I missed music and just wanted to play. But now "good enough" isn't cutting it. And if nothing else, this thread and your constant encouragement to stretch out are pushing me in a direction I've resisted (because it is hard work and my time is limited) but a direction I knew I needed to go if I was ever going to be truly satisfied with my playing. Thank you.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I like this, Jeff. When I took up playing again a few years ago (after a nearly 20 year hiatus from music to pursue law school and launch a career as an attorney) I was just glad I could still play "good enough" to get gigs and play again after so many years. I missed music and just wanted to play. But now "good enough" isn't cutting it. And if nothing else, this thread and your constant encouragement to stretch out are pushing me in a direction I've resisted (because it is hard work and my time is limited) but a direction I knew I needed to go if I was ever going to be truly satisfied with my playing. Thank you.

It is hard work, but it doesn't all have to be done in a day. It can be done a half hour a day, but the trick is to extend the musical investigation for months. Imagine if you started doing this work on February 25th, 2009. Today a whole year would have passed and you would be a great improved player because of that half an hour of learning, regarding and practicing "The Good Stuff" That's how fast time flies. If you start this week doing the same thing, then soon you will be reaping way way more musical benefits than you may have reaped in a lifetime of learning on your own. Good luck!

 

[chadhargis]

Ask him for lessons, not a book. I cannot stress enough the importance of your being under the guidance of somebody who teaches music. You will not get what you think that you will if you learn from a book. There is much much more to learning how to play than opening a book. It is the variety of lessons, the hands-on guidance to learn these things, the teacher's ability to keep you on task and provide various examples of music at the apropriate times to keep you moving forward.

You said that you were in a bit of a rush to learn how to play better. This is the way to do it. You won't find what you are looking for from a book because a book only deals with its own topic matter. You need lots of books, lots of ideas to work on. You haven't laid the musical groundwork yet.

Oh no, I don't want a book to teach me to play. Not at all, that's what my teacher is for. I want a book to learn outside of my lessons. My teacher can only teach me so much in 30 minutes a week. He gives me things to work on. I also want to take responsibility to learn things on my own too (that I'm not paying by the half hour for).