I agree. I'll make sure the original plan is stuck to. I do use a book at his level. Mel Bay, make sure I've got spares with me at all times or write one out.
Thanks as always.
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Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3
- Thread starter john turner
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I agree. I'll make sure the original plan is stuck to. I do use a book at his level. Mel Bay, make sure I've got spares with me at all times or write one out.
Thanks as always.
Patterns aren't such a bad thing as long as you learn new music. Then you can have new patterns. Besides, everything learned well is a pattern. Think about it. We drive, cook, speak, dress, work and even watch the same types of TV shows. It is all a pattern. Just make sure that the patterns also include new ones and different musical bits of info.
In my lesson last night, this very topic came up. I was focusing on where to put what fingers (which is important from a fingering standpoint) when my teacher told me, "I want you to hear what you're doing as well".
His advice to me was to slow down and play the exercise much slower than I could actually play it. He said hold the note out for a long period of time and listen to it. Count "one-and-two-and-three-and-four" and hold the notes through the "and" beginning the next note on the number.
What got tossed at me last night is daunting to say the least. It's going to take a great deal of work to develop proficiency and I don't think I've been as excited about something in a long time. I can't wait to get to work on it and see what I can do.
I took a look around the Talkbass forums just checking some of the topics and the types of thoughts and questions that were being asked. A lot of guys on Talkbass have the willingness and the desire to become better players. But some of the threads that I checked out are populated with guys who don't know how to go about improving their playing.
The suggestions about how to improve were pretty ineffective. I was interested to find out just how many people here don't know anything about music nor know what to do to become better players.
If anybody has any suggestions about how to bring them over here with us to ask questions about music and to discover some great ways to play, then could you guys please do this? I don't know how Talkbass works. I just log on. I don't know how to go about inviting guys to come over to what might be the best thread about music on Talbass. Can you help??
Enjoy your weekend!
The suggestions about how to improve were pretty ineffective. I was interested to find out just how many people here don't know anything about music nor know what to do to become better players.
If anybody has any suggestions about how to bring them over here with us to ask questions about music and to discover some great ways to play, then could you guys please do this? I don't know how Talkbass works. I just log on. I don't know how to go about inviting guys to come over to what might be the best thread about music on Talbass. Can you help??
Enjoy your weekend!
i've suggested to a few guys to have a look here..every day there's a beginner who wants to know where to start,and the stock answer is to get a teacher,or a method or both....by the by is that barbeque on your collar
Yeah I do eventually get familiar enough with things to know their patterns inside and out.
I do find when I'm improvising I tend to fall back on certain patterns just because I know they'll work instead of using a pattern because I know how it will sound. That's really what I'm trying to avoid when I start an exercise. I don't want it to become just a piece of muscle memory that my fingers go to, even though my ears don't remember how it sounds.
I could do chord tone exercises all day just using little patterns, but if I don't know how it's supposed to sound I won't be able to adjust if they don't fit with the music that's going on around me.
As my accounting professors emphasize, "Understand why and how principals work the way they work; don't just memorize a million situations." If you memorize situations, it's extremely difficult to adapt to a situation that you didn't memorize. If you understand, it's universally applicable.
Someone suggested, or questioned, earlier in one of the "JB diss'ing Mus Ed" threads whether there was any summary of what had been discussed so far. There's quite a bit of reading for ppl to get through in 3 threads before they get to this point of the discussion(s). Maybe it's worth having a sticky made with a summary of Jeff's methods, teachings, advice etc. Would be better than some of the stickies that are there now
There is an Adam Nitti article in the latest Bass Musician Magazine, that ties in completely with this.
Here is the link - [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Here is the link - [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
So true. Everyone has their signature patterns they use in almost every solo they play. The key is that the great players have such a huge arsenal of them by constantly learning new music. Add in the fact that they dont just rely on them all the time (they can also play totally creative, non preconceived melodies in their solos as well), this is what makes them great solists in my eyes/ears. But that ability only comes from knowing your instrument like the back of your hand which happens through slow, out of time practicing and really learning where the notes are on your bass so when you hear a note in your head, you know where it is on the bass in a millisecond.
You can listen to your favorite players on any instrument from Metheny to Oscar to Bird to Brecker to Stern and yes Jeff has his signature patterns that he created. I know this because I have listened to a LOT of his playing, transcribed, and out right stole a couple of them from him. Of course I changed a note here or there but it is clearly a Berlin line - not mine. Hey what can I say, I like them and wish I had created them
Exercises are information. Interestingly, every good player who ever played never have difficulty adapting to anything in their musical lives once they learned how to play well, because this skill to adapt came slowly, over time. I get the idea that you use learning as a method to help you in a performance situation, but I personally never recommend that players practice for this reason, which is why I mostly stick to academics.
Use what you have, use what you know, repeat all that you are intimate with, and learn more stuff. You have a preconceived notion that repeating yourself might not be such a good thing. The only way to stop doing this is to get more vocabulary. Muscle memory simply means that you've learned the lesson. Now move on to new stuff and learn that as well. Then move on to more stuff after that. And so on. There is nothing wrong with muscle memory. This is what everything that every musician in history has played is based on.
The only thing to add to this is to not do this with a metronome, a click to keep time. The chord tones themselves are fine, but if you are forced to make sure that you don't slow down or speed up, then you are compromised in the learning and understanding of the exericise, lost in the performance of it. Performance ALWAYS comes later.
Someone suggested, or questioned, earlier in one of the "JB diss'ing Mus Ed" threads whether there was any summary of what had been discussed so far. There's quite a bit of reading for ppl to get through in 3 threads before they get to this point of the discussion(s). Maybe it's worth having a sticky made with a summary of Jeff's methods, teachings, advice etc. Would be better than some of the stickies that are there now
I only dissed bad music ed. I always wanted you guys to run, not walk, to the nearest good academic situation, wherever it was.
Sorry Jeff, me writing "..Diss'ing Mus Ed" was just a pun (maybe not that great a pun) I was trying to get 2 meanings out of one word (discussing good methods & maybe "dissing" the not so good
)
- Jun 25, 2007
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- Artist:TC Electronic RH450 bass system (original test-pilot)
Fantastic! That's the very room I take my lessons in. I wondered why there was a video camera on a tripod in there.
It seems to me you should have your own "Ask a Pro" page here at TalkBass.
It would be great if it could somehow be linked up to "General Instruction" and the "Technique" forums as well.
I don't know how you would go about that, if that idea even sounds interesting to you. Probably ask a mod or Paul himself.
Love reading your threads, but they become pages and pages very fast with a lots info buried deep inside! Would be nice of all of the ideas were divided up by subjects; musical, technique, instruction, opinions, etc!
If you're seeking beginners, then you have to first define what a beginner is.
I consider myself to be a true beginner. I have no music background, have never played anything in my life, and decided about 8 weeks ago to learn to play bass. Always wanted to, and decided that I'd just do it (to borrow from Nike).
It's folks like me who don't know what "the good stuff" is. I'm learning, slowly but surely, and I understand it's going to be a long, long road.
My purpose of reading this thread is not to understand it all, but to collect "puzzle pieces" that will allow me to eventually put the big picture together. I'm not far enough along to know much about what is being discussed, so I'm overwhelmed at times.
To a beginner like me, this thread is like looking at a solar eclipse. You know not to look directly at it, but you just can't help yourself.
I consider myself to be a true beginner. I have no music background, have never played anything in my life, and decided about 8 weeks ago to learn to play bass. Always wanted to, and decided that I'd just do it (to borrow from Nike).
It's folks like me who don't know what "the good stuff" is. I'm learning, slowly but surely, and I understand it's going to be a long, long road.
My purpose of reading this thread is not to understand it all, but to collect "puzzle pieces" that will allow me to eventually put the big picture together. I'm not far enough along to know much about what is being discussed, so I'm overwhelmed at times.
To a beginner like me, this thread is like looking at a solar eclipse. You know not to look directly at it, but you just can't help yourself.
Funny you say that but there is and for a long time. Eight pros in total including Adam Nitti, Janak Gwizdala, Todd Johnson, just to name a few. Click the Bass Guitar link on the home page then scroll down. Its there with sponsored forums, G.A.S. station and classifieds.
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
Glad to be back here-I've been over on another thread trying to explain to a bunch of ethically-challenged 20-somethings why putting someone else's music on bittorrent is stealing. Pheww! Scary!
I've used Commreman's article reprint (thanks, BTW) as a jumping off point for some of my students this week. I have them taking 2 of the arpeggio possibilities and playing them through Ornithology, Stella by Starlight, and I'll Remember April. I've chosen 357R/57R3 as my example. I've told them that this is NOT a performance exercise and they should not worry about speed, etc. I call this sort of thing "chewing on the changes"-you're just getting a taste of them by rolling them around and seeing what they'll do.
One thing that strikes me as I read the article is that it puts a lot of the musical responsibility on the student in a good way. It's totally easy to spend your life reading exercises, learning other people's licks and solos, and generally dealing with information presented to you in a complete way. This forces you to go within and find the information yourself. That strikes me as more valuable somehow.
I find that a lot of my students (and sometimes me) are uncomfortable with the fine books of Chuck Sher (The Improviser's Bass Method and the bass soloing book he co-wrote with Mark Johnson www.shermusic.com) because he will teach a concept and then tell you to go play in the big open field that is your bass neck and see what you can make of it-in short to improvise. It's a whole lot easier for me (and my students) to just deal with notes on a page, but this strikes me as extremely valuable.
I've used Commreman's article reprint (thanks, BTW) as a jumping off point for some of my students this week. I have them taking 2 of the arpeggio possibilities and playing them through Ornithology, Stella by Starlight, and I'll Remember April. I've chosen 357R/57R3 as my example. I've told them that this is NOT a performance exercise and they should not worry about speed, etc. I call this sort of thing "chewing on the changes"-you're just getting a taste of them by rolling them around and seeing what they'll do.
One thing that strikes me as I read the article is that it puts a lot of the musical responsibility on the student in a good way. It's totally easy to spend your life reading exercises, learning other people's licks and solos, and generally dealing with information presented to you in a complete way. This forces you to go within and find the information yourself. That strikes me as more valuable somehow.
I find that a lot of my students (and sometimes me) are uncomfortable with the fine books of Chuck Sher (The Improviser's Bass Method and the bass soloing book he co-wrote with Mark Johnson www.shermusic.com) because he will teach a concept and then tell you to go play in the big open field that is your bass neck and see what you can make of it-in short to improvise. It's a whole lot easier for me (and my students) to just deal with notes on a page, but this strikes me as extremely valuable.
Roy - thanks for sticking up for Carol! I was reading that thread and feeling like kicking in teeth, but I knew it would be a senseless battle! I cut my teeth on her bass line books years ago as a youngster and I think they're great chordal based material. (They still sell for about $4.00! - same price as in the 80's.) I think she has a great philosophy that's real easy to grasp - very systematic.
It's amazing how many people will spend countless hours on the internet flaming the master who hold the keys to unlocking the answers they are seeking.
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