I am mixed about this because I don't know if you need the extra work. If your teacher has his act together, then you shouldn't be taking anything else on. But, I guess you will have to make that determination. Good luck.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3
- Thread starter john turner
- Start date
- Status
I am mixed about this because I don't know if you need the extra work. If your teacher has his act together, then you shouldn't be taking anything else on. But, I guess you will have to make that determination. Good luck.
OK So i just took 10 minutes to try an experiment:
I took out my Motown Bass Classics book which has both standard notation and tab. I've played out of this book quite a bit, but always used the tab. Next I covered up the tab. Next I tried to play off the standard notation.
This was much slower and I had to stop a lot and figure things out. But the cool thing was that in the process, I would often find two or three ways of playing the same notes. This let me experiment with different fingerings and also helped me to see more clearly where all the notes actually "fit" in relation to the scales and chords.
After playing a few measures this way, I next uncovered the tab to compare. I found that many times my playing did not match the tab even though it was correct. Too, I also understood much better what I was playing. I think I learned more in 10 minutes, than I did in 2 hours the other night that I spent just reading tab.
This is good.
I took out my Motown Bass Classics book which has both standard notation and tab. I've played out of this book quite a bit, but always used the tab. Next I covered up the tab. Next I tried to play off the standard notation.
This was much slower and I had to stop a lot and figure things out. But the cool thing was that in the process, I would often find two or three ways of playing the same notes. This let me experiment with different fingerings and also helped me to see more clearly where all the notes actually "fit" in relation to the scales and chords.
After playing a few measures this way, I next uncovered the tab to compare. I found that many times my playing did not match the tab even though it was correct. Too, I also understood much better what I was playing. I think I learned more in 10 minutes, than I did in 2 hours the other night that I spent just reading tab.
This is good.
If you're not getting enough to work on outside your half hour lesson, just ask for more "home work", that way you're still working on the lesson structure your teacher is giving you.
A good long while ago, when I had & could afford lessons, I always had more learning material given to me than I could manage between lessons.
I would suggest that you ignore anything written in tab forever! Tab is a shortcut, a non-musical shortcut at that. Notes are perfectly suitable to identify pitches and rhythms, if they are written correctly. My hard core suggestion is to never, ever, under any curcumstances use tab. It has no use, no place in musical development and it doesn't represent rhythms or the nuances of music that you should be using your ear to pick up on. Further, don't look for musical improvement when you practice, because while you may sound better today, chances are you are going to sound worse tomorrow. I am not sure why this happens, but it happens to us all and it is a part of the learning process. Good luck!
One thing I found sorely missing in the Motown Classics standard notation, however, is any kind of markings for phrasing, dynamics, and things like stacatto that I'm used to in piano music. This does make it a little more difficult.
What is the best sight reading material for bass?
What is the best sight reading material for bass?
The more that I think about this, the more that I think that it is a good idea that chadhargis not buy that book, at least not for a few months. You are making decisions about what you think that you should be doing, and at this stage of your musical development, I am not sure that this is a good idea. Just give it up totally for a little while. If your teacher is all that you think that he is, then you won't miss having an extra homework at all. It is all up to your teacher to help you, completely 100% at least for a while.
Don't perform these works. READ THEM! Don't worry about any kind of articulation whatsoever. You aren't supposed to be reading these pieces with any kind of performance idea in mind. If you wish to get the flavor of what Jamerson played, then buy the CD's and listen to how he played. This is ear training. But totally ignore any articulation issues entirely for now. Just get the notes and the rhythms that go with them and read and play what you are reading. You will have your hands filled with just this manner of learning all by itself.
My schedule is pretty packed with work and family. But I dedicate an hour and a half each weeknight, and three to four hours each weekend day to practicing with my bass in my hand. When my daughter goes to bed, I typically head to the gym (I've been a bum lately) and I'm back around 10pm. I am a night owl, and this is the time when some "book learning" would be helpful. When the house is asleep and I can't play. I could squeeze in an extra hour or so of study versus reading TalkBass.
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
I just had an interchange with a student about this. I asked him, "Why do you think we study Standing in the Shadows of Motown".
He answered, "To get the concepts?"
"Wrong, you can listen to the recordings for that."
"For the feel?"
"Same thing. The REAL reason to study these lines is to learn the rhythmic vocabulary as a reading/sightreading bassist. It's way more complicated than what most arrangers will put in front of me to read. If I can read every line in this book, most 16th note rhythms are going to be easy to understand and play".
In Nashville, there are 1200+ bassists in the Musicians Union. If I need someone who can sightread a chart in a studio or sit in a Pit and read a Musical, the number of qualified applicants dwindles to about 120, so 90% of your competition is immediately knocked out. A good thing to keep in mind if your bass is making your house note....
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
No worries-I seldom if ever take anything as a flame. I look at this thread in particular as a safe place to trade educational ideas, get insight and feedback, and recharge my mind and approach to playing and teaching.
If I want to court flaming, I'll wander back to the Sports Bar and talk about Jaco and Tal Wilkenfeld (for the record, I'm in favor of both of them
).....
he he Fergie you are still here. I really start to belive that you are hired by Berlin just to stir thing up a little
Maybe we are a double act?
Holy smokes, I got the "good stuff" laid on me at my lesson tonight. Taking Jeff's advice, I asked my teacher why I was being taught what he was teaching and how did it relate to music. Dear Lord in heaven, I have seen the light, and it's good light.
Watching Adam play the same stuff he's asking me to work on, then seeing him fire up a backing track and just CREATE using what he wants me to learn was just amazing. I sat there with my jaw dropped open watching his fingers dance around. Then he showed me how we'll build on it and what will happen as we add elements to the foundation he's teaching me. I knew it was the "good stuff', as Jeff says, when he started talking about "harmony" and different musical elements.
I'm sufficiently challenged now. I even joked at the end of the lesson saying, "Can you play that stuff on my bass, because I don't think mine works that way". He laughed and said, "It's going to make a lot more sounds than this".
I gotta get to work shedding this stuff. It's going to be a difficult, and I'm excited.
Watching Adam play the same stuff he's asking me to work on, then seeing him fire up a backing track and just CREATE using what he wants me to learn was just amazing. I sat there with my jaw dropped open watching his fingers dance around. Then he showed me how we'll build on it and what will happen as we add elements to the foundation he's teaching me. I knew it was the "good stuff', as Jeff says, when he started talking about "harmony" and different musical elements.
I'm sufficiently challenged now. I even joked at the end of the lesson saying, "Can you play that stuff on my bass, because I don't think mine works that way". He laughed and said, "It's going to make a lot more sounds than this".
I gotta get to work shedding this stuff. It's going to be a difficult, and I'm excited.
Jeff,
I had a beginning student show up, we're talking a minimally practicing 6th grader. No book, no guitar pick, no handwritten lesson, in other words completely unprepared. He's on the fourth string in the method book so he knows a little bit about reading.
So I broke out some manuscript paper and told him under the circumstances we can't worry much about playing but we're going to study.
I told him what a C major triad was, what it looked like on the staff and how it fit on the first two guitar strings. I said this is a given, they all look like this up the neck on these two strings, find an F major triad. Of course he didn't learn that root note so high on the neck yet, but he does know B to C and E to F are half steps so we walked up that second string one letter name at a time. Using that he found F major triad, and consequently A and C notes on the first string. G required a bit of thought but he got it and again two new notes, B and D. He knew and understood this and I had him play them a few minutes.
Next I told him we can change the order of the notes and explained first inversion. We did this for C, wrote it out, then played both inversions and saw how these stacked and looked on the staff. Did it with the other two G and F.
I left the second inversion for him to figure out, with the help of telling him which string had two notes.
The idea here was learning a major triad its formula, all the notes in the key of C on the first two strings without really trying to do that, and never come unprepared. Truth is he was pretty engaged in the whole thing. I don't know if he'll do that work, but he understood. I've never covered that bit of theory for so new a student.
I was trying to save a trainwrecked lesson, and hoped I did the right thing.
I had a beginning student show up, we're talking a minimally practicing 6th grader. No book, no guitar pick, no handwritten lesson, in other words completely unprepared. He's on the fourth string in the method book so he knows a little bit about reading.
So I broke out some manuscript paper and told him under the circumstances we can't worry much about playing but we're going to study.
I told him what a C major triad was, what it looked like on the staff and how it fit on the first two guitar strings. I said this is a given, they all look like this up the neck on these two strings, find an F major triad. Of course he didn't learn that root note so high on the neck yet, but he does know B to C and E to F are half steps so we walked up that second string one letter name at a time. Using that he found F major triad, and consequently A and C notes on the first string. G required a bit of thought but he got it and again two new notes, B and D. He knew and understood this and I had him play them a few minutes.
Next I told him we can change the order of the notes and explained first inversion. We did this for C, wrote it out, then played both inversions and saw how these stacked and looked on the staff. Did it with the other two G and F.
I left the second inversion for him to figure out, with the help of telling him which string had two notes.
The idea here was learning a major triad its formula, all the notes in the key of C on the first two strings without really trying to do that, and never come unprepared. Truth is he was pretty engaged in the whole thing. I don't know if he'll do that work, but he understood. I've never covered that bit of theory for so new a student.
I was trying to save a trainwrecked lesson, and hoped I did the right thing.
Chord tone exercises are going well for me! I've been taking individual chords and doing your Bass Player article exercises, ascending and descending. Even after doing it only a few times I find myself not paying attention to the written notes and really playing the arpeggio forms by ear. I hear the next note and I'm getting better and better at immediately knowing where it is, though if I'm in doubt I'll sing it aloud and be sure of myself before fretting it.
I've also stressed the importance of not falling back on patterns while practicing. I don't intentionally try to find the notes elsewhere, but sometimes my hands and brain find the note I need in different places. It changes the whole physical form of the exercise and leads me to new places on the fretboard and new familiarity with where my intervals are.
My end goal is to become very familiar with how each arpeggio/chord (open, closed, all inversions) sounds and not have to rely on silly patterns or muscle memory, but rather my ears.
I've also stressed the importance of not falling back on patterns while practicing. I don't intentionally try to find the notes elsewhere, but sometimes my hands and brain find the note I need in different places. It changes the whole physical form of the exercise and leads me to new places on the fretboard and new familiarity with where my intervals are.
My end goal is to become very familiar with how each arpeggio/chord (open, closed, all inversions) sounds and not have to rely on silly patterns or muscle memory, but rather my ears.
- Jun 25, 2007
- 4,531
- 135
- 63
- Disclosures
- Artist:TC Electronic RH450 bass system (original test-pilot)
I just might suggest that you have them read and play instead of just seeing what amounts to a harmony lesson. Keep the reading super simple and have them count. The guitar in their hands is the ice breaker; it gives them reason to be with you. In fact, the reading and playing is more important than the harmony at this point in their musically developing lives.
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
- Status
