Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[Commreman]

There are few things more important to me than getting the 'good stuff' to kids. I've been observed teaching and discuss what I am doing with the full time faculty at the school I do the after school lessons. (rereading and editing it sounds curt don't read it that way please,)

I'm known for holding my ground, standing firm at the store I teach at (the bane of many teachers I know, and I see what is going on). Strings and horns teach, guitar and bass expected to pander.

I'm into 'my way or the highway' You MUST read, and the shear number of kids I teach to do this, and the guitar players can all read chords, leads me to wonder why every musician can't read! You must learn jazz. But l do spend a few moments helping a student work out a problem they may have in a pop tune if it's appropriate to their level, at the end of the lesson. (5 minutes no tabs)

Now one thing I will do is grab a concept from a song they say they want to play. There is a popular song out now that has a line utilizing thirds. I'll tell the student, that's thirds, before you can play that you have to be able to locate them on the neck. I'll write them out, explain major and minor and have them play it. They've got a fret board concept applicable to all music, written out. Also they've learned an important harmonic concept, what makes a chord 'quality' as opposed to that all pervasive R5 power chord that is all they've been bombarded with.

I understand what you mean by 'luring' and that seems like a politically correct way to teach (I'm not for it). I fully explain to parent and student what we will do (unfortunately one seems wealthy enough to send a third grader to me to learn music and another teacher for Disneyland lessons, the kid is doing fine with me, why?)

I'm also dealing with a range of ages from about 3rd grade up. (Some absolutely are not ready, some will sit through an entire lesson and read through all six strings and basic chords and can play).

I will sit with any student and if I've told them 10 times or more to move their hand position or correct something tell them I'm not getting angry I'm coaching them through a move, we'll sit here working until you get it or you're frustrated (that phrase actually usually releases frustration at least once)

Most lessons go well. One of the things I meant by what you quoted is the level of work done. I had to figure out every triad (on various string groups) then 6ths, 7ths, altered on up to 13th chords. Write them out in all inversions and keys and arrange chord melody with them. (by the way after lessons that same teacher would teach me vocal arranging to me etc, even rock, free, but the lessons were hardcore) It would be a pleasure to have a student come in and do that much work.

I think an issue with any kid now in any undertaking is finding ONE thing they will pursue and maybe even give something else up. Find something to do for an hour or four a day and WORK at it. If someone puts forth 6 months hard work in music, figures out they don't like playing, they will have gained appreciation of music, learned a lot. It is not a waste to quit or a failure. (I did it in drawing).

A basic goal I have for all of my students is to be able to play and understand Summertime, Autumn Leaves, a couple Blues, Footprints, Blue Bossa, the standard basic jazz repertoire of about 15 tunes.

Thanks for listening, posts are not the easiest ways to discuss such things, teaching in itself is fascinating. Regarding my first paragraph, nothing is more important in any teaching endeavors than improving what I'm doing.

Bill -

Out of curiosities' sake, what songs do you consider the "standard repertoire" of jazz tunes?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I feel i have to comment on the idea that anyone would try and "lure" players into music, surely the idea is to inspire them by showing them their potential, if they have any, and inspire them to a better way of learning. I can't understand some of the negative use of ideas i see on this thread sometime, player need encouragement not negativity if they are to succeed.

 

[Roy Vogt]

I feel i have to comment on the idea that anyone would try and "lure" players into music, surely the idea is to inspire them by showing them their potential, if they have any, and inspire them to a better way of learning. I can't understand some of the negative use of ideas i see on this thread sometime, player need encouragement not negativity if they are to succeed.

A lot of times if a player is on the fence about doing this for a living I'll ask, "If playing Music were illegal, would you find a way to still do it?" If so, they should give themselves a chance. After having many great teachers who busted my chops in the classroom and the teaching studio and encouraged me to learn and grow as a player as well I've come to a place where I use a bit of both. Primarily, though, my message is "if you work at this you'll get it and if you want to be a Pro Player you can give yourself that gift with a lot of hard work."

 

[JeffBerlin]

I am a "perfect vessel" for sure. Never had a music class. Never played music. Know nothing about music other than what I've dug up on my own.

I woke up one day, after years of saying, "Someday I am going to learn to play", and decided THIS was "someday". Off I went. 38 years old, trying to learn to play as good as some 6 year olds.

It's going to be a long journey....

It will be a whole lot shorter if you get a teacher who will teach you music and how to play it on your bass. This isn't poetic nonsense! This is the truth! You could be way more improved on bass inside of 6 months if you found a great teacher, someone who knows what to assign you and how to improve you as a player. At The Players School of Music, I do it in three months. There have got to be good schools or teachers near to where you live. But, make sure that music is at the center of what you are paying to learn, or else you will be hanging, jamming, or being lectured without a musical core.

It is easy to do this for yourself: simply ask what kind of music lessons you will receive. If your teacher can't answer a direct question about what musical content they intend to have you work on, then do not spend a dime there. Just seek out somebody who can answer a straight question with a straight answer, and that answer should have music content in the dead center of their answer. Good luck and thanks for reading!

 

[JeffBerlin]

There are few things more important to me than getting the 'good stuff' to kids. I've been observed teaching and discuss what I am doing with the full time faculty at the school I do the after school lessons. (rereading and editing it sounds curt don't read it that way please,)

I'm known for holding my ground, standing firm at the store I teach at (the bane of many teachers I know, and I see what is going on). Strings and horns teach, guitar and bass expected to pander.

I'm into 'my way or the highway' You MUST read, and the shear number of kids I teach to do this, and the guitar players can all read chords, leads me to wonder why every musician can't read! You must learn jazz. But l do spend a few moments helping a student work out a problem they may have in a pop tune if it's appropriate to their level, at the end of the lesson. (5 minutes no tabs)

Now one thing I will do is grab a concept from a song they say they want to play. There is a popular song out now that has a line utilizing thirds. I'll tell the student, that's thirds, before you can play that you have to be able to locate them on the neck. I'll write them out, explain major and minor and have them play it. They've got a fret board concept applicable to all music, written out. Also they've learned an important harmonic concept, what makes a chord 'quality' as opposed to that all pervasive R5 power chord that is all they've been bombarded with.

I understand what you mean by 'luring' and that seems like a politically correct way to teach (I'm not for it). I fully explain to parent and student what we will do (unfortunately one seems wealthy enough to send a third grader to me to learn music and another teacher for Disneyland lessons, the kid is doing fine with me, why?)

I'm also dealing with a range of ages from about 3rd grade up. (Some absolutely are not ready, some will sit through an entire lesson and read through all six strings and basic chords and can play).

I will sit with any student and if I've told them 10 times or more to move their hand position or correct something tell them I'm not getting angry I'm coaching them through a move, we'll sit here working until you get it or you're frustrated (that phrase actually usually releases frustration at least once)

Most lessons go well. One of the things I meant by what you quoted is the level of work done. I had to figure out every triad (on various string groups) then 6ths, 7ths, altered on up to 13th chords. Write them out in all inversions and keys and arrange chord melody with them. (by the way after lessons that same teacher would teach me vocal arranging to me etc, even rock, free, but the lessons were hardcore) It would be a pleasure to have a student come in and do that much work.

I think an issue with any kid now in any undertaking is finding ONE thing they will pursue and maybe even give something else up. Find something to do for an hour or four a day and WORK at it. If someone puts forth 6 months hard work in music, figures out they don't like playing, they will have gained appreciation of music, learned a lot. It is not a waste to quit or a failure. (I did it in drawing).

A basic goal I have for all of my students is to be able to play and understand Summertime, Autumn Leaves, a couple Blues, Footprints, Blue Bossa, the standard basic jazz repertoire of about 15 tunes.

Thanks for listening, posts are not the easiest ways to discuss such things, teaching in itself is fascinating. Regarding my first paragraph, nothing is more important in any teaching endeavors than improving what I'm doing.

Good points! The ideas tht I offer comes from old school music education. Since I was practically a baby, I have had academic lessons. Of course my teachers were gentle good people. But the content was what it was and being a little kid who didn't know the difference, I just did what I was told to do.

The result is that I can play anything that I hear, write anything that I can imagine and function in any style at a moment's notice, even if I have never played that stydle or sometimes, even that song before.

I guess the idea is this: with kindness, respect for your students, and gentleness of communication, you are the Boss! Give them "The Good Stuff" because not many teachers are anymore.

 

[Billnc]

Bill -

Out of curiosities' sake, what songs do you consider the "standard repertoire" of jazz tunes?

I like to think anyone, no matter their 'playing' goals would stand to gain important insights by playing, Straight blues changes in all 12 keys, minor blues in all 12 keys and easier jazz tunes, Straight, No Chaser changes, Summertime, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, Satin Doll, Take the A Train, Footprints, Fly Me to the Moon and the like. If you can handle those you've got a solid base, You can move on in jazz, or communicate to anyone else musically.

One thing we need is an outlet for jazz players (the young ones) Electric bass and guitar are not included in most middle school or upper school bands, if they even have a jazz band. The main point I find sad in most school jazz bands is no improvisation, all the parts are written out. I've heard from a few teachers, by way of parents trying to get a guitar player into jazz band, guitar is laughable as an instrument, no one has the skills to play a chord chart or read at all. This shows the said state of affairs of most guitar and bass teaching. I've had a few get in.

I understand kids wanting to bash around, you can take up baseball and be coached, and also bang around in a field or parking lot with friends, same in music. Jeff, I believe at the end of the day PSOM has a band situation, it'd be great to have more of this situation for kids.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

A lot of times if a player is on the fence about doing this for a living I'll ask, "If playing Music were illegal, would you find a way to still do it?" If so, they should give themselves a chance. After having many great teachers who busted my chops in the classroom and the teaching studio and encouraged me to learn and grow as a player as well I've come to a place where I use a bit of both. Primarily, though, my message is "if you work at this you'll get it and if you want to be a Pro Player you can give yourself that gift with a lot of hard work."

Again i agree Roy but my comment was more towards the idea of getting them inspired, not about when you have them. A teacher can be authoritative and strong in their teachings and the manner they use...The old horse to water proverb has a lot of truth, its part of the skill sets they learn themselves.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I like to think anyone, no matter their 'playing' goals would stand to gain important insights by playing, Straight blues changes in all 12 keys, minor blues in all 12 keys and easier jazz tunes, Summertime, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, Satin Doll, Take the A Train, Footprints, Fly Me to the Moon and the like. If you can handle those you've got a solid base, You can move on in jazz, or communicate to anyone else musically.

One thing we need is an outlet for jazz players (the young ones) Electric bass and guitar are not included in most middle school or upper school bands, if they even have a jazz band. The main point I find sad in most school jazz bands is no improvisation, all the parts are written out. I've heard from a few teachers, by way of parents trying to get a guitar player into jazz band, guitar is laughable as an instrument, no one has the skills to play a chord chart or read at all. This shows the said state of affairs of most guitar and bass teaching. I've had a few get in.

.

Just having that conversation this morning funny enough about when myself and three others were punished for playing "i wanna be like you" from Disney's "The Jungle Book" in a practise room of the orchestra.
Early Disney films always had good music, so exposure was there at an early age. The song we were doing was pure dixieland jazz swing from Louis Prima and his band and we were punished for doing so.
As we noted the era a film is made in, the music will be reflected as what is current at the time, or a producers love of that music. Clint Eastwood i believe writes a lot of his music in collaboration with jazz artists for his films because of his love of jazz.
Looking back some of those 80's soundtracks date a film bad in the instrumentation used, especially synths and drum machines. LOL

 

[Roy Vogt]

Again i agree Roy but my comment was more towards the idea of getting them inspired, not about when you have them. A teacher can be authoritative and strong in their teachings and the manner they use...The old horse to water proverb has a lot of truth, its part of the skill sets they learn themselves.

Actually I was going there too. A lot of what transpires is "So you like Victor/Stanley/Jaco/Jeff Berlin? Here's what they're using to play like that. You can do it too-and play like yourselves besides (that of course is the end goal)."

 

[Billnc]

Actually I was going there too. A lot of what transpires is "So you like Victor/Stanley/Jaco/Jeff Berlin? Here's what they're using to play like that. You can do it too-and play like yourselves besides (that of course is the end goal)."

My answer, don't study Vic, John Paul Jones, Satch etc "Study what they studied."

 

[Roy Vogt]

My answer, don't study Vic, John Paul Jones, Satch etc "Study what they studied."

I just use the players to introduce musical devices. For example Jeff's solis on for both Joe Fraziers and his solo on Bach and Manos de Piedra are seminars in how you can use the material from Chord Studies for Trombone (Chord and approach tones) and use it musically. That's a great way to open the door to Chord Tone study, IME. It's been my experience that if they can relate the solid musical content back to their heroes it's very empowering and inspires them to explore the concept further and move from imitation and emulation to their own identities as players (granted I'm working with very talented College-age players with several years on the instrument and not beginners).
I'm definitely about taking it back to the source, but a current player can be the gateway for that to inspire learning.
I assume you meant Satriani and not Satchmo

 

[Billnc]

I just use the players to introduce musical devices. For example Jeff's solis on for both Joe Fraziers and his solo on Bach and Manos de Piedra are seminars in how you can use the material from Chord Studies for Trombone (Chord and approach tones) and use it musically. That's a great way to open the door to Chord Tone study, IME.
I'm definitely about taking it back to the source, but a current player can be the gateway for that to inspire learning.
I assume you meant Satriani and not Satchmo

I understand! We said the same thing with different wordings. Was hoping you didn't take it as a flame! Good call on the Satch, I thought "Satchmo" first time I ever heard Satriani called that!

 

[JeffBerlin]

My answer, don't study Vic, John Paul Jones, Satch etc "Study what they studied."

Basically this is true and I know that I have said this before as well. I might add one tiny adjustment to this philosophy which is, if you are a beginner, then you can listen to and imitate your favorite players because you are learning, not performing. The caveat is to make sure that as one improves as a player and also wishes to do more than function in music, then they shouldn't take what they have imitated into their public performing life.

The term "functioning bassist" offends the functioning bass players who may fall into this description. Bass players often see themselves as more than what they actually are, which are functioning bass players most of the time. If one is OK with this, then cool! Functioning bass players play standard approaches to bass, but no more or no less than that. And why not! They function in their art.

But be adviced that when you wish to do other things on your bass, to represent more than, say, a blues bass line, then the responsibility goes up for what you represent in music because, you are thinking of yourself as someone who does not function on bass, but who is offering a higher level of music quality and something that one often believes comes from their heart. Just make sure that in this area that you may imagine yourself to occupy, that you don't bring the bass players that you imiated into your show.

 

[ccyork]

Hi Jeff and Everyone,

I want to learn to play music better. I am mediocore at best, but my friends who are not musicians think that I play well. I started playing music around age 18, which was 23 years ago. For the length of time I've been playing I should be a lot better.

I started with classical piano, then acoustic guitar, then singing, then electric guitar, then bass. I've even tried the recorder and harmonica. I'd love to learn cello and mandolin. I have a pretty solid foundation in music theory. I'm almost entirely self-taught. I live in a very remote area and the few times I tried to get a teacher, it was very unsatisfactory. They had no real plan appropriate to my age, motivation, or goals. It was the typical "tell me what you want to learn today" experience. I gave up, because I wanted them to tell me what I should be learning.

I've got tons of videos and books, but I've not improved a whole lot from them. Most of them are very frustrating. For example I bought a book on latin guitar. It showed how to play the basic rhythms through some chord changes, but it did not tell me anything about other aspects of the latin music, for instance: "What are typical latin chord progressions?" OTOH, Steve Kauffman's Bluegrass guitar videos are very instructive.

The thing is I want to improve, but I'm not sure how to get better. It seems I want to play every instrument I see and it's hard to focus. The instruments I truly love are the bass, acoustic guitar, and voice. I play bass well enough to play in a band, but I ain't no Jamerson (who's my favorite bassist). I love all kinds of music: classical, jazz, rock, folk, country...everything.

I did recently come to the conclusion that I need to stop worrying about gear, just learn how to use what gear I have and learn to play music. One sounds good because they know how to play, not becuase of what gear they're playing. Watching Jack White in "It Might Get Loud" really helped drive this point home for me.

How do I get better? Help me!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hi Jeff and Everyone,

I want to learn to play music better. I am mediocore at best, but my friends who are not musicians think that I play well. I started playing music around age 18, which was 23 years ago. For the length of time I've been playing I should be a lot better.

I started with classical piano, then acoustic guitar, then singing, then electric guitar, then bass. I've even tried the recorder and harmonica. I'd love to learn cello and mandolin. I have a pretty solid foundation in music theory. I'm almost entirely self-taught. I live in a very remote area and the few times I tried to get a teacher, it was very unsatisfactory. They had no real plan appropriate to my age, motivation, or goals. It was the typical "tell me what you want to learn today" experience. I gave up, because I wanted them to tell me what I should be learning.

I've got tons of videos and books, but I've not improved a whole lot from them. Most of them are very frustrating. For example I bought a book on latin guitar. It showed how to play the basic rhythms through some chord changes, but it did not tell me anything about other aspects of the latin music, for instance: "What are typical latin chord progressions?" OTOH, Steve Kauffman's Bluegrass guitar videos are very instructive.

The thing is I want to improve, but I'm not sure how to get better. It seems I want to play every instrument I see and it's hard to focus. The instruments I truly love are the bass, acoustic guitar, and voice. I play bass well enough to play in a band, but I ain't no Jamerson (who's my favorite bassist). I love all kinds of music: classical, jazz, rock, folk, country...everything.

I did recently come to the conclusion that I need to stop worrying about gear, just learn how to use what gear I have and learn to play music. One sounds good because they know how to play, not becuase of what gear they're playing. Watching Jack White in "It Might Get Loud" really helped drive this point home for me.

How do I get better? Help me!

Get a teacher who teaches music. Don't practice your exercises with a metronome. Learn how to read! Listen and imitate anybody that you can as you are still a beginner. Factualize your lessons, don't study with any teacher who even mentions the words "groove" or "pocket". Put the books and DVD's into your closet and find a music teacher who teaches musical content. Do not teach yourself (you aren't qualified to teach yourself). If you do these things, then you will be a new man on bass in three to six months. Good luck.

P.S. Apologies to the other guys for repeating myself all the time. But how do I avoic saying the same things if some guys are still asking the same questions. I don't have an answer for this.

 

[bassy7]

Can anyone recommend a teacher in the Richmond, VA area that may be able to teach me the good stuff ?

thanks

 

[chadhargis]

It will be a whole lot shorter if you get a teacher who will teach you music and how to play it on your bass. This isn't poetic nonsense! This is the truth! You could be way more improved on bass inside of 6 months if you found a great teacher, someone who knows what to assign you and how to improve you as a player. At The Players School of Music, I do it in three months. There have got to be good schools or teachers near to where you live. But, make sure that music is at the center of what you are paying to learn, or else you will be hanging, jamming, or being lectured without a musical core.

It is easy to do this for yourself: simply ask what kind of music lessons you will receive. If your teacher can't answer a direct question about what musical content they intend to have you work on, then do not spend a dime there. Just seek out somebody who can answer a straight question with a straight answer, and that answer should have music content in the dead center of their answer. Good luck and thanks for reading!

Jeff, if at all possible, I'll be coming down in September for the one week intensive. Until then, I believe I have a good teacher. Two lessons is not enough time to fully evaluate someone, especially when I don't have the knowledge to determine good from bad. Remember, I know NOTHING about music and wouldn't know it if it hit me in the face. I could be getting the "good stuff" and would never know it.

I've been told that my teacher is excellent, and there is no questioning his ability to play and his academic credentials as well.

I had one teacher for 6 weeks, and when I asked him about the Circle of Fifths, and he couldn't answer the question, then I asked about where he studied music and he said he never had, I began searching for a new teacher. That's when Adam Nitti was recommended to me (Roy too, but Adam was faster on the email reply....sorry Roy ). Tonight is my third lesson, and I've told Adam that I'm interested in learning music, not how to play songs. He knows I have a singing background, and am familiar with harmony. He gave me some ear training to do, and I demonstrated that I can "hear" notes and know how to reproduce them on my bass.

At this point, I still struggle to find, say, a F 3rd octave on my bass without counting frets and such. I'm also working on my reading, which is helping with that. Adam is having me work on fingering and other fundamentals.

I believe in time, we'll dive deeper into pure music after I've mastered the fundamentals. As I've said before, I don't understand 90% of the stuff that's discussed here. But it's all seeds I'm planting in my head. I have a good memory, and when I learn the missing bits of knowledge, it will start to fall into place.

I desperately need to learn music theory fundamentals. I've read quite a bit about it, but I always have questions. I have a lot of catching up to do. I'm convinced that spending a day or two just studying music and terminology would help me tremendously. Then I'd have a common language which would allow me to communicate with other musicians. Sadly, I don't know of any place that gives adult classes on music without enrolling in a full semester program. I'd gladly pay to take a one or two night a week class for a few weeks to get me up to speed.

 

[ccyork]

Get a teacher who teaches music.

When I interview a music teacher and ask what am I going to learn, what is the correct answer to that question? I know how to read music, I know to construct chords and scales. I have trouble apply these concepts in a way that sounds musical and interesting. One thing I don't have is an ear though, for instance I can't pick a bassline off of a recording to save my life. If it's written out (yes even in standard music notation) I can figure it out though.

 

[minus40]

Hi Jeff and Everyone,

I did recently come to the conclusion that I need to stop worrying about gear, just learn how to use what gear I have and learn to play music. One sounds good because they know how to play, not becuase of what gear they're playing. Watching Jack White in "It Might Get Loud" really helped drive this point home for me.

How do I get better? Help me!

Dear CC - No disrespect intended here but have you sat down and read this entire thread from it beginning? I think your question would have been answered in many ways.
Good Luck! Don S

 

[Spin Doctor]

...Factualize your lessons...

What do you mean when you say this? Thanks.