Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[chadhargis]

It's amazing how many people will spend countless hours on the internet flaming the master who hold the keys to unlocking the answers they are seeking.

Because it's much easier to say something won't work than it is to try it and see for yourself.

Sadly, many people form opinions before they are qualified to have one.

I believe great teachers are like great chess players. They are always thinking several moves (lessons) ahead and once you have the fundamental knowledge they feel you need, they can begin building on top of it.

 

[Billnc]

My last student of the week was why I do this. Prepared for all portions of the lesson. His written exercises were completed, we discussed inversions and he was able to work out what was to be done on the guitar neck. He opened all books to the lesson and maintains his lesson in a book.

I got to do what I do well, he was enthusiastic about working out problems, I told him which bits we were working on he could apply to sax.

A lesson like that gives quite a similar rush of playing in front of a few thousand people.

 

[Billnc]

I believe great teachers are like great chess players. They are always thinking several moves (lessons) ahead and once you have the fundamental knowledge they feel you need, they can begin building on top of it.

I like that quote.

 

[chadhargis]

I like that quote.

I contributed something to the thread!

 

[Roy Vogt]

I contributed something to the thread!

You continually do....

 

[Commreman]

Glad to be back here-I've been over on another thread trying to explain to a bunch of ethically-challenged 20-somethings why putting someone else's music on bittorrent is stealing. Pheww! Scary!
I've used Commreman's article reprint (thanks, BTW) as a jumping off point for some of my students this week. I have them taking 2 of the arpeggio possibilities and playing them through Ornithology, Stella by Starlight, and I'll Remember April. I've chosen 357R/57R3 as my example. I've told them that this is NOT a performance exercise and they should not worry about speed, etc. I call this sort of thing "chewing on the changes"-you're just getting a taste of them by rolling them around and seeing what they'll do.
One thing that strikes me as I read the article is that it puts a lot of the musical responsibility on the student in a good way. It's totally easy to spend your life reading exercises, learning other people's licks and solos, and generally dealing with information presented to you in a complete way. This forces you to go within and find the information yourself. That strikes me as more valuable somehow.
I find that a lot of my students (and sometimes me) are uncomfortable with the fine books of Chuck Sher (The Improviser's Bass Method and the bass soloing book he co-wrote with Mark Johnson www.shermusic.com) because he will teach a concept and then tell you to go play in the big open field that is your bass neck and see what you can make of it-in short to improvise. It's a whole lot easier for me (and my students) to just deal with notes on a page, but this strikes me as extremely valuable.

Roy -

Please, the pleasure is all mine. If I can contribute to this thread by providing players with the article that really gives Jeff's excellent advice real context here, then I am happy to do so! If anyone else wants this, just shoot me a PM with your e mail address.

Ed

 

[Billnc]

The terminology I use when something is to be 'regarded' rather than 'performed' is to be able to play it where your fingers are no longer 'searching' for the correct note. Is this more or less correct? (Is this what you alluded to Roy, saying the same thing quite differently?)

I used to work sequential exercises out in my head, I find this pretty easy to do. I took Jeff's exercises and wrote them out. The beauty of this is the music is perfect, the neck is not, I've had to make some leaps that while looking at the neck might not makes sense, musically they do. I'm also doing more thinking writing them out than I would have realised. I started this to write one out for a lesson, then stared thinking, not really a good idea, it's an opportunity for the student to get some writing in, and familiarization with the staff.

 

[Roy Vogt]

The terminology I use when something is to be 'regarded' rather than 'performed' is to be able to play it where your fingers are no longer 'searching' for the correct note. Is this more or less correct? (Is this what you alluded to Roy, saying the same thing quite differently?)

That's exactly the same. Yes, indeed!

 

[Roy Vogt]

Roy - thanks for sticking up for Carol! I was reading that thread and feeling like kicking in teeth, but I knew it would be a senseless battle! .

I'm glad that mattered to someone-thank you! Sometimes the negativity and dragging down name players on TB reminds me of crabs in a bucket:
I used to go crabbing on the Gulf Coast of Texas. If you had one crab in a bucket, he would sooner or later crawl out. The minute you had the second one in there, you could relax. The minute one crab got to the top of the bucket the other one would reach up and pull it down.
A lot of times the senseless flame wars that erupt on here remind me of that. Sometimes it's just good to ignore that stuff and concentrate on getting out of the bucket.
Carol is a good friend of mine, a former teacher, and virtually my son Justin's godmother. You can bet I'll stick up for her...

 

[chadhargis]

You continually do....

I don't know about that.

I do know that I spent a lot of time studying the "homework" Adam gave me last night. Looking for logic in the modes. I found a few things that helped me understand them a LOT better.

1) The modes all use the same half step/whole step pattern, you simply start on a different "step". For example, Ionian is WWHWWWH where Dorian is WHWWWHW. You simply move the first whole step to the end. They just keep shuffling the first step to the end.

2) Lydian and Mixolydian only differ from Ionian by a raised 4th and a flatted 7th respectively

3) Dorian, Aeolian, & Phygian all have flatted 7ths (I may be using the wrong term...but that's what it looks like) and flatted 3rds with a b6, and b2 respectively for Aeolian and Phygian.

4) Locrian is all flatted except the root and the 4th.

My assignment is to learn all these modes, then begin to apply them starting on the lowest string, on the lowest fret and working my way across both octaves across the neck (I play a 5 string) and over the length of the fretboard until I run out of frets.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm glad that mattered to someone-thank you! Sometimes the negativity and dragging down name players on TB reminds me of crabs in a bucket:
I used to go crabbing on the Gulf Coast of Texas. If you had one crab in a bucket, he would sooner or later crawl out. The minute you had the second one in there, you could relax. The minute one crab got to the top of the bucket the other one would reach up and pull it down.
A lot of times the senseless flame wars that erupt on here remind me of that. Sometimes it's just good to ignore that stuff and concentrate on getting out of the bucket.
Carol is a good friend of mine, a former teacher, and virtually my son Justin's godmother. You can bet I'll stick up for her...

carol and i had words on her website, and as many can attest on here she can be extremely mean spirited when she wants to be. but doggone it, that lady is super talented, plays her ass off, forgotten more about music than many of us know, came up with the first books for learning electric bass that weren't just retreads of guitar books, and as nasty as she was to me many times over, i am still a fan. and she doesn't deserve to be stolen from.

 

[ryco]

It seems to me you should have your own "Ask a Pro" page here at TalkBass.

Funny you say that but there is and for a long time. Eight pros in total including Adam Nitti, Janak Gwizdala, Todd Johnson, just to name a few. Click the Bass Guitar link on the home page then scroll down. Its there with sponsored forums, G.A.S. station and classifieds.

LOL! I know about the "Pro" columns, FF - I was recommending Jeff look into starting one up himself!

Re-reading my post I see how it could be read as you did!
I'm not very good at communicating ideas verbally - I *am* a husband after all!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Sorry Jeff, me writing "..Diss'ing Mus Ed" was just a pun (maybe not that great a pun) I was trying to get 2 meanings out of one word (discussing good methods & maybe "dissing" the not so good )

You are fine and it is OK. I do walk a sensitive line because peoples feelings are involved. But as long as I generalize principles and not mention any names, then either one falls into the definitions that I make or one does not. The amusing thing is how some have identified themselves with ease, almost wishing that people knew that they didn't support a music education, but supported learning via methods that alluded to music, but actually didn't include it. I will always warn people away from studying with these kinds of methods, and I will really sound the alarm when these people defend non-musical approaches as valid.

It still interests me how some guys haven't been able to separate art from academia, and cannot recognize the true sources of where playing skills come from. Some defend their positions from passionate feelings, not from any musical logic because music doesn't enter into their comments. But, lessons for performance reasons do, and this is how I know that some still don't get it about what and how to learn how to play.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Best post yet Jeff.. I think you are getting your point across

Thanks John. I appreciate it!

And I appreciate all of you who have been so kind and open with me. It wasn't this way on Talkbass for a while. People were not polite, in fact a couple were the direct opposite and (as Don Corleone said) "That I do not forgive!" They are permanently blocked and my back is turned, no matter how carefully they try to tread. Their true colors have been shown!

But, most everybody here has always been the opposite since day one. You guys have been so cool, open to discuss things whether you agreed with me or not. Thanks to one and all for this generous interaction with me. You have been decent people from day one and I will help you all as much as I can due to your kindness! You guys are great!

 

[Jim Campbell]

You are fine and it is OK. I do walk a sensitive line because peoples feelings are involved. But as long as I generalize principles and not mention any names, then either one falls into the definitions that I make or one does not. The amusing thing is how some have identified themselves with ease, almost wishing that people knew that they didn't support a music education, but supported learning via methods that alluded to music, but actually didn't include it. I will always warn people away from studying with these kinds of methods, and I will really sound the alarm when these people defend non-musical approaches as valid.

It still interests me how some guys haven't been able to separate art from academia, and cannot recognize the true sources of where playing skills come from. Some defend their positions from passionate feelings, not from any musical logic because music doesn't enter into their comments. But, lessons for performance reasons do, and this is how I know that some still don't get it about what and how to learn how to play.

sounds like it may be time to enter the fray gloves off and write the definitive jb method book(s)/dvd(s)

 

[chadhargis]

You are fine and it is OK. I do walk a sensitive line because peoples feelings are involved.

These days we live in the "United States of the Offended". It never ceases to amaze me how easily offended some people are. I have to admit, sometimes it's just plain funny.

 

[RWRLV]

" Some defend their positions from passionate feelings, not from any musical logic because music doesn't enter into their comments. But, lessons for performance reasons do, and this is how I know that some still don't get it about what and how to learn how to play."

I'm not looking to start a war or rag on Billy. He is for sure one of my idols like Jeff is but commentary like at the 1:50 mark may be why. Hence why I am glad a guy like Jeff is here for us.

 

[JeffBerlin]

These days we live in the "United States of the Offended". It never ceases to amaze me how easily offended some people are. I have to admit, sometimes it's just plain funny.

I've read a few holocaust revisionist articles on the net, plus some white supremeists' comments. You just have to turn your back on these guys, people who will go to war on the net with people who don't agree with them. It has happened here on Talkbass, and my back is turned, permanently.

 

[JeffBerlin]

" Some defend their positions from passionate feelings, not from any musical logic because music doesn't enter into their comments. But, lessons for performance reasons do, and this is how I know that some still don't get it about what and how to learn how to play."

I'm not looking to start a war or rag on Billy. He is for sure one of my idols like Jeff is but commentary like at the 1:50 mark may be why. Hence why I am glad a guy like Jeff is here for us.

I just heard Billy's comment. It actually make sense when you see that he is discussing a self-taught musician's approach to playing. Live gigs teach more more hands-on reality about live playing. The problem is that many live players can't play that well and have no idea about what to do about this.

If anybody is aiming toward an academic life, you will learn more about MUSIC in way less time than you will learn on a gig. But you will learn more about performing from a gig than you ever will than when you practice music.

I guess that the bottom line reality is this: A guy studying great music can still do a gig. But a gigging musician can't play in 12 keys and really doesn't know their instrument outside of a few songs.

 

[sedgwick1489]

sounds like it may be time to enter the fray gloves off and write the definitive jb method book(s)/dvd(s)

Jeff - have you thought about re-publishing your Chord Tone System book you did back in the 80's? That's a great book man, I've still got my original copy with cassette tape! I've gotten a lot of mileage from it. From the discussion here, it sounds like others would dig it also.