Jeff Berlin fired by Frank Zappa

[Baryonyx]

I believe it's good to check out the top players in any category. Even if the category itself isn't your bag. You might discover something you like. You might learn something, even if you don't like the performance as a whole. I can appreciate a great vocal from an opera singer, even though I don't like opera in general.

A fair point, though I have listened to the blues greats without finding much to dig or take away from it. I guess it never hurts to keep your ears open, though I did once have to sit through some really bad blues. Jonny A opening for Joe Satriani. That was the only time I've found an opener absolutely awful (though seeing Robert Fripp live was pretty close, he was absolutely dire too and should have left the stage hanging his head after the show he put on).

 

[MrBorisSpider]

My opinion: Zappa paid a standard rate for sidemen. Jeff Berlin knew this and was arrogant enough to think he deserved more than anyone else. Zappa told him to walk. End of story.

 

[Guest043]

hes a good player, but an idiot..

 

[Zappstorius]

I don't remember that, but I guess I'm as fallible as everyone else... I have the book so I'll check it out, could you tell me what page it's on?

yeah, i've heard Rubber Shirt, i'm one of those people who's heard everything FZ ever released... to be honest I prefer the stuff where the people on the recording all listened to each other during the performance... that 'xenochrony' or whatever the hell he called it was an interesting experiment but not really my thing

Page 164 - Under "The Anthropology of Rock N Roll"

But it says that Bassists are "often failed guitarists-who got demoted to bass in a garage somewhere when they were 13"

 

[fishtx]

A fair point, though I have listened to the blues greats without finding much to dig or take away from it. I guess it never hurts to keep your ears open, though I did once have to sit through some really bad blues. Jonny A opening for Joe Satriani. That was the only time I've found an opener absolutely awful (though seeing Robert Fripp live was pretty close, he was absolutely dire too and should have left the stage hanging his head after the show he put on).

wow...you found Johnny A to be "awful"????...I think Johnny A is a fantastic player, with great tone, great dynamics, and amazing chops. His instrumental version if "Wichita Lineman" is IMO beautiful. I've seen him many times...and really find it hard to imagine someone that appreciates musicial styles would find anything he does to be "awful". It may not be something you listen to...but to find it "awful" just doesn't sit right with me.

And you say you would "walk out" without even listening to Johnny Winter. You sound like you are in a very narrow tunnel when it comes to musical styles...

BTW, maybe I'm missreading your comments...but you sound rather arrogant and condescending, and I looked at your profile...it says you are 19... so I've got to ask...other than jazz, what styles and players "do" you appreciate?

 

[zombywoof5050]

Ahh, give him a break...If he'd been there back in '78 at the age of 18, I doubt he would've actually left the JW concert early. It was perhaps Winter's most popular era when he was playing the large halls, and if he'd grown up at that time he would most probably have a greater appreciation of blues music/musicians.

Edited to add: Heck, I only played guitar when I saw that Johnny Winter/Weather Report show, and never even picked up a bass until two years later in '80.

 

[fishtx]

Sorry...After I reread what I posted it sounds like I'm a bit condescending as well. I apologize...

 

[Hoover]

to be honest I prefer the stuff where the people on the recording all listened to each other during the performance... that 'xenochrony' or whatever the hell he called it was an interesting experiment but not really my thing

Just curious: would "xenochrony" still not really be your thing if you didn't know you were listening to "xenochrony" ?

IOW, is it the concept which you don't enjoy? or is it the execution?

And regardless of which answer you chose, how do you know when you're listening to it?

Plenty of recordings were made with musicians unable (either intentionally or otherwise) to hear their co-conspiritors in real time, but not all of these recordings necessarily call attention to that fact. Likewise, a painfully awful lot of music sounds like the musicians couldn't hear one another, when in fact they were all in the room at the same time playing together (sic).

 

[prattguy]

A fair point, though I have listened to the blues greats without finding much to dig or take away from it. I guess it never hurts to keep your ears open, though I did once have to sit through some really bad blues. Jonny A opening for Joe Satriani. That was the only time I've found an opener absolutely awful (though seeing Robert Fripp live was pretty close, he was absolutely dire too and should have left the stage hanging his head after the show he put on).

Bashing Robert Fripp?

Hehehe, you´re young...no doubt about it!

 

[brianrost]

How on earth did those two bands end up on the same bill? Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum! I have just realised how ridiculous it would be to try and do that!

I saw these bills in 1972:

Dr. John the Night Tripper (opener)
J. Geils Band
Alice Cooper (headliner)

Peter Frampton (opener)
Mahavishnu Orchestra
J. Geils Band (headliner)

Other interesting 70s show lineups I remember:

Dr. Hook opening for Emerson, Lake and Palmer
A folksinger (forgotten his name) opening for Alice Cooper
Yes opening for Grand Funk Railroad
A trained monkey act opening for Captain Beefheart

Anyway, I think multiband bills were a lot more interesting back then. They didn't always work, but some were real ear-openers.

 

[fishtx]

I saw Jimmy Buffet and the Coral Reefer Band open for Zappa...Back in those days they mixed and matched genres all the time...

 

[Hoover]

Bashing Robert Fripp?

Hehehe, you´re young...no doubt about it!

Not to totally derail this thread, but:

I've been a Fripp/King Crimson fan since I was a teenager. I'm 47 years old. Seen Crimson live 4 or 5 times, seen Fripp's "Evening Of Music And Lecture" and just last year saw Fripp & Adrian Belew perform as ProjeKct Six (their guitar & V-Drums duet). And -- not that this should really matter, but what the heck -- I've got two degrees in music.

And that ProjeKct Six show gave me enough fodder to bash Fripp for the next 10 years easily.

Worst. Concert. Ever.

Tasteless, insensetive, unimaginative, egocentric, and banal. Too irritating to be called "wallpaper" but too directionless and puerile to be called "music".

To paraphrase a snippet from Fripp's own Exposure album, it had none of the qualities of his music that I admire. Had it been a couple of junior high school aged kids wanking in their bedroom I would perhaps have a more charitible opinion of the resultant garbage...but this was two consumate professionals with an exemplary pedigree. And in 50 seemingly interminable minutes they managed to forfeit any musical credibility they had earned with that pedigree.

So in short: Bashing Robert Fripp (or any artist) is not necessarily a sign of youth or ignorance. Sometimes it's just a sign of having seen through the emperor's new clothes. Or having been in the wrong place at the right time.

And now back to our regularly scheduled Jeff Berlin vs. Frank Zappa discussion...

 

[john turner]

Meh, blues isn't really my bag John.

not mine either, but gotta recognize a master at their art.

 

[john turner]

There are also some great unofficial Zappa bios that while give him the credit he's due also point out his faults like any great man has. For example, the reason FZ brought recording equipment with him on every tour (a hefty task in the pre-ProTools days) was not to document all the shows, but to recording soundchecks where the band would work out new material. By the time they had it down, Zappa would use these tracks as the "bed" tracks for his next album and not have to re-record them in the studio and saving himself the cost of paying his hardworking musicians. :scowl:

I fully admit that Zappa was a genius like many have said... but he was still part of humanity, and had the same flaws as many others.

so he didn't pay the guys for their soundchecks? the fact that he was using live soundchecks as bed tracks i always thought was awesome - even the studio albums were "live" in a sense. it's not like he was part of a "band", in that he was robbing someone of royalties - all the stuff was his, and his responsibility. regardless of whether the guys playing on it got paid for their playing in a studio or paid for their playing live, they were paid for their playing.

don't get me wrong, sure, zappa was human and had some personality quirks, but the fact that he tried to stretch his dollar was not something to berate him about. more than any other musician i can think of, he was the sole author of his career, and his success, and if he was a shrewd businessman, i don't think that's something to fault him for.

 

[john turner]

hey folks, let's not interrogate folks for their opinions, or try to trivialize them just because they have the good fortune of still being teenagers. that's not really that respectful, and respect is Rule 1 here at tb.

thanks.

 

[Baryonyx]

wow...you found Johnny A to be "awful"????...I think Johnny A is a fantastic player, with great tone, great dynamics, and amazing chops. His instrumental version if "Wichita Lineman" is IMO beautiful. I've seen him many times...and really find it hard to imagine someone that appreciates musicial styles would find anything he does to be "awful". It may not be something you listen to...but to find it "awful" just doesn't sit right with me.

And you say you would "walk out" without even listening to Johnny Winter. You sound like you are in a very narrow tunnel when it comes to musical styles...

BTW, maybe I'm missreading your comments...but you sound rather arrogant and condescending, and I looked at your profile...it says you are 19... so I've got to ask...other than jazz, what styles and players "do" you appreciate?

I'm not one to form opinions in ignorance, and I think the less you know about a subject, the less you should say about it until you're confident you can comment accurately and insightfully on it. Now, it's fair to say that the majority of music that I listen to is fusion. To me, it's like a natural progression of my musical tastes. I have searched through so many genres looking for the things that interest me. I've always thought of fusion as being "musicians music" at times, but this does not bother me. I'm a musician, so that doesn't bother me. However, despite this, I'm often told I have the most random music taste ever. My two favourite albums are "Hold your Fire" by Rush and "Graceland" by Paul Simon. Anything with some decent musicianship and a catchy tune, I'll listen to and give it a fair hearing.

But as for "Johnny A", never before have I been so unimpressed with a live show. I think the fact that he was supporting Joe Satriani was what made it so offensive, but even still...

We were treated to a set of Johnny's egotistical, emotionless wanking and blues jamming. His tone was godawaful, a screeching Gibson cacophony. I was that close to the front that I was made painfully aware it was his tone that sucked, not the acoustics of the room (by comparison, Satch and Dave LaRue sounded amazing). His playing was dull, ambling and devoid of sensitivity or dynamics. He seemed detached from his lazy and nonchalant backing band, and at a particular low point, repeated the same dire lick over and over again as the chords took their natural progression, and managed to slip behind the beat making for a shambolic and embarassing moment. When the blues assault took a breather, he tried flogging his records via the mircophone, but was greeted by several audience members telling him to "**** off", that he was a "****" and that Satch should sack him. Add to this that his bassist was awful and sounded like he was playing through a pillow (again, he was using Bongos and LaRue used them throughout the night as well and sounded amazing, so it's not just a case of the bass sounding awful through the PA). Johnny's drummer was also irritating and distasteful, and the entire set was a train wreck.

Bashing Robert Fripp?

Hehehe, you´re young...no doubt about it!

Again, Robert Fripp is someone that, with the credentials he has, deserves a fair chance from any music listener. However, seeing him as the opening set at G3 was awful. He sat on a stool, fiddling away with his guitar and made some poor, amateurish ambient music. Someone had clearly misjudged something or other at soundcheck, because every now and then he would hit a harmonic and let it ring, and such was a piercing quality of the tone that everyone in the audience put their fingers in their ears. Besides satisfying himself engaging in his self-indulgent tripe, he made nothing of any musical value then. During quieter moments, the crowd were shouting at him, telling him he sucked, that he should "**** off" and to "Bring out Stevie Vai". As his agonisingly long set drew to a close, a chorus of booing and obscene gestures came from the crowd (mostly behind me as I was in the 4th row at that show). Fripp looked visibly shaked and shuffled off the stage without even thanking the audience for putting up with that charade.

He returned for the G3 jam at the end of the night, but sat at the back of the stage, obscured to the entire right hand side of the audience by sitting behind an amp (I could see him on the left). He took about two short solos. That was a good thing though, it gave Satch and Vai more time to let rip and the less we heard of Fripp, the better.

 

[fishtx]

OK, well I guess we will agree to disagree...I've seen Johnny A several times, and never experienced anything even remotely like what you have stated (ie egotistical, emotionaless wanking). so...we will move on...back to Zappa...

 

[darth-bass]

lol so what do you really think of Fripp? He is hit or miss as far as I am concerned. Some of his stuff is really good, some of his "experimental" stuff not so much. But I can appreciate the fact that on the journey towards making really important revalent music some failed musical experiments/train wrecks of a live show are going to happen from time to time.

I always keep in mind when listening to music I do not like that Tchaikovsky's "Rites of Spring" was received probabaly even more harshly by its inital audience than the aforementioned review our esteemed blues hating teenager colleagues review of Fripp. Rites of Spring is now widley considered one of the most important pieces of music ever composed.....
...Music is art: it is supposed to challenge, to call into question what came before it-Simply stated that is how music as an artform evolves. Zappa understood this to be sure.

As for not liking the blues....well you are young. Live a little more: Try some things and fail at them, have some more loves go bad, see cherised places and people pass away into the realm of memory. And then we will talk.

 

[Hoover]

I always keep in mind when listening to music I do not like that Tchaikovsky's "Rites of Spring" was received probabaly even more harshly by its inital audience than the aforementioned review our esteemed blues hating teenager colleagues review of Fripp. Rites of Spring is now widley considered one of the most important pieces of music ever composed.

First of all, it was composed by Stravinsky, not Tchaikovsky. And not to nit-pick, but "Le Sacre du Printemps" translates as "The Rite Of Spring", not "Rites"

But more importantly, the reason "The Rite Of Spring" is indeed widley considered one of the most important pieces of music ever composed has nothing to do with the fact that it was initially met with disdain. Rather, it is important because upon subsequent listening, study, analysis, and absorbtion into Western culture it has shown itself to be a very deep, technically sophisticated and rigorously structured piece that still maintains a visceral grasp on inate human emotions. iow, it survives scrutiny on any number of levels: If you study the score meticulously it displays an exacting command of musical language; but if you just kick back, close your eyes & listen, it impacts you directly without calling attention to the details of its construction.

20 or 30 or 100 years from now if anyone bothers to listen, study, & analyze Robert Fripp's music, it is highly unlikely that all but one or two (if any) pieces will display even a remotely similar level of achievement.

(edit: btw, I think it's important to note that by most accounts the riot that broke out at "The Rite Of Spring"s debut was more a reaction to Nijinsky's choreography than to Stravinsky's music.)

 

[budman]

I went to one of Jeff's one week intensives several years ago. There was a framed Zappa chart hanging on the wall of the school. I can't remember which song it was. Jeff said that Frank gave him this chart and told him to learn the part for their recording session. Jeff didn't look at the chart until he got home. Upon closer inspection it turned out to be a guitar part with solos all written out. Jeff learned the part figuring Frank knew what he wanted. Jeff returned and they were going over the parts. Frank stopped everything and asked Jeff what he was playing. Jeff handed him the chart and Frank then realized he had given him the wrong chart. He gave Jeff the bass chart and they kept going. Frank stopped them again and gave him back the guitar chart stating that he liked it better.

At least that's how I remember the story being told to me by Jeff.