Jeff Berlin fired by Frank Zappa

[Baryonyx]

Jeff just seems to be one of those "all or nothing" players who would think nothing of tackling a guitar chart if asked. I sometimes forget what a monstrous talent he is!

 

[cowsgomoo]

Robert Fripp gets my respect for shagging Toyah

can't say I like his music though

 

[zombywoof5050]

Jeff Berlin once said in an interview that FZ's bass parts were some of the hardest he's ever had to learn.

 

[cowsgomoo]

If you study the score meticulously it displays an exacting command of musical language; but if you just kick back, close your eyes & listen, it impacts you directly without calling attention to the details of its construction.

it's not often I'm moved to say this on Talkbass, but that's a really good insight/observation... The Rite was about nature & mating rituals, human sacrifice and pagan festivities... the music HAD to be radically different to anything that preceded it, because it was portraying radically different things... it has stylistic and thematic precedents in Debussy's 'La Mer' and in Russian folk music, but still exists in isolation

the weird thing is that nothing since The Rite Of Spring really sounds much like it.... not even Stravinsky's later work sounds much like it

and also applies to a lot of Frank's music too... you can appreciate it's construction, or you can you just let the music hit you without thinking about all that (and you get the impression Frank explored a lot of musical avenues that no-one else is likely to follow him down)

 

[cowsgomoo]

Just curious: would "xenochrony" still not really be your thing if you didn't know you were listening to "xenochrony" ?

IOW, is it the concept which you don't enjoy? or is it the execution?

And regardless of which answer you chose, how do you know when you're listening to it?

Plenty of recordings were made with musicians unable (either intentionally or otherwise) to hear their co-conspiritors in real time, but not all of these recordings necessarily call attention to that fact. Likewise, a painfully awful lot of music sounds like the musicians couldn't hear one another, when in fact they were all in the room at the same time playing together (sic).

truthfully, probably the concept... the idea that musicians at one time actually meant those examples of interplay & bouncing around of phrases etc excites me.. I like to hear interaction, and the thought that any kind of interaction between parts might be accidental or co-incidental just excites me less... just like the music played by a fantastically talented band could often be played equally well by a sequencer, the idea that humans played it does make a difference to how I feel about it, and I can't deny that

that's not all I like, but if you have excellent musicians like Terry Bozzio and Patrick O'Hearn, why not have them play something together?

 

[oldrocker]

Anyway, I think multiband bills were a lot more interesting back then. They didn't always work, but some were real ear-openers.

These shows were interesting:

Billy Joel - Opens
Captain Beefheart - Special Guest
J Geils Band - Headliner

Roland Kirk
Tower Of Power
Santana

Flo and Eddie
Ike and Tina Turner

 

[Sneckumhaw]

20 or 30 or 100 years from now if anyone bothers to listen, study, & analyze Robert Fripp's music, it is highly unlikely that all but one or two (if any) pieces will display even a remotely similar level of achievement.

Crimson's best will likely survive as well as ANY from the rock/prog era.

 

[Barkless Dog]

Fripp will stand the threshold of time, not so much for his guitar work but the iconic work King Crimson has produced, all works pretty much brilliant to after the 90's.

Fripps work with tape loops stands alone to give him a spot. He has influences so many people.

I saw Fripp free in the 80's in a small record store in Cleveland. It was just him and two tape machines about ten feet apart. He was amazing as well as a really humble person (when I met him then)

People often overlook Zappa's work with GFR. I think Good Singing Good Playing was one of their better LP's. Zappa stole the show on "Out To Get You". You can hear the Zappa influence in both some of the doo whop influenced songs as well as the potty humor Big buns.

 

[Risor]

he should have hired jaco.

Maybe Jaco was not so arrogant as Jeff, but he still was Supernova

 

[Gil Irwin]

I have never heard a single Zappa tune. Most people just say it's "different".

Lots more here.

 

[srptopdog]

There are also some great unofficial Zappa bios that while give him the credit he's due also point out his faults like any great man has. For example, the reason FZ brought recording equipment with him on every tour (a hefty task in the pre-ProTools days) was not to document all the shows, but to recording soundchecks where the band would work out new material. By the time they had it down, Zappa would use these tracks as the "bed" tracks for his next album and not have to re-record them in the studio and saving himself the cost of paying his hardworking musicians. :scowl:

Interesting. I was heavily into Zappa years ago.

Actually, it is very costly to cart recording equipment to every show. I'm fairly sure Frank was cutting 48 tracks at that time as the norm, and back in the day we're talking about moving two very large 2-inch tape machines. They didn't have HD recording back then. After the machines arrived at each show each input channel would have to calibrated to "O" vu by hand using a test tone generator. Then the machines have to locked-up, so they run in synch. It's likely the live sound people weren't managing this, since I'm guessing they had their hands full. So, figure the cost of moving and maintaining two (maybe even three, for one back-up), 24-track 2" machines; let's say one full-time engineer/tech; and all of the tape; and you've got a very expensive project to manage. Much more costly then paying great musicians to record in the studio.

At that time Frank was recording every show. 2" tape running at 30 ips only yields about 30 minutes of recording time (times 2 for 48 tracks). I'm fairly sure I remember 2" costing about $80.00/reel. 8 reels for a two hour show? Oh yes, not to mention the cost and labor of cataloging all of the shows. BTW, as I understand it, he recorded the shows, not just the soundchecks.

Rather than to save money, I believe Frank knew that the best musical performances were captured through the magic of playing live. After a tour he would listen to each show and cull the best takes. Then (as you say, using some tracks as a "bed"), he would then overdub when/where needed, and/or to fix any problem parts (a bad note, something out of tune, re-do vocals - whatever).

Now, I'm not sticking up for Frank's integrity or lack of, since I don't know the man, but I did want to shed some light on another aspect of how Frank worked at certain times in his career. I think in this particular case he was putting the music first, regardless of expense.

My .02 cents, fwiw.

Salvatore ~

 

[Barkless Dog]

In his biography, he said the most expensive he said was hiring an orchestra as they had to be paid union rates of $15 an hour? for 50+ musicians who he said were required breaks but would go and get drunk, then come back late and he still had to pay for their time.

He said that is why not a lot of people hire complete orchestras. He said his work with the London symphony nearly broke him.

 

[kurosawa]

Zappa was legendary for being a perfectionist and very hands-on regarding all aspects of his Music. Apparently, this attitude extended right down to the way the stagehands did their job.

In the early 70's I attended a Concert at Long Island NY's, Nassau Coliseum. Zappa & The Mothers' were Performing on a Double-Bill with John McLaughlin & the Mahavishnu Orchestra.

Anyway, early on in the Mothers Performance, Zappa became annoyed with the job that the Lighting Crew was doing. Apparently, they weren't properly Spotlighting Ruth Underwood, during one of her solos. Truthfully, with the Frenzied pace of the show...none in the audience would've known. But that didn't matter to Frank...he knew; and that was all that mattered. In fact it mattered to the point of distraction. He just couldn't let it slide.

In the middle of the solo he started to verbally blast the crew for their error, telling them to get their act together. Annoyance soon begot anger, which morphed into bewildered rage over their incompetence. The harried lighting crew was getting more and more flustered as the needling/badgering continued. Apparently, totally bewildered, they started to guess with the lighting, which really ticked off Frank, pushing him over the edge.

...put the XXXX spotlight where it belongs...put the light on Underwood....put the XXXX on Ruth... Ruth... Ruth Underwood, you know, Ruth...finally he said: Ruth, the one with the XXXX T-ts !
The audience was momentarily stunned, it fell into this eerie shocked silence. Then, a buzz started to swell, and finally the place erupted. It was carnival time ! It was Zappa being Zappa, and we were there.

The crew eventually figured out where to place the light, and the concert continued without further incident. He was One of a kind. It was always his singular vision.
So, yeah, I can see how it was his way or the highway, when it came to his Music. Deal with it or leave. I guess Jeff left.

*** WARNING, VERY DEAD THREAD RESURRECTION ***

Yeah, that was a GREAT concert, wasn't it? Leo Kottke opened and sounded awful with the bad acoustics.

I just remember him harrassing Ruth "Show your t*ts!" over and over until she lifted up her sweater.

And before him, Mahavishnu came on (he owned a vegetarian restaurant in Queens, first no smoking restaurant I'd ever been to, don't know if you ever ate there, great food but I always seemed to miss the nights he showed up unannounced and played with his wife), and when asked for a minute of silence out of respect for the music, the crowd shouted "F*ck you!" repeatedly as the band stood, heads bowed, for an agonizingly long full minute, then BLAM! They launched into "Meeting of the Spirits" and blew EVERYONE away.

I didn't see how Zappa could follow THAT, and though he couldn't match their searing energy, yeah he was virtuosic and funny as hell, too. Flo and Eddie, what a pair. You probably remember the quote on his first 1966 album where some management type says maybe the Mothers could be as big as the Turtles. It must have been a real triumph for Zappa to have the Turtles in his employ singing "Eleanor" at that gig.

That was May 18, 1973 according to the web.

Set list:

1. The Dog Breath Variations
2. Uncle Meat
3. Fifty-Fifty
4. Montana
5. Improvisation
6. Dupree's Paradise
7. Inca Roads
8. Cosmik Debris
9. Don't Eat the Yellow Snow
10. Nanook Rubs It
11. St. Alfonzo's Pancake Breakfast
12. Father O'Blivion
13. King Kong
14. Chunga's Revenge
15. Mr. Green Genes

Saw him a week before at Stony Brook where he was working up the Coliseum show. Lots of changes. He brought out a nerd kid, real young, and stuck him in front of a mic and had him run through some awful long mathematical proof or something as the band played. I can't find any record of that gig online.

 

[Ric5]

Ok, can someone explain to me why Frank would ever fire such an amazing musician? What happened exactly?

This is the same Jeff Berlin who got banned here at talkbass ... more than once ...

Sometimes great talent comes with great ego ...

 

[SAlcott]

If Jeff Berlin is so great, how come I never hear about anyone hiring him? Who has he played with, other than himself?

 

[markkoelsch]

Frank liked Scott, and he liked what Scott was doing and told him so. The rest of the band hated him, and he, them. That band basically self destructed as in, "The best band you never heard in your life". (From the Zappa book, as well). Yup, flaky artist types with attitudes sometimes get ugly quick. Old story.
Josh

Damned personality clashes. Too bad. Still, I think "The Best Band You Never Heard in your Life" is one of the greatest live records ever. That was such an amazing band...just awesome. I love the whacky, regae version of Stairway to Heaven, and everything else on the record.

 

[SlingBass4]

I heard that he was fired for playing the "Charlie Brown" theme.

Darn......NOW I have to clean my monitor

 

[king_biscuit]

Just about everything Zappa did definitely made sense, so I'm not sure what you mean. There was indeed a method to his madness.

+1, Frank was brilliant. Jeff's tone is so bad, that had to be part of the problem.

 

[JimmyM]

If Jeff Berlin is so great, how come I never hear about anyone hiring him? Who has he played with, other than himself?

Other than Zappa, Bill Bruford, Allan Holdsworth, Esther Philips, David Sancious, Scott Henderson, Kazumi Watanabe, Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman and Howe (better known as Yes but calling themselves that because Chris Squire owned the name).

He can be difficult, though, and that likely cuts into his hirings. Also, moving to Clearwater didn't exactly keep him in the thick of the music business.

 

[pnchad]

FZ was amazing and prolific and unyeilding and... and...

he was a testimony of what hard work and dedication will do for you as a musician

he was and industrious and persistant and creative, etc, etc

so, that being said, with ALL respect, he was not a musician except in the 'technical' sense

there's good reason why not one of his melodies survive as memorable or touching or exciting

even at the time I never wished I was in a FZ band. Way too disciplined & strict a style - very rigid and only enjoyable as a technical exercise

sorry but there's a reason a Jaco could never cohabitate with a FZ