Jeff Berlin fired by Frank Zappa

[cowsgomoo]

Zappa was not an egomaniac, he was not abusive, he was not in it for the money. His interest strictly was to explore music and try to eek out a living at it.

he was definitely what might be uncharitably called a 'control freak', but since when was that a bad trait in a composer??

composers are organisers... they organise sound for a living - control freakery is a somewhat essential characteristic - I know if I was paying thousands of dollars to have my music played correctly, I'd insist on it being done exactly my way too...

I know FZ encouraged spontaneous Dada-ist randomly unusual behaviour, but this is another symptom of control freakery... impose organisation on the profoundly disorganised

 

[Barkless Dog]

he was definitely what might be uncharitably called a 'control freak', but since when was that a bad trait in a composer??

composers are organizers... they organize sound for a living - control freaky is a somewhat essential characteristic - I know if I was paying thousands of dollars to have my music played correctly, I'd insist on it being done exactly my way too...

I know FZ encouraged spontaneous Dadaist randomly unusual behavior, but this is another symptom of control freaky... impose organization on the profoundly disorganized

This is true, but he made that clear to everyone up front. In his biography he said it had to be that way or you end up being a baby sitter or referee. Being a dictator was his way to control the situation with so many musicians coming & going.

 

[john turner]

I'd go to see that and stroll out after the opener!

and you'd miss out. johnny winter's awesome.

 

[john turner]

If anything Zappa was a selfless musician who pushed players and compositions, sometimes sitting out during whole sections or conducting, while people like Steve Via, Adrian Belew, George Duke stood in the spot light.

He frequently let other guitarist handle the guitar spot light, singers have the singing spot light. He was as selfless as a band leader as they come. He made no bones he was the boss, you work for Frank and he pushed you 110%. But he would look at musicians gifts or talents and write music to exploit and show case it- the Black Page Drum solo is example. Adrian Belew could not read music, but Zappa worked around that.

No Frank was not perfect, but I believe Frank was very fair.

http://idiotbastard.com/Interviews/TerryBozzio.htm



He payed his musicians out of his own pocket.



People should not be jumping to conclusions a certainly not forming a Zappa lynch mob.


Zappa was not an egomaniac, he was not abusive, he was not in it for the money. His interest strictly was to explore music and try to eek out a living at it.

frank was/is my own personal benchmark/hero as far as "egoless, serving the music composer" goes. every it of zappa's music i've heard, whether i liked it or not, i could not say that the music was not being served by every component element.

all the other crap about him is irrelevant, that he stepped on some inflated-ego dipwad's toes or nackered off some corporate fathead, nobody's ever gonna remember them - frank served the music and will be remembered.

i would have gone without pay, food and clothes to be in his band.

 

[tZer]

Another difficult thing about being human - some people are just plain brilliant. When us mere mortals of average intelligence interact with such brilliant people we sometimes are simply not able to "get it". Brilliant men, like Frank Zappa, are faced with 'dealing' with less than brilliant people who may not be able to fully appreciate where he's coming from or what he's trying to do. Attempting to explain himself to that sort of person had to be frustrating and at some point he probably simply said to himself, "Hey - I am going to lay it out there and those who get it will get it, those who don't, won't. If they don't but are willing to hang in there until it comes to be, cool. If they can't or won't, there's little I can do to change that."

Or something like that.

When I interact with very smart people I am often struck by how their personality can rub me the wrong way in the pursuit of a shared goal. I am one who sticks it out in spite of feeling like that person has "issues" or is hard to deal with at times.

Upon realizing that goal and sharing in the rewards of hanging in there and helping them achieve it, it makes one who appeared to be a person with an abrasive personality change to a person who's personality is tempered with the fact that sometimes their not going to be someone's favorite person.

 

[Baryonyx]

and you'd miss out. johnny winter's awesome.

Meh, blues isn't really my bag John.

 

[Alan Vorse]

A friend of a friend worked at a music store in Kansas City. They had Terry Bozzio come in and do a clinic. Bozzio was so impressed with the staff that he took them out to dinner after the clinic. Someone asked him to tell a Frank Zappa story.

Bozzio comes from a jazz backround. Heavily influenced by Tony Williams. So on the tour bus, he'd listen to Miles Davis on headphones. One day Frank asks him what he's listening to. Terry says "Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew." Frank rolled his eyes and started to walk away. Terry says "No this stuff is great you should hear it." Frank reluctantly listened for a few minutes and said "sounds like Mr. JazzMan loves his Wah Wah pedal!"

Later on that tour, the band had a night off and some jazz legend (Miles maybe?) happened to be playing in that city. Everybody in the band wanted to check it out and Frank once again reluctantly went with them. He didn't make it past the first song. They later found him down the street sitting in with a Holiday Inn lounge band!

 

[Bass Boy]

Later on that tour, the band had a night off and some jazz legend (Miles maybe?) happened to be playing in that city. Everybody in the band wanted to check it out and Frank once again reluctantly went with them. He didn't make it past the first song. They later found him down the street sitting in with a Holiday Inn lounge band!

That's a great story!

 

[Ian Perge]

Regarding the deal when the band broke up because of all the bashing against Scott Thunes...
I had read that Mike Kenneally was not in on the bashing and that thereafter both Kenneally and Thunes remained on FZ's payroll up until Frank died.

This is a bit of a misleading statement: Keneally and Thunes were on the Zappa Family's payroll not for an aborted tour 5 years before, but because they were both members of Dweezil's & Ahmet's then-band "Z". And Thunes also caused an uprising in that band when he threatened drummer Joe Travers with physical violence. After that he was out, and now-longtime Keneally bassist Bryan Beller joined the band (he played many a Berklee show with Travers while both attended).

There are also some great unofficial Zappa bios that while give him the credit he's due also point out his faults like any great man has. For example, the reason FZ brought recording equipment with him on every tour (a hefty task in the pre-ProTools days) was not to document all the shows, but to recording soundchecks where the band would work out new material. By the time they had it down, Zappa would use these tracks as the "bed" tracks for his next album and not have to re-record them in the studio and saving himself the cost of paying his hardworking musicians. :scowl:

I fully admit that Zappa was a genius like many have said... but he was still part of humanity, and had the same flaws as many others.

 

[Barkless Dog]

By the time they had it down, Zappa would use these tracks as the "bed" tracks for his next album and not have to re-record them in the studio and saving himself the cost of paying his hardworking musicians.

I was reading Bass Player mag abvout a session bassist who up front asks the producer what he want him to play. If he says you can play what ever you want, he stop and asks that if he is writing the bass line, that he get song credits and asks for a demo tape from the sesion as proof.

So many bass lines were "the song' that never the player never got credit or money for.

 

[zombywoof5050]

For instance, when asked what he thought of Jimi Hendrix, Frank simply said "now there's a guitarist that shouldn't do drugs".

let's face it, he had a point... in Jimi's case, doing drugs didn't appear to turn out especially well for him one night in September 1970

I agree, and I hope nobody thought I was bashing Frank. I was just using that as an example of how he could be. FZ is my favorite musician/composer of all time. I haven't always agreed with everything he's said, but that doesn't keep me from digging his music. I remember that for a few years (around mid 80's) I decided that FZ was too cynical, so I relegated myself to only listening to his instrumental music, then as I got older (and less naive perhaps) I learned to appreciate the cynical stuff and have since rekindled a much greater appreciation of his entire catalog.

 

[zombywoof5050]

Regarding the deal when the band broke up because of all the bashing against Scott Thunes...
I had read that Mike Kenneally was not in on the bashing and that thereafter both Kenneally and Thunes remained on FZ's payroll up until Frank died.

This is a bit of a misleading statement: Keneally and Thunes were on the Zappa Family's payroll not for an aborted tour 5 years before, but because they were both members of Dweezil's & Ahmet's then-band "Z". And Thunes also caused an uprising in that band when he threatened drummer Joe Travers with physical violence. After that he was out, and now-longtime Keneally bassist Bryan Beller joined the band (he played many a Berklee show with Travers while both attended).

Sorry, I didn't mean to be misleading, or to imply that they were still on the payroll from that ('88) tour (which I knew wasn't the case).

 

[zombywoof5050]

I was reading Bass Player mag abvout a session bassist who up front asks the producer what he want him to play. If he says you can play what ever you want, he stop and asks that if he is writing the bass line, that he get song credits and asks for a demo tape from the sesion as proof.

So many bass lines were "the song' that never the player never got credit or money for.

This reminds me of something I had read that came up between Jean Luc Ponty and Frank Zappa, Jean Luc wanted to get credit for his improvisations, and IIRC this may have been one of the reasons Jean Luc Ponty left the FZ band.

 

[Zappstorius]

no, he never said that.. and would never say anything so stupid... he valued bass players as much as an other musicians... the bass player after all is the guy you most interact with during your 10 minute guitar solo

people attribute all kinds of stupid quotations to Frank Zappa, just like they do to Groucho Marx... often they're not true

anyway, FZ is dead.. putting him on your 'shitlist' won't worry him too much

Actually FZ says EXACTLY that in his autobiography. But he is being very cynical at that part (well most of it) of the book. But why would someone be offended by that? He valued bassists as much as anyone else but he was a COMPOSER. He utilized different instruments/musicians as different tools to get whatever he was trying to get across to the audience. Have you ever listened to "Rubber Shirt", from the Shiek Yurbiouti album? It's a bass/drum solo...except they were recorded seperately, with nothing to do with each other and FZ mixed it together...pretty cool stuff.

By the way, he also ripped drummers, keyboardists, guitar players and musicians in general in the same paragraph...so at least we didn't get left out right???

 

[willgroove2]

speaking of Scott Thunes I have a book I picked up @ a used book store called"Interviews with really scary musicians"by thomas wictor.It has several Interviews with mostly bass player's Including a very long section with Scott Thunes. Thomas wictor used to writ for bass player mag and I remember seeing a very edited version of the same interview in there but this was the Whole interview plus the back story of what he had to go thru to get it.It's interesting,I had never really checked out any zappa but this book made me curious about Thunes playing and subsequently getting some Zappa stuff.

 

[X Wolf]

A friend of a friend worked at a music store in Kansas City. They had Terry Bozzio come in and do a clinic. Bozzio was so impressed with the staff that he took them out to dinner after the clinic. Someone asked him to tell a Frank Zappa story.

Bozzio comes from a jazz backround. Heavily influenced by Tony Williams. So on the tour bus, he'd listen to Miles Davis on headphones. One day Frank asks him what he's listening to. Terry says "Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew." Frank rolled his eyes and started to walk away. Terry says "No this stuff is great you should hear it." Frank reluctantly listened for a few minutes and said "sounds like Mr. JazzMan loves his Wah Wah pedal!"

Later on that tour, the band had a night off and some jazz legend (Miles maybe?) happened to be playing in that city. Everybody in the band wanted to check it out and Frank once again reluctantly went with them. He didn't make it past the first song. They later found him down the street sitting in with a Holiday Inn lounge band!

LoL....Thanks, Great story!

George

 

[cowsgomoo]

Actually FZ says EXACTLY that in his autobiography. But he is being very cynical at that part (well most of it) of the book. But why would someone be offended by that? He valued bassists as much as anyone else but he was a COMPOSER. He utilized different instruments/musicians as different tools to get whatever he was trying to get across to the audience. Have you ever listened to "Rubber Shirt", from the Shiek Yurbiouti album? It's a bass/drum solo...except they were recorded seperately, with nothing to do with each other and FZ mixed it together...pretty cool stuff.

By the way, he also ripped drummers, keyboardists, guitar players and musicians in general in the same paragraph...so at least we didn't get left out right???

I don't remember that, but I guess I'm as fallible as everyone else... I have the book so I'll check it out, could you tell me what page it's on?

yeah, i've heard Rubber Shirt, i'm one of those people who's heard everything FZ ever released... to be honest I prefer the stuff where the people on the recording all listened to each other during the performance... that 'xenochrony' or whatever the hell he called it was an interesting experiment but not really my thing

 

[darth-bass]

to be honest I prefer the stuff where the people on the recording all listened to each other during the performance... that 'xenochrony' or whatever the hell he called it was an interesting experiment but not really my thing

Not to go off subject too much, but if memory serves Roger Walter's of Pink Floyd arranged most of The Wall that way as well--right?
It pissed off his bandmates not knowing what everyone else was doing.

I fully admit that Zappa was a genius like many have said... but he was still part of humanity, and had the same flaws as many others

You will find that in most Genius's (and there are many distinct bodies of knowledge/skill sets in which an individual can transcend normal human thought/talent) these peoples flaws are magnified in much the same way as their talents. Being so good, smart, transcendental in that they do leads to deficits in other areas. Being a genius is a bane as well as a boon.

 

[Lazylion]

Meh, blues isn't really my bag John.

I believe it's good to check out the top players in any category. Even if the category itself isn't your bag. You might discover something you like. You might learn something, even if you don't like the performance as a whole. I can appreciate a great vocal from an opera singer, even though I don't like opera in general.

 

[Tao4Now]

There is a great Classic Album documentary where Ruth Underwood shows a piece of music Frank wrote out for her freehand, it was impeccable!

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you've read the autobiography, you'd know FZ would never refer to written notes as "music". To him, those were "dots on paper".