Jeff Berlin Speaks

[Brad Johnson]

Agreed.

 

[Sgt. Rock]

Agreed.

I always took Jeff Berlin's core message as "Never pay a teacher to teach you things like 'feel'. Pay to learn the elements of music, and develop your groove or feel *in* the actual music, away from your textbooks."

In that, I am certain that he was and is correct. But what do I know? I'm just one musician among many. Different strokes and all that.

I only know what *I* expect from a lesson when I hand over my dollar. That's where it starts and ends for me.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I always took Jeff Berlin's core message as "Never pay a teacher to teach you things like 'feel'. Pay to learn the elements of music, and develop your groove or feel *in* the actual music, away from your textbooks."

In that, I am certain that he was and is correct. But what do I know? I'm just one musician among many. Different strokes and all that.

I only know what *I* expect from a lesson when I hand over my dollar. That's where it starts and ends for me.

Unfortunately if you can't figure out a feel and shouldn't pay someone to teach you, where does that leave you?

 

[Sgt. Rock]

Unfortunately if you can't figure out a feel and shouldn't pay someone to teach you, where does that leave you?

Make friends and jam. Or apply to a trade school. Welders rake it in.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Make friends and jam. Or apply to a trade school. Welders rake it in.

Still may not address the issue.

 

[Mike Sorr]

I heard the episode of the "No Treble" podcast featuring Jeff Berlin, and he really does go into quite a lot of detail about his personal struggles and his walk through his own dark night of the soul as he refers to it. He's 63 now, so I guess it's never too late to acknowledge that you have some work to do on yourself. I agree with him that if you want to become a musical craftsman, you need to learn the mechanics. Just as a carpenter needs to understand the mechanics of his trade. However, I think that there needs to be a place for those weekend tinkerers who just want to make bird houses in their garage for pleasure. Not everyone has to be a master craftsman that can play anything from Afro-Cuban to Jazz fusion and beyond on command. Some people are content to play the music they love and have zero interest in going beyond the simple as long as they're enjoying themselves. Jeff seems to have a hard time wrapping his mind around the idea that not everyone is interested in putting in the kind of work it takes to play on a similar level to his.

Groove – Episode #14: Jeff Berlin

 

[fusionguy]

Jeff's such a bad ass musician that I think some of his problems come from the fact that he is dealing with a musical community (most bassists, particularly on electric) who have a low level of musical education in terms of harmony etc so his comments (admittedly often brusque) cause way more consternation than if he were a saxophonist or guitarist making the same sorts of arguments.

People like Richie Beirach, Joe Diorio, Pat Metheny and Dave Liebman have said pretty similar things but in part because the people they address are a lot more educated musically speaking it usually doesn't end as badly as it does with what he is likely to find with the "bass community." In their worlds, they are just seen as somewhat tough but well worth the effort and a little old school.

Jeff still asks Liebman for study materials for example and is used to a very different world. I can only imagine what a mofo like Liebman would seem like to some of the people on here.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Unfortunately if you can't figure out a feel and shouldn't pay someone to teach you, where does that leave you?

excellent point.

When I was teaching, I'd work with kids on feel but teach them all the rest of the stuff primarily. Even the scales / intervals, I pushed them to swing. I said "Always swing - never play anything straight - ever!". Not so great for heavy rock, I know - but I'm not a heavy rocker!

 

[Brad Johnson]

There is more than one way to make a living in the business. My problem remains with the one size fits all/everyone has the same goal when in fact everyone doesn't have the same goal and one size can't fit all. The very idea that "If you want to make a living you must do A, B, C, period" is great for folks who like to try to wrap things up in a nice box with a pretty bow on top. Unfortunately that sort of rigid thinking is problematic across a wide range of subjects here on Talkbass. It's amazing how many folks never even notice how rigid they are.

Budding musicians are individuals and I think any sort of education should at least acknowledge that and take it into consideration. My way or the highway is cool in the military or living with your parents, music doesn't have to be that way IME IMO. I'm not saying people need to be coddled, just don't treat everyone like a cardboard cutout... and understand that there's more than one way to approach many situations.

 

[mrufino1]

I heard the episode of the "No Treble" podcast featuring Jeff Berlin, and he really does go into quite a lot of detail about his personal struggles and his walk through his own dark night of the soul as he refers to it. He's 63 now, so I guess it's never too late to acknowledge that you have some work to do on yourself. I agree with him that if you want to become a musical craftsman, you need to learn the mechanics. Just as a carpenter needs to understand the mechanics of his trade. However, I think that there needs to be a place for those weekend tinkerers who just want to make bird houses in their garage for pleasure. Not everyone has to be a master craftsman that can play anything from Afro-Cuban to Jazz fusion and beyond on command. Some people are content to play the music they love and have zero interest in going beyond the simple as long as they're enjoying themselves. Jeff seems to have a hard time wrapping his mind around the idea that not everyone is interested in putting in the kind of work it takes to play on a similar level to his.

Groove – Episode #14: Jeff Berlin

This episode is so worth the listen. I learned a ton from it that I apply to my profession (social work). And he's right about learning the fundamentals. Now that he's saying it in a way that I am understanding, I get what he's been preaching. Check out his recent videos on YouTube, I am struggling with the video about just soloing with chord tones on c7-f7. I've been playing 25 years and played other instruments before that. He's been speaking to me for how many years and I haven't been listening?

I barely slap and don't tap, but I've been able to control volume, learn pop songs correctly, and stay out of the way of singers. Imagine when I couple that with a better understanding of the basics?

But I'm so happy for Jeff that he has found some peace. He really expressed some personal and painful stuff on that podcast and it is a reminder that behind every behavior is a reason and a history.

 

[blue4]

Jeff's such a bad ass musician that I think some of his problems come from the fact that he is dealing with a musical community (most bassists, particularly on electric) who have a low level of musical education in terms of harmony etc so his comments (admittedly often brusque) cause way more consternation than if he were a saxophonist or guitarist making the same sorts of arguments.

People like Richie Beirach, Joe Diorio, Pat Metheny and Dave Liebman have said pretty similar things but in part because the people they address are a lot more educated musically speaking it usually doesn't end as badly as it does with what he is likely to find with the "bass community." In their worlds, they are just seen as somewhat tough but well worth the effort and a little old school.

Jeff still asks Liebman for study materials for example and is used to a very different world. I can only imagine what a mofo like Liebman would seem like to some of the people on here.

I don't know if I agree that bassists are less musically educated as a group then guitarists.

 

[tubedude]

pleasure

Even a birdhouse can be constructed with artistic beauty. Sometimes that is expressed with great details and flourishes, and sometimes a more zen construction using the minimum materials and the least number of precise cuts. That said, it's still a birdhouse and whatever it looks like, it still serves the function of a birdhouse. If it pleases the builder, it's fine.

 

[Norwegian Bass]

The vibe I got from Jeff was that of a guy with a monster of an ego; who did not get his rightful place in the "Jaco/Stanley/Jeff trinity of bassdom" which I think hurt and dissapointed him big time. It's hard to think of yourself as a genius when the world don't care. Which is the whole thing about Jeff; he's a great technician and bass player; but he's a IMO a horrible musician. He's does not serve the music; he imposes himself onto it. At least that's what I'm hearing when I listen to him; but then again I haven't really heard that much, so don't take this as gospel, just my opinion. But his version of "Tears In Heaven"; I remember thinking that it's the most unmusical thing I've ever heard. It's on Rebecca Black Friday -esque level in it's inappropriateness. I think that reality has hit him, and he's adjusting and learning; which is great; and he'll probably become happier than perhaps he's ever been in his life. I did enjoy reading a lot of his articles in Bass Player when I was a kid; and I think he's a good academic, and can be a great educator for students who can deal with him.
Jaco also had ego problems which led to musical problems, which players didn't mind telling him; I think it was Hiram Bullock who told Jaco that he was overplaying and sabotaging and Jaco went: "I'm Jaco; goddamn it!" And Hiram went : "I know who you are, motherfncker! And right now you're stepping on your d!ck!" Hiram seemed like a cool dude!

 

[fusionguy]

The vibe I got from Jeff was that of a guy with a monster of an ego; who did not get his rightful place in the "Jaco/Stanley/Jeff trinity of bassdom" which I think hurt and dissapointed him big time. It's hard to think of yourself as a genius when the world don't care. Which is the whole thing about Jeff; he's a great technician and bass player; but he's a IMO a horrible musician. He's does not serve the music; he imposes himself onto it. At least that's what I'm hearing when I listen to him; but then again I haven't really heard that much, so don't take this as gospel, just my opinion. But his version of "Tears In Heaven"; I remember thinking that it's the most unmusical thing I've ever heard. It's on Rebecca Black Friday -esque level in it's inappropriateness. I think that reality has hit him, and he's adjusting and learning; which is great; and he'll probably become happier than perhaps he's ever been in his life. I did enjoy reading a lot of his articles in Bass Player when I was a kid; and I think he's a good academic, and can be a great educator for students who can deal with him.
Jaco also had ego problems which led to musical problems, which players didn't mind telling him; I think it was Hiram Bullock who told Jaco that he was overplaying and sabotaging and Jaco went: "I'm Jaco; goddamn it!" And Hiram went : "I know who you are, motherfncker! And right now you're stepping on your d!ck!" Hiram seemed like a cool dude!

Jeff Berlin is a horrible musician....who got gigs (in some cases for years) with Allan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin, Dave Liebman, Joe Diorio, Bill Bruford, Scott Henderson etc. Each of those guys is widely considered a master yet somehow they all hired a horrible musician.

You do realize how ridiculous that sounds, right? I think Jeff's parts on One of Kind by Bruford alone are pure gold.

Saying he is not your taste is one thing but you just sound ridiculous yourself writing that Jeff is a horrible musician.

I continue to think that part of Jeff's problem was really that he was interacting with people who have very limited understanding of music and engaging them instead of just blowing it off.

 

[fusionguy]

I don't know if I agree that bassists are less musically educated as a group then guitarists.

There are probably more hack guitarists (it's such a popular instrument so tons of people play it and play it poorly) but there are way more guitarists who can solo at a decent level over changes, have some lines (not just finger patterns) and understand harmony at a reasonable level than there are bassists who can say the same. That's just obvious; much of what passes for hotshot bass soloing is very old hat for average jazz or fusion guitarists and a lot of them are also obviously less threatened by a guy who can really solo.

Berlin was one of the first guys who took a lot of these elements seriously on electric in particular.

Some of the commentary here about Berlin goes way beyond the pale.

Like I said, admittedly he was a brusque guy.

But so was Joe Diorio, Metheny too at times, Dave Liebman, and many others who are mostly revered. The difference is also that the people they mostly addressed accept their authority and "old school" manner with fewer problems and I think it's because they are speaking to more serious musicians usually than most bassists who let's face it, are not the musical leaders of their groups with very few exceptions and usually don't push themselves in quite the same way beyond being solid rhythm section players (an important task to be sure).

 

[blue4]

I continue to think that part of Jeff's problem was really that he was interacting with people who have very limited understanding of music and engaging them instead of just blowing it off.

No his problem was that he was a jerk. It is possible to engage people of any level of understanding on any topic without going into a rage.

There are probably more hack guitarists (it's such a popular instrument so tons of people play it and play it poorly) but there are way more guitarists who can solo at a decent level over changes, have some lines (not just finger patterns) and understand harmony at a reasonable level than there are bassists who can say the same. That's just obvious; much of what passes for hotshot bass soloing is very old hat for average jazz or fusion guitarists and a lot of them are also obviously less threatened by a guy who can really solo

Disagree. Most solos on any instrument, especially guitar, is just recycled old hat from previous songs. I don't know why only bass players get singled out. People aren't threatened by his ability to solo, everyone I've seen fully admits his superior skills. They're actually threatened by the fact that he treats people like a@$holes.

Some of the commentary here about Berlin goes way beyond the pale.

He went there first, with people who are still members and with moderators who from what I've seen take their job seriously.

 

[Lee Moses]

The vibe I got from Jeff was that of a guy with a monster of an ego; who did not get his rightful place in the "Jaco/Stanley/Jeff trinity of bassdom" which I think hurt and dissapointed him big time. It's hard to think of yourself as a genius when the world don't care. Which is the whole thing about Jeff; he's a great technician and bass player; but he's a IMO a horrible musician. He's does not serve the music; he imposes himself onto it. At least that's what I'm hearing when I listen to him; but then again I haven't really heard that much, so don't take this as gospel, just my opinion. But his version of "Tears In Heaven"; I remember thinking that it's the most unmusical thing I've ever heard. It's on Rebecca Black Friday -esque level in it's inappropriateness.

Jeff Berlin is a horrible musician....who got gigs (in some cases for years) with Allan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin, Dave Liebman, Joe Diorio, Bill Bruford, Scott Henderson etc. Each of those guys is widely considered a master yet somehow they all hired a horrible musician.

You do realize how ridiculous that sounds, right? I think Jeff's parts on One of Kind by Bruford alone are pure gold.

Saying he is not your taste is one thing but you just sound ridiculous yourself writing that Jeff is a horrible musician.

I continue to think that part of Jeff's problem was really that he was interacting with people who have very limited understanding of music and engaging them instead of just blowing it off.

I didn't recall hearing Jeff's version of "Tears in Heaven," so I looked it up on YouTube, preparing to see how wrong you (@KennethB) were. But no, you were pretty much right on that. It is an interesting enough arrangement with a nice display of technique; but it takes a heartfelt song and transforms it into something pretty sterile. That said, his arrangement of "Dixie" is classic. He has certainly demonstrated time and again that he is certainly capable of being musical, so I see that version of "Tears in Heaven" as being an anomaly rather than typical.

So, generally speaking, I'd have to agree with fusionguy. While Jeff is pretty much a "lead bass" player, he is very capable of playing a bassline that drives the tune as well as solos and solo pieces that are very melodic.

 

[mrufino1]

I think it's important to keep in mind with comments about his actions towards others in the past that he has admitted to not handling it well and has apologized. He's making efforts to do better, and although it doesn't excuse what was done it's obvious there were deeper things going on with him than even he realized, so there is a reason, so forgiveness is in outfit and then moving forward.

If you watch his recent videos teaching some cord tone concepts his depth of knowledge and abilities as a teacher are undeniable. Whether you like his musical expression or not, that's been his point- academic is academic, how you use it is then up to you.

 

[Norwegian Bass]

Jeff Berlin is a horrible musician....who got gigs (in some cases for years) with Allan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin, Dave Liebman, Joe Diorio, Bill Bruford, Scott Henderson etc. Each of those guys is widely considered a master yet somehow they all hired a horrible musician.

You do realize how ridiculous that sounds, right? I think Jeff's parts on One of Kind by Bruford alone are pure gold.

Saying he is not your taste is one thing but you just sound ridiculous yourself writing that Jeff is a horrible musician.
.

Hey, I said it was only my opinion. Saying he's horrible IS saying that he's not to my taste; a strong dislike. I also said "IMO" "just my opinion" "don't take this as gospel "and admitted that I had limited exposure; so suck it up. I also specified that I define bass player and musician differently. A good musician should have song sensibility; Jeff Berlin's arrangement of Tears In Heaven is the total opposite of song sensibility; it's pretty much as bad as is gets. Total disregard for what the song is all about; and then imposing his own EGO onto it. He said he was inspired to do to soothe his son who was sick. Well, if I were his son; I'd feel worse! I'm half joking, so don't bitch about that too. I can come off as arrogant, but I'm not an a$shole. (Promise! )
All of the guys you've listed do not do it for me either; and I've even been to a McLaughlin concert!
I like a balance between the emotional and the intellectual in my music. Which is why I can't stand most jazz and punk rock, for instance.
That's what's different about Jaco; in say the solo in Havona or Donna Lee; both has great melody and he's very clear and he just makes sense; harmonically. Plus his phrasing and beautiful vibrato makes his lines emotionally satisfying. Also Jaco had good sound. Jeff do not.
Tal Wilkenfeld also has beautifully constructed solos. So it's not like I don't understand jazz harmony. I'm just not big on running through a catalog of licks to appear clever.

I continue to think that part of Jeff's problem was really that he was interacting with people who have very limited understanding of music
.

This I agree with; he seemed to be easily frustrated by players who wasn't at close to his own level in knowledge of harmony; or whatever music theory concepts; in his vast knowledge base. Which is why he probably was best with students who were either advanced or very dedicated to work hard.

 

[RHFusillo]

Jeff Berlin threads are endlessly entertaining. He's the third rail of the bass guitar world.