Jeff Berlin Speaks

[guy n. cognito]

So right now I'm listening to Jeff on the most recent No Treble podcast discussing his behavior. He really sounds exactly like a recovering alcoholic (like me) that finally had his reality snap, shatter and fall out from under him (like me) and has finally figured out that it is not necessary to be right about everything all the time (like me, sometimes).

I heard that, too. I'm guessing that it finally dawned on him what his attitude has cost him....his reputation.

 

[guy n. cognito]

OK, so basically he could be a dick sometimes. Did he insult people's mothers? Say their kids were ugly? Insist that people who couldn't sightread "Heart of the Sunrise" should kill themselves?

Go click the link an read his rage-quit from this forum. It explains his personality perfectly. Couple that with the minions that he sent here to troll this board after he was finally banned, and you get Jeff Berlin!!!1

Jeff Berlin (who is more or less completely unknown outside the bass community)

Honestly, he's not super well know in the bass community outside of jazz circles, either.

 

[JLY]

I was not on TB when all of that went down but I understand he was awful to deal with

Sounds like he recently saw a need to change. Kind of like AA, you take a fearless self inventory and you make your amends regardless of whether they are accepted or not.

If he were to be reinstated here, I have no doubt that that many would be taking shots at him or try to incite him. So it's probably better for HIM not to be allowed back on TB.

It's great to see anyone want to become a better person. It takes a lot for anyone especially one that is famous ( and he is famous in the bass community) to admit their personality and behavior faults. I wish him the best.

 

[friendlybass]

Hope this works out for the guy. Not a huge fan of the style of music he prefers but as a young player I enjoyed his teaching after sifting through the angriness. I'm glad he ran out of grouchiness

 

[Sgt. Rock]

Acted like a dick sometimes...no lives ruined that I know of. But he traditionally has been very insulting to people who don't go strictly by his methods, especially if they try to inject spirituality into the mix. But while at one time I was not a fan of his actions, especially when he'd take little potshots at Jaco for no reason, I am now and have been for a few years once I got to know what he's all about. He really IS a nice guy, but he's very intense and more than a little scary. However, he's often right about the state of music education these days. I find it a little too spiritual in nature, too, especially with all the meaningless buzzwords and feel-good sentiments like "There are no wrong notes." Trust me...there are PLENTY of wrong notes to be had!

Yep. I remember you and I having a PM conversation (years ago) about Jeff. I saw right away that you were the guy who was going to "get it" eventually, and you very quickly did. The essence of the problem was that Mr. Berlin's communication style tended to detract from his message, which was and remains *incedibly* important for anyone who wants to make their living playing music. That is, there is a difference between academic learning and art, and the most efficient and complete way to learn music is to momentarily forget about art (groove, feel, "soul" LOL), focus on academics, make LOTS of mistakes, stop and correct them, and once the academic lesson is absorbed, THEN go use it in an artistic way.

Berlin reminds me a lot of my High School's old music teacher. He was no-nonsense, old-school, strongly focused on academics, and a bit abrasive. But his methods worked. Once he came on board, the band sounded better than it had in years, and wasn't the same after he left. I don't argue against the merit of a given approach when the results are so crystal clear.

I hope that Jeff is making real, sincere progress on his personal issues, both for his own happiness and the importance of his message. It needs to be heard and absorbed. It takes a lot of balls to publicly apologize for one's actions and admit a personal fault. I hope this personal turn takes hold.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Maybe his wife left him

[edit: deleted. Cheap shot, too easy.]

 

[joeaba]

I like Jeff Berlin. I've learned quite a bit from his videos. I'm not a huge fan of his music, but he has written some good music. It seems that he is perceived to be rude and admittedly has flaws. Does it really matter if he's flawed in some way? He set his goals to be a great bass player and he is. He's an accomplished musician. Despite the bad press and accounts of his admittedly inconsistent peronality, he succeeded where many have failed. Some would say that having a personality like his would hinder success, in Jeff's case it didn't. His talent precedes his flaws and there are many musicians with this sort of issue, but not many who apologize for it.

 

[JimmyM]

RE: his wife, Jeff got married again a couple years ago.

 

[Jefff]

This forum is not the be all and end all for bassists. Jeff will work and Jeff will be fine.

No mater what is "style" of teaching is he will get students and he will play on gigs he really wants to play on.

Not everyone is meant to be for everyone.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Acted like a dick sometimes...no lives ruined that I know of. But he traditionally has been very insulting to people who don't go strictly by his methods, especially if they try to inject spirituality into the mix. But while at one time I was not a fan of his actions, especially when he'd take little potshots at Jaco for no reason, I am now and have been for a few years once I got to know what he's all about. He really IS a nice guy, but he's very intense and more than a little scary. However, he's often right about the state of music education these days. I find it a little too spiritual in nature, too, especially with all the meaningless buzzwords and feel-good sentiments like "There are no wrong notes." Trust me...there are PLENTY of wrong notes to be had!

If you get past the saying and actually check out Victor explaining what he meant (if you haven't already), you may be surprised I've seen him demo the principle and it's pretty cool... and not as linear as most bass playing I've heard. Rhythm is a big factor. He's not saying people can't play wrong notes, some do quite frequently. He's saying there are ways to make the wrong notes in a key work when soloing... making them right for that player. Think Scofield for example.

I don't recall anything spiritual about that. And even if there were, I can see where spirituality could fit into being a musician. I don't truly know why I was drawn to it, I just was. And it had nothing to do with getting chicks.


I chalked the Jaco thing up to Jeff potentially being a better technical player yet watching people fall all over Jaco and not him.

I don't have a problem with Jeff and wish him the best. Hadn't really talked to him much after telling me why I started playing fretless on TBL. That was a long time ago... and weird... and a hoot.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I was not on TB when all of that went down but I understand he was awful to deal with

Sounds like he recently saw a need to change. Kind of like AA, you take a fearless self inventory and you make your amends regardless of whether they are accepted or not.

If he were to be reinstated here, I have no doubt that that many would be taking shots at him or try to incite him. So it's probably better for HIM not to be allowed back on TB.

It's great to see anyone want to become a better person. It takes a lot for anyone especially one that is famous ( and he is famous in the bass community) to admit their personality and behavior faults. I wish him the best.

The way he left here, if they let him back they should probably let EVERYONE back... it really was a scorched Earth, massive f u to Talkbass and the moderators. A new level in rage-quitting.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yep. I remember you and I having a PM conversation (years ago) about Jeff. I saw right away that you were the guy who was going to "get it" eventually, and you very quickly did. The essence of the problem was that Mr. Berlin's communication style tended to detract from his message, which was and remains *incedibly* important for anyone who wants to make their living playing music. That is, there is a difference between academic learning and art, and the most efficient and complete way to learn music is to momentarily forget about art (groove, feel, "soul" LOL), focus on academics, make LOTS of mistakes, stop and correct them, and once the academic lesson is absorbed, THEN go use it in an artistic way.

Berlin reminds me a lot of my High School's old music teacher. He was no-nonsense, old-school, strongly focused on academics, and a bit abrasive. But his methods worked. Once he came on board, the band sounded better than it had in years, and wasn't the same after he left. I don't argue against the merit of a given approach when the results are so crystal clear.

I hope that Jeff is making real, sincere progress on his personal issues, both for his own happiness and the importance of his message. It needs to be heard and absorbed. It takes a lot of balls to publicly apologize for one's actions and admit a personal fault. I hope this personal turn takes hold.

Forgetting about "groove, feel, "soul" LOL" is the main issue I have with some of the technical players out here. What's the LOL about? Ever heard Bobby Vega? The guy is infested with all three and doesn't sound like an exercise. apparently many players who followed your tact forgot to go back and learn how to groove or play with feel. Some might deride a guy like Rocco Prestia for his technique even though chances are high that their linear lines would kill what Tower of Power has going on. IOW why not do BOTH simultaneously? If you only learn the "right notes" in a technical setting you might not ever getting around to using the other notes in a live ensemble, playing with and off of other human beings.


Too often you end up with someone who can play a barrage of notes very fast and very clean. Typically with a narrow dynamic range. Some dig that (usually folks who can't do it) while others find it monotonous.

There are several ways to make a living playing music and the rigidity, the idea that everyone wants to be one type of musician, makes no sense to me. What if you don't want to be a soloist? Or a Jazz musician? Etc.


Everyone doesn't have the same goal so why would they need the same curriculum? I'm not anti-education, I'm still learning. I'm anti-one-size-fits-all.

 

[Sgt. Rock]

Forgetting about "groove, feel, "soul" LOL" is the main issue I have with some of the technical players out here. What's the LOL about? Ever heard Bobby Vega? The guy is infested with all three and doesn't sound like an exercise. apparently many players who followed your tact forgot to go back and learn how to groove or play with feel. Some might deride a guy like Rocco Prestia for his technique even though chances are high that their linear lines would kill what Tower of Power has going on. IOW why not do BOTH simultaneously? If you only learn the "right notes" in a technical setting you might not ever getting around to using the other notes in a live ensemble, playing with and off of other human beings.


Too often you end up with someone who can play a barrage of notes very fast and very clean. Typically with a narrow dynamic range. Some dig that (usually folks who can't do it) while others find it monotonous.

There are several ways to make a living playing music and the rigidity, the idea that everyone wants to be one type of musician, makes no sense to me. What if you don't want to be a soloist? Or a Jazz musician? Etc.


Everyone doesn't have the same goal so why would they need the same curriculum? I'm not anti-education, I'm still learning. I'm anti-one-size-fits-all.

The "LOL" comes from my belief that all of those things are an artistic choice that comes *after* learning academic elements. I don't believe one size fits all. I do believe that trying to learn to groove from a teacher who hasn't yet taught you solid theory is putting the cart before the horse.

Edit: also, the idea that academic learning inevitably leads to "soulless" playing is simply not true. That's a matter of taste. You don't forget how to play Some Kind of Wonderful by learning to play DB in an orchestra, or by taking jazz lessons at a music college.

 

[JimmyM]

Yeah, Jeff once addressed those points in a way I couldn't argue. I once said that I've seen some really great musicians sound awfully sad when they play AC/DC songs. He said that you can pick up the stylistic fine points of a band or genre simply by listening to the records and you don't need to spend money on a teacher to do it, but once you get the nuts and bolts of musical academia down, that process becomes a lot easier. I also mentioned playing with "feeling," and he said, "Play with confidence and there's your feeling."

I couldn't think of a single argument against those points.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The "LOL" comes from my belief that all of those things are an artistic choice that comes *after* learning academic elements. I don't believe one size fits all. I do believe that trying to learn to groove from a teacher who hasn't yet taught you solid theory is putting the cart before the horse.

Edit: also, the idea that academic learning inevitably leads to "soulless" playing is simply not true. That's a matter of taste. You don't forget how to play Some Kind of Wonderful by learning to play DB in an orchestra, or by taking jazz lessons at a music college.

I agree... academic learning doesn't lead to soulless palying. Soulless musicians typically stay that way.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yeah, Jeff once addressed those points in a way I couldn't argue. I once said that I've seen some really great musicians sound awfully sad when they play AC/DC songs. He said that you can pick up the stylistic fine points of a band or genre simply by listening to the records and you don't need to spend money on a teacher to do it, but once you get the nuts and bolts of musical academia down, that process becomes a lot easier. I also mentioned playing with "feeling," and he said, "Play with confidence and there's your feeling."

I couldn't think of a single argument against those points.

Could not disagree more. Having seen otherwise accomplished musicians completely unable to grasp the nuances of styles that are foreign to them, I think that some folks just don't get what they don't get... matter of fact, they probably think they are getting it. That's why I speak up when people say what I consider nonsense about bassists who are phenomenal in their lane by making the assumption that they can play anything because they can play a lot of notes. "Anything" covers a lot of ground. Some people can't make simple work.

So you get folks who can blow changes over "Cherokee" at 312 bpm but can't play "I'll Take You There" convincingly. Often they sound bored because they can't force more into a basic groove. Typically the players who want to play like them don't get why one does not equal the other.


I have a percussionist friend who was really into Dave Weckl and William Kennedy. He had most of their style down. He told me he'd like to an R&B gig so the first opportunity I got I had a friend hire him. It was flat out amazing how much he struggled with simple backbeats and worse, laid back syncopation. He simply couldn't feel it.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

RE: his wife, Jeff got married again a couple years ago.

And mayhaps, this was a first step in the road he is now on.

 

[JimmyM]

Could not disagree more. Having seen otherwise accomplished musicians completely unable to grasp the nuances of styles that are foreign to them, I think that some folks just don't get what they don't get... matter of fact, they probably think they are getting it. That's why I speak up when people say what I consider nonsense about bassists who are phenomenal in their lane by making the assumption that they can play anything because they can play a lot of notes. "Anything" covers a lot of ground. Some people can't make simple work.

So you get folks who can blow changes over "Cherokee" at 312 bpm but can't play "I'll Take You There" convincingly. Often they sound bored because they can't force more into a basic groove. Typically the players who want to play like them don't get why one does not equal the other.


I have a percussionist friend who was really into Dave Weckl and William Kennedy. He had most of their style down. He told me he'd like to an R&B gig so the first opportunity I got I had a friend hire him. It was flat out amazing how much he struggled with simple backbeats and worse, laid back syncopation. He simply couldn't feel it.

That's because he never did it before or listened to the records very often.

 

[Brad Johnson]

That's because he never did it before or listened to the records very often.

Really? And you base your hard conclusions about my friend on what?

He had the music for a month.

I had another friend who struggled with playing Will Kennedy's part on a Yellowjackets song. I offered to get together with him and help him. I don't play drums past a rudimentary level. But I can "hear".

I broke down the parts from the recording; kick, snare, cymbals and toms, and had him work on them individually then add them together. He was very happy to say the least. His problem was that he had a hard time hearing the drums in the mix for some reason. Five minutes later he couldn't play it again with the recording. I still have no idea what he hears when he listen to music. He's been playing for well over twenty years. I listen for and hear just about everything in the mix.

The first band that I was in when I returned to Maryland played progressive Jazz. They laughed at James Brown's music which lead me to ask them if they could play it. Of course they could.

Except they couldn't. What followed was laughable and eye opening for them. They'd heard the songs hundreds of times but ultimately didn't really understand what they were hearing.

And they still can't do it.LOL.

So nope... there are people who simply struggle with playing some feels authentically LOL. Even what others may consider simpler. The nuances kick a lot of butts.

 

[Sgt. Rock]

Some folks develop their academic playing abilities and assume that will cover all bases. It doesn't. Ears matter too. A lot. But you don't have to pay someone for that. You just need to spend time on it. Some more than others.