Jon Camp Rick Sound

[hieronymous]

I only just started listening to Renaissance a few months ago. I've heard of them for a long time but never listened for some reason. I found this video and even though it's "lip synching" with the original recording, there are a couple of views of Jon Camp on a doubleneck! The part starting at 2:52 is cool - it looks like they are really playing and like @Bob_Ross said, it looks like he's attacking the bass! I think that might be part of the sound...

 

[Wood and Wire]

whereas you can tell Squire is getting that "scrape" from the angle of the pick, often played back closer to the bridge.

I'm not sure about scraping the pick, due to angle of attack; Chris said he grips the pick so that just the very tip is protruding, and when he hits the string, the nail of his index finger strikes first, followed immediately by the pick itself - creating a double attack to the notes envelope (I'm sure I read he also would incorporate the thumb nail, to create a triple attack).

 

[Barrytone]

It's funny, but back when both bassists & bands were at their peak, I would have sworn that they had the exact same tone...i.e., Chris Squire and Jon Camp both epitomized the iconic Rickenbacker with roundwounds tone that defined British prog rock (as well as the platonic archetype of what teenaged me then thought he wanted from a bass)

But the more I go back and listen to old Yes and Renaissance recordings, the more I realize that Jon Camp kinda did the "Chris Squire thing" better than Chris Squire did! Camp has all the metallic clank and twang but with plenty of full, round low end, whereas I am continually suprised at how much bandpassed distorto-grind is inherent in Squire's sound

It's true! I also thought of their sound as synonymous in the earlier days. It's only recently, now poor Jon has left us, that my interest was rekindled while listening again to my Renaissance play list through a top quality pair of headphones. I'm also a sound engineer and it finally dawned on me how unique is that plucked string "envelope". I think it's most noticeable in "Day Of The Dreamer", all the way through, but especially from around 02:45 when he starts hitting the low Bb quite hard. Also the ascending phrase from the Low F is a classic example, followed by that outstanding 7/8 groove in A. If anyone can reproduce this sound it would be amazing to hear a recording of you doing it, and to know how you did it!!!

 

[Barrytone]

I had never heard of them before, but I've always loved Prog.
His sound reminds me of Pete Trewavis of Marillion on the first few albums when he was playing the Rick, who obviously had more of a Mike Ritherford thing going on than Chris Squire.
It's a cool sound

Now you're talking! I have met Pete a few times - great bloke! Marillion are my local band, being part of the wonderful Friars Club Aylesbury, founded by David Stopps, with whom I am extremely honoured to have a musical association, he having kindly agreed to host my band at The Aylesbury Waterside next October under the Friars banner! I first met Pete when we were on the same bill at The Waterside "Earthly Messenger" tribute to David Bowie. Amazingly, because this Jon Camp thing is only a recent fad of mine, I never really appreciated this about Pete's early Rick playing, but you are right, you can hear a touch of the Jon Camp sound in tracks such as "Market Square Heroes" ( by the way that's Aylesbury Market Square)

 

[Barrytone]

Here's my first effort. Getting there but that ferocious pick mountain is still elusive, to my ears. The riff is stolen from the "Day Of The Dreamer" 7/8 groove in A, the first part being picked hard but clean with an 0.9mm plastic pick. The second one really digs in, as far as I dare, using an 0.3mm stainless steel pick, angled to try and get some fizz into the pick attack. Rotosound Swingbass 66 - 0.95 lowest string.

 

[mapleglo]

I'm a fan of Marillion as well as Renaissance (and Yes). I own more Marillion CDs than Renaissance, but not more than Yes. Pete Trewavis also sounds great in Transatlantic, which might be more "priggish" than Marillion. I think he gets a more prog-like tone with Transatlantic.

 

[LowendG]

I'm not sure about scraping the pick, due to angle of attack; Chris said he grips the pick so that just the very tip is protruding, and when he hits the string, the nail of his index finger strikes first, followed immediately by the pick itself - creating a double attack to the notes envelope (I'm sure I read he also would incorporate the thumb nail, to create a triple attack).

I bet he used all of these techniques in varying degrees. He was a rocker but also was a perfectionist with crazy attention to detail as I understand it (not to mention a visionary - everyone we're talking about (including Geddy) was inspired by the Godfather of Prog Bass).

 

[Jeff Scott]

What's the consensus on this tone?

 

[Barrytone]

I'm a fan of Marillion as well as Renaissance (and Yes). I own more Marillion CDs than Renaissance, but not more than Yes. Pete Trewavis also sounds great in Transatlantic, which might be more "priggish" than Marillion. I think he gets a more prog-like tone with Transatlantic.

That's interesting I hadn't heard of them. Sounds great! The bass in that sounds like my Ibanez.

 

[Barrytone]

What's the consensus on this tone?

Sweet sound, very smooth but with a nice little bit of edge. Interesting style - sounds like he is flicking the strings with his fingernails!

 

[eddybuzzard]

Here's my first effort. Getting there but that ferocious pick mountain is still elusive, to my ears. The riff is stolen from the "Day Of The Dreamer" 7/8 groove in A, the first part being picked hard but clean with an 0.9mm plastic pick. The second one really digs in, as far as I dare, using an 0.3mm stainless steel pick, angled to try and get some fizz into the pick attack. Rotosound Swingbass 66 - 0.95 lowest string.

I think those are both great examples, and sonically illustrate the differences in the picks and the angle.
I can clearly hear the metallic rasp in the second half, hopefully you can too

 

[eddybuzzard]

Sweet sound, very smooth but with a nice little bit of edge. Interesting style - sounds like he is flicking the strings with his fingernails!

Maybe Jeff is being humble here.... Rare Blend is one of his past projects, so that's him you're hearing on bass

 

[Barrytone]

Maybe Jeff is being humble here.... Rare Blend is one of his past projects, so that's him you're hearing on bass

well shiver me timbers - I'm a fan! Isn't it great to create - did a lot of this kind of stuff during lockdown and a few more since, but these days it is such a saturated market. Have earned about 0.00002 cents on Spotify so far

 

[Barrytone]

I think those are both great examples, and sonically illustrate the differences in the picks and the angle.
I can clearly hear the metallic rasp in the second half, hopefully you can too

I can, thanks again for the tips. Picking was not my thing until recently - have been finger style all my life so far, so this is a whole new and exciting world for me - wonder how long it will last

 

[Jeff Scott]

well shiver me timbers - I'm a fan! Isn't it great to create - did a lot of this kind of stuff during lockdown and a few more since, but these days it is such a saturated market. Have earned about 0.00002 cents on Spotify so far

Rare Blend was the only all original music band I was a part of, but I have been creating my own music since the early '70s. CoviDaze® was mostly spent creating music on one of my acoustic guitars (no picks involved).

I can, thanks again for the tips. Picking was not my thing until recently - have been finger style all my life so far, so this is a whole new and exciting world for me - wonder how long it will last

There also were no picks involved on "March to Orion"; that was played with meeeeee fingers.

 

[isaac42]

It's funny, but back when both bassists & bands were at their peak, I would have sworn that they had the exact same tone...i.e., Chris Squire and Jon Camp both epitomized the iconic Rickenbacker with roundwounds tone that defined British prog rock (as well as the platonic archetype of what teenaged me then thought he wanted from a bass)

But the more I go back and listen to old Yes and Renaissance recordings, the more I realize that Jon Camp kinda did the "Chris Squire thing" better than Chris Squire did! Camp has all the metallic clank and twang but with plenty of full, round low end, whereas I am continually suprised at how much bandpassed distorto-grind is inherent in Squire's sound

...and also at how many classic Squire tracks weren't even a Rickenbacker at all.

Well of course they had the exact same sound. Everybody knows that the Ric is a one trick pony that can make only one sound. Right?

 

[roccobass]

Since you say 'fizz in the pick attack', I offer this...

Picking angle has a lot to do with the note development.
Holding the pick parallel to the string at release will produce a cleaner attack,
whereas holding at a slight angle will produce a split second of scrape (dirt) before the note sounds.
When either of these methods is done with a higher energy, the string will usually "clank" on the closest free fret,
usually the one just above the fretted note, immediately before the note starts to sound.
This contact with that clank fret, causes the string to lose some of the initial energy, and calms it down,
much like an electronic compressor does, only it happens organically.

Maybe experiment with different action set-ups, and/or different picks/picking angle/energies.
A lot of this stuff really does come from our own hands.
AFAIK, Geddy, and CS played pretty hard, and probably Jon too.

I agree with the angle of the pick producing the natural grit. When I was reviewing Roundabout, the angled approach finally allowed me to learn the locomotive part.

Sorry, I digress. Getting back to Jon, yes he does bear down on his ax. Check out the view on his playing (no, not on Annie’s dancing ) on the intro to Can You Understand. He is getting it on.

 

[isaac42]

I agree with the angle of the pick producing the natural grit. When I was reviewing Roundabout, the angled approach finally allowed me to learn the locomotive part.

Sorry, I digress. Getting back to Jon, yes he does bear down on his ax. Check out the view on his playing (no, not on Annie’s dancing ) on the intro to Can You Understand. He is getting it on.

I admit that I do find it very difficult to look at Jon with Annie in the background.

It doesn't seem to me that Jon is picking particularly hard at around 5:00, though he digs in some more at around 5:40.

 

[roccobass]

I admit that I do find it very difficult to look at Jon with Annie in the background.

From the angle of Jon’s head through most of that passage, he might have been slightly distracted too.

However, being the consummate professional he was, his hands already knew what to do.

 

[sunbeast]

You might check out Herco Heavy picks. This is what Chris Squire used, alongside many other guitar and bass players from the 70s, and wouldn't be surprised if Jon Camp also used them. They aren't heavy at all by today's standards (less than 1mm gauge), but definitely give a pronounced snappy attack and I find softer gauge picks like this can kinda act like a compressor in a way vs my preferred harder picks since you can really smack the strings without the huge potential change in amplitude that you get with stiffer picks (playing harder makes more tonal than amplitude changes). Annoyingly they have capitalized on the vintage-correct market, so there are 3 or more versions of the Herco Heavy available with slightly different nylon material- I've tried three different types of them and can hear some differences though they all get a decently snappy attack and I can't recall which I ended up settling on. Not my favorite picks, but when I want that particular attack they make it easy so I keep one in my wallet alongside some preferred other choices.