Jule Amps Monique

[Fretless5verfan]

I like her the way she is and I've been contacted by several customers this week who have very strongly suggested that I do not change her. I won't. While in this effort, I did identify an XLR balanced buffer change going forward, but this will only make only Monique easier to connect to other devices.

I can definitely understand why people are saying nay to any changes. Monique's tone is literally perfect the way it is, and a massive output boost might negatively effect it.

That said, I am a bit worried now about my next rig. My Monique + Berg IP310 rig is AMAZING, but if that Berg goes down, i'm SOL since they aren't made any more. I'm figuring the next best bet will be a CA9 and a Berg HD410, but now i'm a little worried about the Monique driving it. The Input Sens is still only .775, so I should be good...i think...right?

 

[BurningSkies]

Lets keep our eyes on the prize here.

-My reports of low level into my power amp come from a unit that was not performing up to spec.

-While not quantifiable, it me it sounds like probably 1/10th of the correct level, or something of that nature.

-Upon sending it back to Jule, he offered to send me a new unit, and I requested he just work on my 'original' unit. Unfortunately, the symptoms I was experiencing could be caused by a number of things...all of which during that week that FedEx had my unit Jule suspected.

-Jule says that the unit should output 0dB when working correctly, which should match my amp's input sensitivity of .775v just fine. I assume this is correct.

-In the mean time, Jule has added the same buffering to the Balanced DI XLR out that the Line Out already had. I believe this utilizes the second half of the 12AU7...Is that correct, Jule? Theoretically, the DI should now sound even better in whatever given situation you'd need the DI level out, more representative of the Line tone.

-Jule has also changed the Line out to a TRS output instead of the standard TS that was there. The levels remain the same.

-Jule's 'friends' aren't just dudes from the neighborhood. They happen to be some of the most highly regarded electronics designers in the field of high end pro audio. He tells me they benched a whole design revision or two that were very major and provided way more signal, but it lost a lot of the signature tone and 'feel' of the unit. I can understand not wanting to sacrifice the character of the unit for this reason. The original Monique IS being used by many folks with good results, and them voicing that isn't a bad thing.

-Maybe Jule should consider some of the design gymnastics for his next build...a different unit with a different attitude, from what he's said to me it could get pretty nasty. Monique's naughty little sister.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Burning Skies, thanks for your comments.

If Jules were to produce a Monique with the same footprint as the birdcage or bamboo versions, but in a more utilitarian/affordable package, I'd be all over it. I'd invest in a compact, bulletproof, [relatively] affordable pre-amp that sounds good, especially if I could find a powerful two-channel (or 2-Ohm) power amp with the same footprint!

 

[Fretless5verfan]

-Jule says that the unit should output 0dB when working correctly, which should match my amp's input sensitivity of .775v just fine. I assume this is correct.

-Jule has also changed the Line out to a TRS output instead of the standard TS that was there. The levels remain the same.

-Maybe Jule should consider some of the design gymnastics for his next build...a different unit with a different attitude, from what he's said to me it could get pretty nasty. Monique's naughty little sister.

1) I'm assuming this too. My old Monique drove my IP310 fine and it's got the same Input Sens.

2) This is interesting. TRS-XLR cables are much easier to come across, so it'd be nice to be able to use one of those instead of mr rare TS-XLR.

3) I'm all for this

 

[juledude]

It would make a difference to working musicians when they have no other amp but a PA Power Amp that requires a lot of voltage. Even in those cases, if the amp has an effects loop or a Line In, it will work. If those are live gigs, Monique usually goes in via the XLR on a mic cable, and the sound-man runs the PA amp.

The bass players I usually hear from have bass amps.

The levels mentioned are minimum levels too. Better to tell those than the other way around. That means you get those minimums with the lightest wound passive bass pickups. That is an input level of -26db. And this is with the EQ zeroed out (noon). Anything more gives more level.

As for signal to noise, she is made to go full tilt with optimal signal to noise ratio.

Pragmatically speaking, how does this limit the way Monique can be used by working musicians?

I presume Monique remains valuable as a DI sending a mic-level signal to FOH.

In which applications can Monique be used while maintaining optimal sign-to-noise ratio?

 

[juledude]

Yes, it is now using the second half of the 12AU7 to further buffer the Balanced Out.

As to the quest to increase levels up to about +40db, it came down to what you mention. When the levels went up, the tone was not the same. She sounded like Moniques excitable half sister. The quest was not really the objective for the moment. The question was what was causing problems for my paying customers right now.

The quest has merit. When things calm a bit, I will pursue that objective again. It might work well. To do so, I will need willing customers to run the changes through the real world. And I will need time.

0db is more than the .775 volts rms. And that is with minimum input of -26db.

And yes, TI has contacted me regarding including a Class D 600 watt power amp IC inside Monique. This is another "quest" for a later date and with a whole lot of testing.

Thank you again for your patience.

Lets keep our eyes on the prize here.

-My reports of low level into my power amp come from a unit that was not performing up to spec.

-While not quantifiable, it me it sounds like probably 1/10th of the correct level, or something of that nature.

-Upon sending it back to Jule, he offered to send me a new unit, and I requested he just work on my 'original' unit. Unfortunately, the symptoms I was experiencing could be caused by a number of things...all of which during that week that FedEx had my unit Jule suspected.

-Jule says that the unit should output 0dB when working correctly, which should match my amp's input sensitivity of .775v just fine. I assume this is correct.

-In the mean time, Jule has added the same buffering to the Balanced DI XLR out that the Line Out already had. I believe this utilizes the second half of the 12AU7...Is that correct, Jule? Theoretically, the DI should now sound even better in whatever given situation you'd need the DI level out, more representative of the Line tone.

-Jule has also changed the Line out to a TRS output instead of the standard TS that was there. The levels remain the same.

-Jule's 'friends' aren't just dudes from the neighborhood. They happen to be some of the most highly regarded electronics designers in the field of high end pro audio. He tells me they benched a whole design revision or two that were very major and provided way more signal, but it lost a lot of the signature tone and 'feel' of the unit. I can understand not wanting to sacrifice the character of the unit for this reason. The original Monique IS being used by many folks with good results, and them voicing that isn't a bad thing.

-Maybe Jule should consider some of the design gymnastics for his next build...a different unit with a different attitude, from what he's said to me it could get pretty nasty. Monique's naughty little sister.

 

[juledude]

It wasn't them who made the decision to roll back the additional level. It was me. Too much changed with too little opportunity to get testing and feedback from customers.

My customers (even those I haven't shipped to yet, have been wonderful. Which makes me more determined not to take anything away from them while I go on a quest.

Man oh man, I'm sorry to hear about such a crummy time.

???? That's just bizarre to me. I get it that from the inside, on a deep technical level, you have made some discoveries and realizations about what will work best for your design; but for someone on the outside to tell you not to make improvements... what?

Again, I mean no doubt or disrespect to your own decision process.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Thanks, Jule!

 

[juledude]

She'll drive just like she does the Bergantino.

I can definitely understand why people are saying nay to any changes. Monique's tone is literally perfect the way it is, and a massive output boost might negatively effect it.

That said, I am a bit worried now about my next rig. My Monique + Berg IP310 rig is AMAZING, but if that Berg goes down, i'm SOL since they aren't made any more. I'm figuring the next best bet will be a CA9 and a Berg HD410, but now i'm a little worried about the Monique driving it. The Input Sens is still only .775, so I should be good...i think...right?

 

[Fretless5verfan]

She'll drive just like she does the Bergantino.

Excellent!

Any time you need some support on a "quest" count me in. I'll help out whatever way I can. It's the least I can do in return for you being so generally awesome

 

[JimmyM]

So it was all about some bum tubes, eh? Wow, how lame is that? OTOH, while I shouldn't poop on new tubes because I got very long life out of the Sovteks that used to be in my B-15 before I restored it, I can't see buying something like this and not throwing some sweet NOS tubes in it. Don't have to get the $150 ones but some nice Sylvanias or RCA's would be rockin' for not much more than Sovteks.

Speaking of tubes, are EZ81's and 6CA4's the same thing? Also, how about a little 6SL7 education from those of you know know a lot about them? Are there any that really stand out to you all as awesome? Does the size of the bottle create any specific characteristics? (EDIT: Just saw Skies started a 6SL7 discussion already)

Anyway, so what's the dealio on this power amp stuff? I'm way out of the loop when it comes to pre/power rigs, but it sounds to me like it's working for people to drive power amps with them as it is.

 

[bongomania]

Anyway, so what's the dealio on this power amp stuff? I'm way out of the loop when it comes to pre/power rigs, but it sounds to me like it's working for people to drive power amps with them as it is.

Different power amps have different "minimums" of signal strength you need to feed them in order to perform optimally. Giving them a preamp signal that isn't strong enough results in the power amp sounding gutless, or like it's nowhere near its rated wattage.

Most integrated-head power sections, and the Berg IP's, and a very small number of rack power amps can be driven well with a lower voltage such as .75 v rms.

Most rack power amps require much higher output, usually twice as strong (about 1.4 v).

So people wanting to use Monique to drive a power amp will need to select a power amp that has a low input sensitivity rating.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Bongo, are you aware of a "clean booster" that could be placed between the pre-amp and power amp to boost the signal seen by the power amp without adding noise? Could an active DI do the job?

 

[JimmyM]

So people wanting to use Monique to drive a power amp will need to select a power amp that has a low input sensitivity rating.

I see. Well it would be nice if tube/transformer technology behaved exactly like solid state where you could do things like add 40db of boost and it sounds the same. But it do not, and if I had to choose between tone or universality with all power amps on the market, I'll take tone every single time. May seem a little esoteric to some, but if you want that sound bad enough, you'll figure out a way to deal. It's not the end of the world that you'd have to use a head and defeat its internal pre or run it in front of another amp. That's how the vast majority of bass players would be doing it anyway.

 

[bongomania]

Bongo, are you aware of a "clean booster" that could be placed between the pre-amp and power amp to boost the signal seen by the power amp without adding noise? Could an active DI do the job?

Not most active DI's, as the majority of them are unity gain. But there are TONS of other options. The best bet will actually be a mic preamp, as many are designed to be as transparent as possible. There is a certain extent to which higher standards of transparency mean a higher price tag. But if ultimate transparency is not critical, almost any mic pre will do. Another option is a rack compressor or EQ. Again, they will not be perfectly transparent, but most do have enough clean gain to do the job quite well.

 

[BurningSkies]

It would make a difference to working musicians when they have no other amp but a PA Power Amp that requires a lot of voltage. Even in those cases, if the amp has an effects loop or a Line In, it will work. If those are live gigs, Monique usually goes in via the XLR on a mic cable, and the sound-man runs the PA amp.

The bass players I usually hear from have bass amps.

We TB'ers tend to be different.
Actually, there was a 'heyday' of preamp/poweramp setups about 20 something years ago, then folks went back to good ol' heads. But something in the past 5 years or so has made using power amps a viable choice for many players...the advent of lightweight high power SMPS and micro Class D or even A/B technology. With my cabinets of choice I was finding that a standard micro (~500w) was running out of steam with my volume and my cabinets, which don't need a ton of power, but don't complain when you give it to them.

What became apparent to me was that I could now get a 2 space 7-pound power amplifier with more wattage than I'd ever truly need...for under 500$ Rather than carrying 50lbs of transformer for 800w of power its now possible to have under 10 pounds of amp and have 3000w. Why wouldn't you want that! Just because you have the horsies under the hood doesn't mean you have to use the.

The next thing is that my 'trip' is wonderful tube tone...that's reproduced cleanly and loudly. I just like it better. Fully tube amps couldn't do it for me without breaking up. I want the three dimensional tube tone and richness of their harmonic 'distortion' but I want to hear it clean and clear at potentially PA level volumes...

...and that last part is because unlike many guys on the pro-level circuit (I've done a few of those level shows too), I know that on a given night I may be my own front end. It could be a club of 200 or it could be in a gymnasium. Sometimes outdoors. But I have a rig based on the conviction that no matter what I show up and find, I'll have enough rig for the room. Unlike some of the higher reaches, I have to make do with what I find when I walk in the door...The League of Extra Big Gig Bags.

Yes, it is now using the second half of the 12AU7 to further buffer the Balanced Out.

As to the quest to increase levels up to about +40db, it came down to what you mention. When the levels went up, the tone was not the same. She sounded like Moniques excitable half sister. The quest was not really the objective for the moment. The question was what was causing problems for my paying customers right now.

The quest has merit. When things calm a bit, I will pursue that objective again. It might work well. To do so, I will need willing customers to run the changes through the real world. And I will need time.

Thank you again for your patience.

I bet you'd find a bunch of guys who wouldn't mind a 'evil twin sister' preamp. I like things to stay fairly neat, but there's a whole class of players who like it when things get a bit wild.

Anyway, so what's the dealio on this power amp stuff? I'm way out of the loop when it comes to pre/power rigs, but it sounds to me like it's working for people to drive power amps with them as it is.

See above, Jimmy.
Bongo has a couple nice pages that help explain what the output quotes and the input sensitivity numbers all mean to the regular player.
http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/linelevel.shtml
http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/preamp.shtml

 

[coyoteboy]

This may have been covered, but are the non-rack Moniques getting the second XLR?

edit: nevermind, found the TRS mention. I hope to fund a dove cage Monique sometime soon.

 

[BurningSkies]

This may have been covered, but are the non-rack Moniques getting the second XLR?

I don't think the original Moniques are slated to have any changes.

 

[juledude]

So it was all about some bum tubes, eh? Wow, how lame is that?

I apologize for the lamest part - my assumption that there was a mis-wiring. Wasted a lot of energy and time on that tangent.

Speaking of tubes, are EZ81's and 6CA4's the same thing?

Yes they are. The EZ80 is a lower current version, and works well. Alas, they are not in production.

Also, how about a little 6SL7 education from those of you know know a lot about them? Are there any that really stand out to you all as awesome? Does the size of the bottle create any specific characteristics? (EDIT: Just saw Skies started a 6SL7 discussion already)

They deserve a discussion of their own. I have found that although the have the same technical specifications as a 12AX7, they do not sound or play the same at all.

My expectation is that it all has to do with the increased mass of the elements inside the tube and the larger distance the electrons have to travel. Electrons smashing into metal, based on how we play. Fun to visualize. I'm sure the mathematicians can figure it all out.

As upset as I am right now with this current batch of Shuguang 6SL7 tubes, I have to remember that for about a full year, I have not had a single failure. They are very consistent as to tone and they were consistent as to manufacturing standards.

The Shuguang 6SL7 tubes also have an advantage of a metal base. The spring clip tube holders Monique owners see at the base of their 6SL7 tubes really aren't there to hold the tubes in as much as they make a connection between that metal tube base and the chassis. Makes a significant contribution to keeping the noise out of the picture.

You can, as I've done in the past, simply wrap Copper or Tin tape around the plastic base tubes. That also works, but not as well as a metal base.

NOS tubes are great if we can find any that are not micro-phonic. You can get away with a micro-phonic tube in the Baxandall EQ position of Monique, but not in the first preamp section.

EH makes a number of 6SL7 tubes under different names and prices. I feel that I will soon be quite familiar with them all.

Anyway, so what's the dealio on this power amp stuff? I'm way out of the loop when it comes to pre/power rigs, but it sounds to me like it's working for people to drive power amps with them as it is.

By all means, the power amp is only a proposed quest at this time. It all takes so much time. Monique only took three years of development and feedback from players to get to where she is today.

 

[wcriley]

Jule,
I must say that even though I can't currently justify buying one of your products, your posts here have convinced me that if my situation ever changes, you'll be the FIRST to know.