Double Bass Just a few days with an EUB - already getting heckled

[Bruce Lindfield]

I find it so weird that jazz musicians can be so 'traditional' and narrow minded when it comes to instruments such as the EUB.

It is afterall 2008, not 1958, why do they continue to want to live in the past, and to keep everyone else there too, there's a place for both EUB and DB, neither is better than the other, just different.

Well many Jazz fans think that there hasn't been a decent Jazz record since the 1960s....

I wouldn't go that far - but the classic Jazz "sound" was defined then and it was all about Double Bass!

Miles going electric was seen as the beginning of the end for Jazz....?

 

[D.A.R.K.]

Well many Jazz fans think that there hasn't been a decent Jazz record since the 1960s....

I wouldn't go that far - but the classic Jazz "sound" was defined then and it was all about Double Bass!

Miles going electric was seen as the beginning of the end for Jazz....?

this always makes me chuckle, since the recording quality and reproduction of the db on the vast majority of these records is horrible.

 

[damonsmith]

Lots of people are still stuck in 1965 - as if nothing good has come since then. But as a player of both, the DB certainly does have a powerful organic sound that is hard to beat for most things. It's just extremely versatile and the sound never gets old.

I agree, I really prefer my double bass for most things, given the choice. The EUB tends to open situations that were either a real pain or not possible with double bass. Just personally, bass guitar is not for me as a performer, I still play my acoustic bass guitar in the living room and for camping, but the EUB is my answer for electric situations.

 

[Gornick]

this always makes me chuckle, since the recording quality and reproduction of the db on the vast majority of these records is horrible.

That is a little subjective considering that the whole 70's sound was about a pickup and amp even with multi-tracking and mixing boards. It wasn't until, what, the late 80's or something what they started trying to strive a more acoustic sound? The 70's sound has it's merits, but that late 50's vibe is a wonderful thing. There is something to be said for a pair of mics going straight into the board picking up a room with a great band filling it up. I would take the sound of PC, Ray and Mingus along with the limitations of early technology and live happily with that.


On the other hand, I got a hold of an Ergo and it does a very credible job of getting that 70's sound. With the portability and late night practice flexibility, that's not a bad thing at all!

 

[D.A.R.K.]

That is a little subjective considering that the whole 70's sound was about a pickup and amp even with multi-tracking and mixing boards. It wasn't until, what, the late 80's or something what they started trying to strive a more acoustic sound? The 70's sound has it's merits, but that late 50's vibe is a wonderful thing. There is something to be said for a pair of mics going straight into the board picking up a room with a great band filling it up. I would take the sound of PC, Ray and Mingus along with the limitations of early technology and live happily with that.


On the other hand, I got a hold of an Ergo and it does a very credible job of getting that 70's sound. With the portability and late night practice flexibility, that's not a bad thing at all!

i was referring to the records up to '65 where jazz was supposedly defined by the upright sound.
bass is an afterthought on so many of these records, too far from the mic to get an even response and drown out by horns and cymbals.
to make some obvious comparisons though, kind of blue is a nice recording, with a decent bass sound. a love supreme by coltrane, however, not so much so... very lacking. it is subjective, but i just find it funny that upright tone-freaks even consider many of these recordings palatable beyond their obvious merit as very important documentation.
the '70's sounds were interesting to say the least, there is an obvious attempt to break the mold and go further. just to get back toward ot i'll add i have a very interesting framus triumph eub, which was made in the mid to late 50's... the idea is not really new by a long shot.

 

[cnltb]

I got my Ergo a few days ago and it's a lot of fun. Already though, I have had 2 instructors and 1 non-musician give me guff over getting an EUB rather than a "real bass". The non-musician used to date a bass player, so she obviously has just taken on all of his prejudices, but still, she told me it was the lamest thing she'd ever heard of (a fan of hyperbole), although she never saw or heard the actual bass. I need to get some rosin and I'm fearing talking to my only local doublebass dealer, expecting to have him talk to me like I'm an idiot for playing the instrument I do. I have been looking for instructors, but the responses I've received have all been of the "What? Why?" type, sometimes going into great detail about why this was a dumb move.

Is this something you guys get a lot? I know my reasons for getting an EUB, and there really was no other choice for me. I have no regrets. But it is a little nerve-racking having everybody look at me like a fool for playing a particular instrument. I guess this is what it's like to be a claves player.

Did you say you are losing work because of the instrument?

If not don't worry about it.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

meh. Everybody knows the recordings back then were iffy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that. You have to remember that steel strings were also new at the time and that technology has changed quite a bit over the decades. I think these days people are trying to get sounds more similar to contemporary players and recordings - stuff also on DB that were well recorded. Not many people seek to find a sound like Ron Carter in the 70's. There are only a few diehards who seem to mostly seek the PC sound (and I think even that doesn't last), but beyond that, I think everybody has moved on.

If you look at the players on TBDB, I think mostly everyone is more concerned with finding their own sound than mimic'ing one of their heroes. If we just happen upon Ray Brown's tone, great, if not... oh well. In a certain sense, you can't exactly get that old 60's sound anymore as those strings they used to make are no longer available unless you go gut or something.

Today we get to hear great players record with all kinds of instruments. For the most part, the DB is the instrument of choice, not because of what they used to play, but it's what sounds good to our ears after alot of experimenting. Remember also that many of the heroes lived into the age where they could be recorded better, so we have better examples of their sound. Milt Hinton for instance.

Like I said, I've owned both types of basses, and more EUBs than DBs. Still my old wood box cranks out a sound that is brilliant, complex, and beautiful that I simply cannot get from a slab of wood - even if it's a cheap lower quality student bass that it is. The EUB can replicate certain aspects of that sound, but it can't capture all of it. In return, we have to deal with the idiosyncrasies of owning an old wooden box with strings just cuz we like that sound so much.

OTOH... One thing is for sure tho: I practice 3 times more than I used to now that I own an EUB that I'm happy with. I love my EUB for what I use it for and it's such a huge boon.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

not debating the obvious as far as recordings etc. go, just finding it funny that folks would base defining a sound on something which is largely the opposite.
what i find even funnier is the attempt to replace/replicate the db with eub. as per reasons stated and more, they are two different things.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Which is why some people just say go all the way and forget playing an EUB and play an EB cuz it's so much easier. OTOH, if you hadn't noticed, we get lots of people trying to get the sound of 41" scale instruments out of 34" scale instruments.

And sometimes pursuing a legit DB sound out of a "lesser" instrument is a valid search, as in the case of the touring pro when they want all the sound but none of the hassle. I just played a Kolstein Travel Bass recently ($$$) and it's pretty damn close in every way when amplified.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

i understand the need to go with an eub for travel, i ended up with my nscr5m for that very reason (just 50 lbs in the flight case, still acceptable for domestic and international flights). but there is an important difference between eb and eub as well.... first and foremost for me, the ability to use the bow. and as you mentioned, the scale length. a quality eub takes many positive aspects of both instruments and combines them into a unique hybrid.
so...eub is much easier to amplify, much friendlier as far as interfacing with electronics for further sound possibilities, arco friendly, travel friendly, and as stated, and you can hang in situations that call for electric and upright. pertaining to the op, what's to heckle? (i guess if you can't stand anything contemporary, or despise sci-fi ...well, to each their own , i suppose)

 

[Huy Nguyen]

nothing. unless you want to see and hear a db.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

this always makes me chuckle, since the recording quality and reproduction of the db on the vast majority of these records is horrible.

... but that late 50's vibe is a wonderful thing. There is something to be said for a pair of mics going straight into the board picking up a room with a great band filling it up. I would take the sound of PC, Ray and Mingus along with the limitations of early technology and live happily with that.

I'm with Gornick - I love the sound of a great live band recorded straight into the board - e.g. the classic Blue Note recordings of the late 50s early 60s!

OK at times you feel the bass rather than hear it - but the overall sound of the band is always wonderful and well-balanced - as this is how these bands actually sounded on the stage!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

so...eub is much easier to amplify, much friendlier as far as interfacing with electronics for further sound possibilities, arco friendly, travel friendly, and as stated, and you can hang in situations that call for electric and upright. pertaining to the op, what's to heckle?

The most important thing - the Sound!!

So I have an NS CR5 and a DB that's actually cost me less!
When I play EUB people comment about its appearance - when I play DB they comment on how great I sound!!

Seriously, I have had loads of favourable comments with DB - including people wanting me to join their band - but just bemusement with the EUB...?

 

[Jools4001]

I aspire to a DB, but I don't have one....yet. Neither do I have an EUB. My comment comes purely from the fact that you get heckled from people with preset notions of what tradition is, and sometimes that is born simply of ignorance.

On of my favourite stories comes from a time that I played in an 'electric' ceilidh band playing English, Scottish and Irish music with a 'rock' feel. We had a gig at a folk festival and were in the middle of setting up when one of the organisers came by.

He was a stereotypical 'folkie' - unkempt beard, corduroy trousers, sandals with socks and a pewter tankard of 'ale'.

"Oh dear, you've got an infernal drum kit, I really object to drums in bands" he said.

"Why is that?" enquired our drummer

He replied "well, they're not exactly traditional are they now"

To which our drummer said "You know, when cavemen sat around their fire after their dinner, with a few clean picked bones, some animal skins and a hollow log or two what instrument do you think they invented...a bleedin' melodeon?"

You will always get purists and traditionalists who want the world to remain true to their preconceptions. If the world conformed to their way of thinking it would be rather like an insect preserved in amber, perhaps it would be perfectly preserved and true to form but ultimately dead, lifeless and uninteresting after five minutes. Thankfully the world moves on and newer sometimes doesn't mean worse, just different.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

I'm with Gornick - I love the sound of a great live band recorded straight into the board - e.g. the classic Blue Note recordings of the late 50s early 60s!

OK at times you feel the bass rather than hear it - but the overall sound of the band is always wonderful and well-balanced - as this is how these bands actually sounded on the stage!

those recordings are interesting, but how a band sounded on a stage?
sorry, i respectfully disagree.
to each their own, i really do enjoy the character of those old recordings, don't get me wrong... but the majority aren't even close to the sound on a stage!

 

[D.A.R.K.]

nothing. unless you want to see and hear a db.

right, i agree. it isn't the same, and silly to try to replicate.
the eub can hang, but is its' own thing.

 

[Gornick]

those recordings are interesting, but how a band sounded on a stage?
sorry, i respectfully disagree.
to each their own, i really do enjoy the character of those old recordings, don't get me wrong... but the majority aren't even close to the sound on a stage!

Wait? Are you suggesting that the sound of a super-produced 70's-and-on record is closer to the sound of a band on stage than what you hear on these old school recordings? really? I hear a lot of post-production, mixing, compression, added signal processing, reverb, you name it, there's not much natural to this sound in my mind. The solo instruments on super-produced recordings can be so in front that it sounds like it's inside your fricken ear, there is absolutely no acoustic quality to them in the least, no room sound, just a mike inside the bell or against an amp or on top of a drum head, or even simply a 1/4 inch direct into the board.

You are right, to each his own, but I heard my crappy car stereo tuned randomly to KCSM here in the Bay, pump out the middle of a bass solo with a sound so perfect that it was divine and so utterly unmistakable that after a couple bars, I knew it to be Mingus, and it only took Miles to come in with the head out to tell me it was "Nature Boy" from something like 53 or something or other with Elvin and Milt or what have you... you have your cake, I got my meat and potatoes over here.

Oh, and after my first couple weeks with a Popsicle Ergo, these things look silly. Just no question about it. However, all that said, I am glad to have one, it's a new voice.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Wait? Are you suggesting that the sound of a super-produced 70's-and-on record is closer to the sound of a band on stage than what you hear on these old school recordings? really? I hear a lot of post-production, mixing, compression, added signal processing, reverb, you name it, there's not much natural to this sound in my mind. The solo instruments on super-produced recordings can be so in front that it sounds like it's inside your fricken ear, there is absolutely no acoustic quality to them in the least, no room sound, just a mike inside the bell or against an amp or on top of a drum head, or even simply a 1/4 inch direct into the board.

I agree - so I have been going to my local Jazz club each week for more than 10 years and the best quartets/quintets who are realy listening to each other and really playing acoustically, sound like those great 50s and 60s recordings!

And I have talked to the players and they see it as one of the biggest compliments I could pay them!

Alfred Lion's Blue Note recordings are a standard, I see many in Jazz aiming for...in terms of a great acoustic sound!

 

[phatbass]

When I get ANYONE commenting negatively about my choice of equipment I just tell them (with varying degrees of politeness) that I've got a gig while they're in the audience watching/listening to ME playing having a great time.

I'll point out that I play one of those vertical-fretless-electric-bass-on-a-stick things that I happen to like the SOUND of, and when I'm playing I treat it as different to both Electric and Double Bass. And I don't think anyone who sees me playing through a Boss Octaver and an EHX BassBalls could accuse me of trying to sound like Ray Brown or Ron Carter.

 

[Justyn]

On the other hand, I don't regret playing the EUB - as it was a useful transition for me. So after playing BG for many decades, I just couldn't face the idea of going back to being a total beginner with DB !!

The EUB allowed me to use some BG techniques, but at the same time develop my upright skills. And the EUB rewards this - so my finding was that the more I played it like a DB the better it sounded and when I used BG techniques - it sounded like fretless BG!

Bruce, a question for you from someone who's only recently gotten into the EUB thing. Did you take lessons while you were developing your skills on your EUB? I'm transitioning from BG to mostly EUB (about 90% of the music I'm doing right now calls for the EUB) and I'm worried that with only a few instructional DVDs to guide me so far I'm putting my playing habits for the rest of my life at risk.

The obvious answer is to find a teacher, but I'm curious what your experience was.

Thanks very much for your time,
J.