Double Bass Just a few days with an EUB - already getting heckled

[rezin]

quick question from a bg player about this 3rd finger stuff.

so on an ub the third finger and pinkie are used together?

that's just because of the heavier strings and higher action right? if that's the case then isn't it ideal to use your 3rd finger by itself if possible (like on an eub)?

or am i completely missing the point

 

[Gornick]

I think you will find a lot of information about this on these forums if you do a search. The one thing that we all say around here is to get a teacher, and a couple of quick lessons will definitely answer your questions.

It's not just the strings that warrant the fingering methods but the string length. The pinkie, I believe, is actually stronger than your third finger, but the two together are much stronger than either alone. Also, the pinkie, when used in Simandl's 1-2-4 system, will give you a better chance of hitting the note spot on, so it is also an intonation issue.


regardless, this, I think is a bit off topic and you could find more info around looking under technique.

EUB's look silly, just no getting around it.

 

[frankie5string]

Here's a good one... I've just recently acquired (borrowed) a WAV 4 to use until I can order my own (pending sale of a 6 string fretless bass guitar). I wanted one to use in addition to my stingray 5 fretless... After using one for about 9 months I constantly get dogged by comments from other musicians about how it's not a true instrument.

Anyway, I tried hard to use a real double bass for about 6 months... just to aclimate myself privately to the feel and response of the instrument using some Rufus Reid technique teaching material.

I have two pinched nerves that run across my chest... It can get so bad that the first time I experienced it, I was taken to the hospital and put on an EKG for three hours until they figured out what it is.

Depending on how I leaned into the side, I'd end up in excruciating pain - so I asked around and found a guy who had an EUB...It's all in that slight lean you do into the side of the bass that exacerbates the problem. So I gave back the acoustic and borrowed an EUB - what a difference!

I'd rather play a version of the instrument that doesn't cause me pain and is fun to learn on than be in excruciating pain just because some yahoo thinks it's not a real bass...

 

[Taylor Livingston]

Yes, I agree, although I suspect the DB guys would tell you that you were doing something wrong and should have had a teacher to show you how to play so as not to hurt yourself.

 

[frankie5string]

Yes, I agree, although I suspect the DB guys would tell you that you were doing something wrong and should have had a teacher to show you how to play so as not to hurt yourself.

I actually got into a lengthy argument with one of the guys who lent me his DB... when I gave it back he argued with me. The best solution he could find was to give me a DB that was sized more like a cello, and have me sit on a stool behind it and play "forward" rather than leaning into the back corner but that caused my back to hurt after about 10 minutes... He went so far as to yell "Why don't do just go back to using your @#$ing Ashbory then??!?" ... I don't understand why anyone would be so personally offended by my inability to accommodate the instrument.

Problems problems. Ultimately, I was able to learn correct technique and learn with book + guy helping me + mirror and get it right with an EUB...

I tried a Yamaha with full bouts too - it was a little better but I had to pad the hell out of the edge to keep it from causing problems...

Needless to say, I'm happy now and am excited to order my Wav4...

 

[Taylor Livingston]

He went so far as to yell "Why don't do just go back to using your @#$ing Ashbory then??!?" ... I don't understand why anyone would be so personally offended by my inability to accommodate the instrument.

This kind of run-in seems to be common between "real" DB guys and "posers" like us. I think (and I think someone else may have said something to this effect in this thread) a lot of people (myself included) want the DB sound but we don't want to have to spend the money and work so hard to learn to play it well and lug it around. Then there are people who have made this commitment of time and effort and money and frustration to get to where they are with the instrument, and they see us as wanting something for nothing. I think that is frustrating for them.

It seems that there is no free lunch and there are no shortcuts with the doublebass. You can't get "that sound" (though you can often come close) without the real thing, and with "that sound" comes all the difficulties we don't want. This is just from my perspective, I don't mean to speak for all EUB players. It seems they think we expect to get all the goodness of doublebass without all the badness, and although sometimes they go about it in grumpy-old-man fashion, I think they are just trying to tell us that you can't the sound without the trouble.

But, as far as your hurting yourself, unless you have some physical attribute that makes you less able to play DB than the average person physically, you probably just needed a teacher to show you what you were doing wrong. A small DB in some cases will sound a little better than an EUB anyway.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Bruce, a question for you from someone who's only recently gotten into the EUB thing. Did you take lessons while you were developing your skills on your EUB? I'm transitioning from BG to mostly EUB (about 90% of the music I'm doing right now calls for the EUB) and I'm worried that with only a few instructional DVDs to guide me so far I'm putting my playing habits for the rest of my life at risk.

The obvious answer is to find a teacher, but I'm curious what your experience was.

Thanks very much for your time,
J.

Well - I talked to a few Jazz DB players and they were very contemptuous of the EUB and said things like - it was a waste of time, as you had most of the difficulty of a DB in terms of longer scale and getting good intonation with none of the benefits in terms of real acoustic sound!

Every one I approached about lessons said that I might as well give up the EUB and start on DB straight away as that's what I would be doing eventually and time is short!

Turns out they were right!

(In my case in particular, that is.)

 

[Taylor Livingston]

It seems a lot of DB players don't get that for some people, a real DB is just not a possibility. I live in an apartment with 4 other people, so space is at a premium. I just don't have enough room to have a spot where I can be sure something so expensive and relatively fragile won't get broken. And the expense should not be taken lightly - a lot of people don't have the scratch for a decent bass (which seems to start around the $2k mark) plus a decent bow, case for schlepping, etc. Or a way to transport it.

I am not really that satisified with my foray into the EUB to be totally honest. I just am not able to get the sound I'm looking for. For the moment it's the closest I can get, but I'm thinking that maybe that sound I seek is something I just can't have at this point in my life, and perhaps I'll hang it up until I can get the real thing.

 

[frankie5string]

It seems a lot of DB players don't get that for some people, a real DB is just not a possibility. I live in an apartment with 4 other people, so space is at a premium. I just don't have enough room to have a spot where I can be sure something so expensive and relatively fragile won't get broken. And the expense should not be taken lightly - a lot of people don't have the scratch for a decent bass (which seems to start around the $2k mark) plus a decent bow, case for schlepping, etc. Or a way to transport it.

I am not really that satisified with my foray into the EUB to be totally honest. I just am not able to get the sound I'm looking for. For the moment it's the closest I can get, but I'm thinking that maybe that sound I seek is something I just can't have at this point in my life, and perhaps I'll hang it up until I can get the real thing.

I too am unable to fit or transport a full size bass... I drive a diesel smart car and as I'm sure you've seen them puttering about, unless you have the convertible, you aren't getting a doghouse-bass in there... When I was borrowing one, I used my wifes car to transport it and myself.

I think the key to satisfaction is not to treat it like it's big box brother, but to consider it as having a sound of its own. With the right tweaking you can get DB-like tones, but I personally like the funky NS strings that come on the WAV4 and the unique feel and tone they produce.

I don't see any "da gamba" bass players standing up saying the typical modern doghouse isn't a true bass but I imagine at some point the same argument existed.

 

[Justyn]

I think it's asinine to heckle another player based on his/her choice of instrument. I would give no credence to the opinion of someone who is so close-minded as to be unable to appreciate a piece of music because of the instruments used in the execution of it.

Now if I'm a total hack and my intonation is off and I'm missing changes, then sure, heckle away. Or if you simply don't like the tone of my EUB (or my BG) for any reason, you're completely entitled to that opinion or any other. But don't assume you know why I choose to play the instruments I do or that I'm trying to show disrespect to anyone else's choice of instrument. I looked until I found a teacher (himself a double-bassist) who would teach me on my EUB because I respect the technique of double bassists. As I see it, the part of EUBs lineage which is most closely related to the DB are in the playing technique so I wanted to learn that skillset in order to be able to do it justice. There are other areas of the EUB more akin to BG and I bring those to bear from my BG experience.

No, my EUB is not an acoustic double bass. It has elements of an URB and elements of a BG, making it different than both, but of similar lineage. It has it's own sound and it's one I like and one that fits the needs of my current band. It's the right tool for this gig. Once I have the money and the space I'll be adding an acoustic DB to my toolbox. It won't replace the EUB just like the EUB isn't going to replace the DB. It's another tool with a different tonal character.

The EUB is an odd-looking instrument, in my opinion, but it's what works for me right now and I'd like to think I'm being judged on what I'm playing rather than what instrument I'm playing it on.

J.

 

[rdingess]

Good post. Now let's all do our part to teach the rest of society to experience music in the same way:

Listen with the EARS
Not the EYES

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well - that's the problem - you can't change your audience - you can't inisist that people are open-minded ....

So - I can remember a friend of mine, who played a regular gig with the same people - he said that when he played DB - the audience knew it was going to be Jazz and when he played BG that it was rock...and they were happy that was what it was ...

You can't expect to change the whole of society - especially about something that to most of them, seems pretty trivial - but subconsciously they have all absorbed those cool Black and White photos from Blue Note album covers and when they think of Jazz - that's what comes to mind - horns and Double Bass....?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Bruce, a question for you

I'm worried that with only a few instructional DVDs to guide me so far I'm putting my playing habits for the rest of my life at risk.

I realised I hadn't answered the second part of your question.

So - the thing is - where are you aiming? Do you really want the sound of DB - then I found that the more you use proper DB technique, then the more an EUB sounds like that.

If you are just aiming to play EUB - then you can use any sort of technique - but the problem is intonation. So on my NSCR5 I found that the dots were more unreliable the further up the neck you went - and they make you think you are going to be alright, then suddenly find that a unison line with piano say, shows up how far off you are!

Since moving to DB I have found that my intonation is actually better than on EUB - so there are some tunes I have played with my regular band with both and I can hear how I am closer to the piano on DB than EUB.

DVDs can be useful - I liked Rufus Reid's Evolving bassist DVD. But they are mostly aimed at DB and I think the problem with EUBs is that they are all different, so nobody is going to make a DVD that covers how you get good intonation on a particular EUB - where there is a standard approach for DB.

 

[frankie5string]

DVDs can be useful - I liked Rufus Reid's Evolving bassist DVD. But they are mostly aimed at DB and I think the problem with EUBs is that they are all different, so nobody is going to make a DVD that covers how you get good intonation on a particular EUB - where there is a standard approach for DB.

lol there's a DVD for this? Wow, I'm working with an older copy that is from the 80s... Especially funny are the pics of him showing you how to load your DB onto an airplane - with that big afro do and that little moustache and the wing-tip collar... once you get beyond those funny pictures, it's a good book to work from.

 

[Justyn]

Well - that's the problem - you can't change your audience - you can't inisist that people are open-minded ....

So - I can remember a friend of mine, who played a regular gig with the same people - he said that when he played DB - the audience knew it was going to be Jazz and when he played BG that it was rock...and they were happy that was what it was ...

You can't expect to change the whole of society - especially about something that to most of them, seems pretty trivial - but subconsciously they have all absorbed those cool Black and White photos from Blue Note album covers and when they think of Jazz - that's what comes to mind - horns and Double Bass....?

Admittedly, I think Bruce makes a solid point here. In rereading my post I think it does have a definite 'in a perfect world' vibe that upon further reflection may be a bit unrealistic. Visual impressions are the most immediate and unless you're performing behind a screen it's unavoidable that someone is going to look at you and form their own opinions immediately. At best we can hope that someone like this will be pleasantly surprised should the music not match the visual expectation. I may not like it, but I can't dismiss it either.

Perhaps it would be better to approach things with more of an attitude of understanding that not everyone will like what you do and being willing to acknowledge that but at the same time retain the confidence to keep doing what you're doing - the criticism is unavoidable but shouldn't invalidate your music or your instrument.

I got a bunch of ribbing the other night from a guy who regularly attends my weekly Friday night gig and it made me think about this thread because I wanted to point out the reasons why my EUB is a much better fit for that particularly gig (literally, as I have just enough allotted room on stage for me, my amp and my EUB) and that an amped DB with a pickup would sounds very similar, and that I wasn't going for a true DB tone anyway, but I stopped because that actually sounded like I was making excuses. Maybe I was. A few days ago I was pretty sure of my EUB convictions, so to speak, and today I'm not so sure. I suppose the best advice I can offer is to be confident in your playing and your instrument so that even if you get heckled it doesn't detract from your satisfaction in what you're doing. If it does, well, maybe there's an internal conversation to be had there to figure out why. That's where I am now.

J.

 

[Justyn]

I realised I hadn't answered the second part of your question.

So - the thing is - where are you aiming? Do you really want the sound of DB - then I found that the more you use proper DB technique, then the more an EUB sounds like that.

If you are just aiming to play EUB - then you can use any sort of technique - but the problem is intonation. So on my NSCR5 I found that the dots were more unreliable the further up the neck you went - and they make you think you are going to be alright, then suddenly find that a unison line with piano say, shows up how far off you are!

Since moving to DB I have found that my intonation is actually better than on EUB - so there are some tunes I have played with my regular band with both and I can hear how I am closer to the piano on DB than EUB.

DVDs can be useful - I liked Rufus Reid's Evolving bassist DVD. But they are mostly aimed at DB and I think the problem with EUBs is that they are all different, so nobody is going to make a DVD that covers how you get good intonation on a particular EUB - where there is a standard approach for DB.

Thanks for this. As you can tell from my previous post, I'm in a bit of a quandary currently, and this gives me a lot to think about.

J.

 

[lofreek]

I've had an Azola 5 string Mini for over ten years, and I have done hundreds of gigs and sessions with it. I have never received any negativity towards it, in fact quite the opposite - a sure fire conversation starter. People always come up and want to see it up close and touch it.

 

[akmusicfreak]

I'm a BG player new to the world of DB and EUB.
I have both a DB and EUB and IMHO if your going to dragging around a big amp and playing with loud band, or in a room with bad acoustics you might as well take the EUB instead.
Your can save your back a little and maybe have some more room in your car. Most of your audience is not going to be able to hear the difference between the the 2 anyway.

Sometimes I use only my magnetic pickup so I can cut through the sound of the drums to hear myself ,and not get lost in the mix.

And the next time some one heckles you for playing a EUB ask them if they want to carry your DB and an amp around for you in and out of your car, up that flight of stairs, and down that long hallway onto the stage. I bet they say no.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I'm a BG player new to the world of DB and EUB.
I have both a DB and EUB and IMHO if your going to dragging around a big amp and playing with loud band, or in a room with bad acoustics you might as well take the EUB instead.
Your can save your back a little and maybe have some more room in your car. Most of your audience is not going to be able to hear the difference between the the 2 anyway.

Sometimes I use only my magnetic pickup so I can cut through the sound of the drums to hear myself ,and not get lost in the mix.

And the next time some one heckles you for playing a EUB ask them if they want to carry your DB and an amp around for you in and out of your car, up that flight of stairs, and down that long hallway onto the stage. I bet they say no.

Well it depends what you are doing - what band you are playing with? So I used to play with a large Latin band, loud drummer, percussionists etc. in that case, I agree the audience would never have heard the difference and I actually played BG and occasionally EUB.

Nowadays I play small band Jazz more, with sympathetic drummers and players who leave a lot more space. The bass can definitely be heard and the real "sound of Jazz" that works so well and which people associate with it - is the Double Bass and my EUB doesn't really get close to it -even with very careful playing, amping an EQ-ing!

Also - I just love the feel and physical dimension of DB and so I always make the effort and on the occasions when I have been forced to play EUB due to space or other limitations then I feel "disappointed"... that I haven't got to play my DB!

 

[akmusicfreak]

Well it depends what you are doing - what band you are playing with? So I used to play with a large Latin band, loud drummer, percussionists etc. in that case, I agree the audience would never have heard the difference and I actually played BG and occasionally EUB.

Nowadays I play small band Jazz more, with sympathetic drummers and players who leave a lot more space. The bass can definitely be heard and the real "sound of Jazz" that works so well and which people associate with it - is the Double Bass and my EUB doesn't really get close to it -even with very careful playing, amping an EQ-ing!

Also - I just love the feel and physical dimension of DB and so I always make the effort and on the occasions when I have been forced to play EUB due to space or other limitations then I feel "disappointed"... that I haven't got to play my DB!

Yes I agree it a matter of context. I do love the DB and it's got a sound that nothing can replicate. As well as a feel that is different, IMHO more natural and comfortable. There is a time and a place for everything.
But no one should get heckled for what they play. I think the best analogy I've read is this string so far would be "Nobody heckles the piano player for not showing up to the gig with a real piano" sorry it's a paraphrase, but true.