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Just a rant for a second.... drummer content following

In 12 1/2 years, our drummer has never mentioned my rig, tone or playing. Our guitar player asked me 2 times to turn down a little. He compliments me, saying what I play and my “wall of sound” (his words) makes his job much easier.

We three know our roles and do our jobs and love every minute.
 
Need more information. Judging by your rig, you like a classic blues/rock tone but if the band has brought new types of music into the set list, some adjustments may be needed. I don't see anything wrong with members in the band making suggestions to other members. It's worse when someone gets all mad when you make a suggestion IMO.
 
Need more information. Judging by your rig, you like a classic blues/rock tone but if the band has brought new types of music into the set list, some adjustments may be needed. I don't see anything wrong with members in the band making suggestions to other members. It's worse when someone gets all mad when you make a suggestion IMO.

Try telling a guitarist you don't like the guitar tone or suggest to a drummer they should tune their kit and see what response you get! You could try telling a keyboard player they are too loud but they won't hear you... or anything else...
 
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Except that in the clarifying posts you haven't seen yet, the OP explains that it isn't about tone, it's about hums and rattles of the type that you would expect to have little control over, given the physics of what bass does to objects in a room and the realities of single coil pickups. So I'm not sure what the solution actually is here.

Yes, not to mention the drummer just says stuff like "it sounds weird" or "something's not right". If he cannot hear the bass good enough that's a simple request, turn the amp toward him some, turn it up or give him an extension cab from your rig for monitoring.

Also if the 'tude had corresponded with the arrival of the new Bergantino, that's a factor, but it sounds like the drummer has been complaining about this or that for some time now.

The only thing a drummer ever asked me to do was to TURN DOWN the 2 x 10" bass cabinet I had right behind him at practice. This was in a large practice space where I was using a wall of biamped stuff behind me but it was not even close to directly behind the guy because he had a large drum kit.

I had an extra power amp in my small rig and this extra cabinet so I put it up about 3 feet high behind him and ran 350 watts per speaker into it.

So it could get REAL loud if I wanted it to.

I had it turned down a good ways but not being back there, I could not tell it was oppressively loud for him (he also had wedge monitors from the PA with vocals and keys in them).

So he asked me to turn it down some, kinda sheepishly to which I replied "sure dude, no problem you should have mentioned it earlier!"

Problem solved......

Analogeezer

p.s. This guy is a real pro BTW, one of those guys who supplements his income by playing in three bands at once. He is also a very accomplished bass player but plays a very different style than me.

I respect the hell out of the guy and if he had made some suggestions about my tone or setup I would have taken them to heart.

The only thing we ever did not see eye to eye on was the amount of reverb on the snare in our recordings. He was a bone dry kinda guy but for the music we were playing that was not 100% appropriate. Still I turned it back some from where I would have had it out of respect for his wishes
 
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Maybe he knows what he’s talking about??

One of the ‘gifts’ of playing a multitude of instruments is that I get to know, when I’m playing bass, what I would want/expect from a bass player if I were the drummer or guitarist or keyboardist etc in this ensemble. It has opened up my ears, and gotten my ego out of the way.

So maybe try his suggestions, and see what happens….????

But the issue is not his suggestions, he is not making suggestions, he is complaining with non-specific complaints, some of which have nothing to do with the bass.

It's not guidance like "can you cut some of the bass" or " can you dial back the volume" or "can you add some mids so I can year you better". It's stupid crap like "my snare is buzzing".

Well Dingus snare drums buzz at certain frequencies in a room, turn off your strainer until you start to play the song. Most drummers I have played with this do it all the time if people in the room are working on parts or sections.

Also if your snare is buzzing too much, it's likely the strainer is not tight enough or it needs some dampening.

A common tweak when recording is to tighten the strainer a bit or add some felt below.

Analogeezer
 
Drummers. Just.

Anyway, I'm just looking for support or maybe to just whine like a baby, but I love my drummer. He's my brother in law, great dude great player. But for the two years we've played together he is constantly (at least once or twice a practice, and at gigs...) commenting on my tone and how I should do this or do that. Now to be fair in those two years I have switched things up a bit, but always on my terms. I've played bass for 25 years. I've been working on it since the day I got one, and recently I have finally entered my happy place. I just want to be left alone. For reference, I am playing through a Peavey VB-2 and into a Bergantino NXT212. EQ set mostly flat, premp gain down power tube gain up. Using a P bass with a jazz at the bottom. Nothing crazy. But I've also used 4-5 other basses and those have never gotten a comment.

Do other drummers do this? Does it make you mental? I am being too sensitive, or is this something that maybe the guy slapping stuff with sticks should not comment on? Anyway, felt good just to write it out. I just really want to be left alone in the pocket and focus on what's important.

Really it's just annoying and I was looking to see if this was an overall drummer thing or just this drummer thing, or maybe it's a me thing. Who knows.


Tell them they should try standing up, and playing their kit where you're standing - it sounds awesome.


If that doesn't give them a new perspective, constantly suggest they use a different type of beater, so the kick drum & bass guitar work together more effectively.
 
Try telling a guitarist you don't like the guitar tone or suggest to a drummer they should tune their kit and see what response you get! You could try telling a keyboard player they are too loud but they won't hear you... or anything else...
Wow. Really? lol

Back when I was playing lead guitar, I played thru a Marshall Major stack. Had a nice Trower-like, full tone. Then I joined a band with a keyboardist, and after a couple rehearsals they told me my tone needed a change. I had to lose some of the luscious creamy low-mids and work more in the treble range to make sonic room for the keys. After listening to a couple recordings of our rehearsals, I had to agree with them.

And before that, as a drummer I’d learned from the various players over the years that the tuning of my drums for heavy rock was not the optimal tuning for a jazz trio.

Maybe I’ve just been lucky to have always worked with players who can take suggestions, and can give them without being nasty.
 
Drummers. Just.

Anyway, I'm just looking for support or maybe to just whine like a baby, but I love my drummer. He's my brother in law, great dude great player. But for the two years we've played together he is constantly (at least once or twice a practice, and at gigs...) commenting on my tone and how I should do this or do that. Now to be fair in those two years I have switched things up a bit, but always on my terms. I've played bass for 25 years. I've been working on it since the day I got one, and recently I have finally entered my happy place. I just want to be left alone. For reference, I am playing through a Peavey VB-2 and into a Bergantino NXT212. EQ set mostly flat, premp gain down power tube gain up. Using a P bass with a jazz at the bottom. Nothing crazy. But I've also used 4-5 other basses and those have never gotten a comment.

Do other drummers do this? Does it make you mental? I am being too sensitive, or is this something that maybe the guy slapping stuff with sticks should not comment on? Anyway, felt good just to write it out. I just really want to be left alone in the pocket and focus on what's important.

Really it's just annoying and I was looking to see if this was an overall drummer thing or just this drummer thing, or maybe it's a me thing. Who knows.

I’ve never had a complaint or a suggestion about improving my tone. Seriously, the closest I got to that was a new keyboard player once asked me why I don’t use flat wound strings. I powered up my gear and played one note. He replied, “Oh, I get it now”.

My suggestion, record you next gig, then get him alone play it and ask him what the problem is? If he still objects, ask him to provide recorded examples for what he thinks is the ideal sound. Then compare. That should put an end to the discussions.
 
Drummers. Just.

Anyway, I'm just looking for support or maybe to just whine like a baby, but I love my drummer. He's my brother in law, great dude great player. But for the two years we've played together he is constantly (at least once or twice a practice, and at gigs...) commenting on my tone and how I should do this or do that. Now to be fair in those two years I have switched things up a bit, but always on my terms. I've played bass for 25 years. I've been working on it since the day I got one, and recently I have finally entered my happy place. I just want to be left alone. For reference, I am playing through a Peavey VB-2 and into a Bergantino NXT212. EQ set mostly flat, premp gain down power tube gain up. Using a P bass with a jazz at the bottom. Nothing crazy. But I've also used 4-5 other basses and those have never gotten a comment.

Do other drummers do this? Does it make you mental? I am being too sensitive, or is this something that maybe the guy slapping stuff with sticks should not comment on? Anyway, felt good just to write it out. I just really want to be left alone in the pocket and focus on what's important.

Really it's just annoying and I was looking to see if this was an overall drummer thing or just this drummer thing, or maybe it's a me thing. Who knows.

I’m a drummer and I do this all the time. For the defense of this species, drummers play not one but multiple instruments at the same time, and that’s maybe One reason for being picky.
OTOH you don’t sound very confident about your tones. Have you tried to make your stand, even argue why your tone is what it is.
 
Wow. Really? lol

Back when I was playing lead guitar, I played thru a Marshall Major stack. Had a nice Trower-like, full tone. Then I joined a band with a keyboardist, and after a couple rehearsals they told me my tone needed a change. I had to lose some of the luscious creamy low-mids and work more in the treble range to make sonic room for the keys. After listening to a couple recordings of our rehearsals, I had to agree with them.

And before that, as a drummer I’d learned from the various players over the years that the tuning of my drums for heavy rock was not the optimal tuning for a jazz trio.

Maybe I’ve just been lucky to have always worked with players who can take suggestions, and can give them without being nasty.

Got to admit I find the idea of a keyboard player saying anything should make sonic room for keys to be rather amusing, what with keyboards filling the entire human hearing range and beyond :)

I also had a lead guitar phase but have usually gone for the smallish combo option, although I do like a full guitar sound rather than a trebly one.

Any scenario where one player is telling another to stay out of their frequency range is frankly doomed to failure as instruments cross over so much in that respect. How do you make a viola stay out of the frequency range of a piano or a bassoon steer clear of a trombone? It's timbre that separates them rather than frequency.

With amplified rock instruments you just have to hope individual players will be considerate and not sonically dominate everyone else. Although with a 7-string bass and multiple octave pedals I could be king of every frequency known to the human ear...
 
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I have read about 2/3rds through the thread and find it pretty humorous...or should I say sad.

I could be wrong, but I get the impression the OP is more of a set-it-and-forget-it type. The OP repeatedly infers a distaste for going down the old "old rabbit hole." The drummer is more of a tinkerer type, who likes to constantly assess and try to make improvements. So right off there are two conflicting mind sets.

I am probably more like @Analogeezer as I have decades of experience as both a pro touring bass player and also a pro touring audio tech. I am squarely in line with the tinkerer mind set, and I live constantly in the place the OP would describe as the "rabbit hole."

One problem is the the term rabbit hole has a negative connotation. Here's the definition: Rabbit Hole (is) "used to refer to a bizarre, confusing, or nonsensical situation or environment, typically one from which it is difficult to extricate oneself."

Here's the deal, running sound is part science and part art; so the environment I work in can tends to appear "bizarre, confusing, and nonesensical," to someone who has no grasp of acoustics and/or how to build a mix...but it's actually a medium I enjoy working in, and I feel that I can generally make better. I have received tons of positive feedback from audience members after shows.

Unfortunately due to the nature of acoustics and how sound propagates, I generally don't have total control over the acoustic environment. If the musicians take an inflexible attitude and refuse to negotiate on levels and possibly EQ, it tends to degrade or even totally eliminate my ability to build and maintain a good mix. There is generally no set it and forget when you are running audio. There is almost always something you need to change. People tend to blame the audio tech when the mix is bad, but I can assure you the musicians frequently have a significant role when the sound sucks at a concert.

My personal feeling is there needs to be a reasonable compromise, because it's generally impossible for everyone to get what they want. The audio tech is an advocate for the audience, but the musicians must have a certain quality level in order to perform. Frequently the audio tech will desire the musicians to turn down so he/she has more control over the house sound. In other words, the idea is to reduce the level of the stage wash, so it does not mask and degrade the clarity the PA can provide to the audience. In many circumstances the audio tech would prefer if there was no sound coming from the stage, but of course that is entirely unreasonable unless everyone is in IEMs and the drummer is playing an E-kit.

IMHO this is where the compromise comes in. The musicians accept less stage volume than they want, and the audio tech accepts more stage volume than he/she wants. Nobody gets exactly what they want.

Here is my best guess as to what is going on. The drummer wants to hear the bass more clearly. It does not matter that the OP has a fabulous bass amp, the drummer can not hear as well as he wants. In my experience every drummer is different, some want to hear only somewhat incoherent lows, and some want to hear more of the attack and tone center.

The front of the cab is where most of the clarity and focus are. The side and back of the cab will only provide the incoherent lows. Remember, the low frequency dispersion of a cab tends to be omni-directional, and the mids and highs tend to shoot out the front of the cab.

I don't find it unusual whatsoever for others to comment how they perceive the tone of my bass. I generally worked with full PA systems where everyone had a monitor, so if anyone wanted more or less bass they worked it out with the audio tech. Sometimes I did need to turn down, but due to the way I setup my amp, this was rare.

I also did some gigs where my amp carried the house, and little if any bass was sent through the PA. Generally the band leader will go out and call audibles: turn up/turn down, more/less treble, more/less bass, etc. What the leader wanted to hear out in the house was often the opposite of what I wanted to hear on stage.

In addition, sometimes the other musicians may critique or ask for changes to the bass sound. As a tweaker, I understand that there are times I can make changes that will make someone happier, but you probably can't make everyone happy. If the band has a leader, as far as I am concerned the leader calls the shots. If the band is more of a democracy, everyone should negotiate.

Unfortunately many people seem to expect that their listening experience must be perfect. IMHO there should be an expectation that the bass amp is the bassist's personal monitor. So there should be some priority given to the bassist's preferences and needs, but there still should be some degree of compromise.

Here's part of why it's impossible for everyone to have a perfect listening experience. First you need to realize that SPL drops off at a rate of 6dB for each doubling of distance. So lets assume you are hearing 124dB at a distance of 2 meters from you amp.

Here are the doublings and result SPLs on axis.
12m = 118dB
24m = 112dB
Let's keep in mind the 2m is about 6", 12m is almost 40', and 24m is almost 80'.

Now the next part of the puzzle is each person typically wants to hear themself about 6-10dB louder than everyone else.

Let's assume a huge stage where you (the bass player) are 12m/~40' from the guitarist. At this distance your 124dB drops off 6dB to 118dB at the guitarists position. In order for him/her to get the desired 6-10dB, the guitar must be set for 124-128dB at their position. If they are at 124dB, you may perceive the guitar as being right on the edge of too loud. If they are at 128dB, if their amp is aimed in your direction, you will hear them at 122dB, which is only 2dB below the level you are hearing your bass. Remember you want your own 6-10dB, so you will probably think the guitar is too loud.

The idea here is if everyone sets their volume to 124dB, all of the musicians must be separated by approximately 12m/40' to get close to the desired balance. Most bands perform in spaces that are way too small to separate everyone by 12m/40'. Also spreading people out too far tends to make it feel like you are playing in different times zones.

Hard to say for sure, but IMHO: OP you seem to be taking this way too seriously/personally. I doubt the drummer is really critiquing your sound. Rather, it's likely he is simply saying he's not getting exactly what he wants. Maybe there is room for compromise, and maybe there is not. A solution may involved changing your, volume, changing the position and aim of your amp, and even adjusting your tone controls.


I really thought I was done with this, but alas. This one is way off base. I also like to tinker and change things up. You really are missing the point. It isn't like a one time thing, or a little suggestion here and there. Lately it has become every practice, every show. It's comments, are you sure that effect works? I'm not sure about that bass. That line doesn't work. Try something more like...idk dumba dumba dumba. It's exhausting. I have tons of gear, have worked sound, and yeah I am still trying to get better tone, heck even the last show I learned something from the bass player in the band we played with. He had a different EQ setting then what I normally used, allowed more volume and less mud, worked well on that stage. I've put my rig on stands. I've taken it off stands. I've added cabs. I've subtracted cabs. I've played fretless, five strings, jazz basses, ibanezes, laklands, you freaking name it. He thought I should play my acoustic every show from now on cause I did one acoustic set, fought the damn thing all night with feedback, but that was great. Listen i get it....I'm just tired of having to constantly battle this.

I also do enjoy feedback, I like talking to people in band about what they need and want. But when you do that and the shell moves every week it's like *** do you want from me. I was looking for ways to approach him and talk about it, kind of see where my position was, whether I was off base or not. After reading all the comments I think it warrants a discussion next time he brings it up and I am just going to say back off, I got this.

And yes rabbit hole in this conotation is negative. I am not playing my acoustic every set. I'm not going to keep trying to find gear with no end game. The goal IS to sound like blues, again we are doing Elle King, Leonard Cohen, Black Keys kind of stuff.

I've played shows where I can hear every note, and FOH sounded like crap. I've played shows where I can't hear a note but FOH is great, mostly some outdoor type stuff. We are mostly a very quiet band. I would rather have the latter. I am just trying to figure out how to approach this without making a huge deal, but now this thread has gone south and people are making serious assumptions about me and him that just aren't true.
 
If a drummer tells me to turn up or down then thats understandable…. But i dont see how tone would affect him.

If the drummer can only hear your lows, it can seem like you are playing way behind the beat and/or dragging. Rather than pulling back, most drummers will push ahead...which can make matters even worse.


It the drummer hears more of your mids and highs, it moves the perception of where you are placing the beat forward in time.

I have done experiments where simply adjusting my treble control can impact if it feels like the drummer and I are fighting or locking in and grooving.
 
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Except that in the clarifying posts you haven't seen yet, the OP explains that it isn't about tone, it's about hums and rattles of the type that you would expect to have little control over, given the physics of what bass does to objects in a room and the realities of single coil pickups. So I'm not sure what the solution actually is here.


I actually read that post. Whether it's right or wrong, I interpreted it as sympathetic vibrations; in other words the drums are rattling and or ringing. If my assumption is correct, it's up to the drummer to adjust and tune his drums to eliminate the problem.
 
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