You may as well fire the drummer and just never make the snarky remarks. It would likely end better that way.If it does, fire the drummer.
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Just a rant for a second.... drummer content following
- Thread starter madmarvin
- Start date
D
Deleted member 165050
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Drummers are all control freaks and narcissists. I mean who else needs the rest of the band to leave the stage for like forever when they take a solo? It's just me, me, me. And underneath it all is their secret fear that they're not actually *real* musicians.
Just kidding
My work here is done...
Drummers only complain if you crank you bass and it makes their bass drums resonate wildly (and it not a very good sound and worse if they are micing it ) or you are pushing the air on their ears.
Maybe you are occupying his tone frequency too much. Do you have an HPF?
Maybe you are occupying his tone frequency too much. Do you have an HPF?
D
Deleted member 165050
Guest
And now the real response...
If someone continually criticises and undermines you they are trying to gain control of you by making you always rely on them for advice. It is a classic bullying / control mechanism. The key is to find out what their agenda is.
If someone continually criticises and undermines you they are trying to gain control of you by making you always rely on them for advice. It is a classic bullying / control mechanism. The key is to find out what their agenda is.
Is he at a higher level than you in experience, professionalism, etc.? If so, then yes, humbly consider his suggestions. I.e. If Steve Gadd commented on my tone, I'd listen. This kind of thing actually did happen to me back in the 80s, although it wasn't Gadd. It helped me as a player.
If your drummer's not on that level, then, your call. I might still be open to what he has in mind. Well, as long as his drum tone is AWESOME!
Edit: just read some of your other replies. Yeah tell him to pound sand.
If your drummer's not on that level, then, your call. I might still be open to what he has in mind. Well, as long as his drum tone is AWESOME!
Edit: just read some of your other replies. Yeah tell him to pound sand.
Don't stress about it.
I've had the same criticisms from my brother/drummer...
Keep in mind, they sit further away from your bass rig than you do and what you hear hitting the back of your legs may very well sound different 5, 10, 15 feet away.
If he hears something that he doesn't like the sound of, then I think the criticism should be welcomed.
Ask him to be specific about the things he is, or isn't, hearing. Then, make some adjustments. If it sounds better or worse, you'll soon know and you can always go back to your original settings.
Don't be put off by criticism, for it is a vital part (along with self criticism) in obtaining the truth. Fearing, avoiding and resisting criticism, only leads to bigger unresolved problems. As you have read in some of the responses, some have gone straight to reaction or confrontation and the problem only multiplies and the sound issue still isn't resolved.
Accept the criticism gracefully, make adjustments and if he is still not happy, then you have done what has been asked of you and it hasn't solved his problem, thus the problem rests elsewhere.
I've had the same criticisms from my brother/drummer...
Keep in mind, they sit further away from your bass rig than you do and what you hear hitting the back of your legs may very well sound different 5, 10, 15 feet away.
If he hears something that he doesn't like the sound of, then I think the criticism should be welcomed.
Ask him to be specific about the things he is, or isn't, hearing. Then, make some adjustments. If it sounds better or worse, you'll soon know and you can always go back to your original settings.
Don't be put off by criticism, for it is a vital part (along with self criticism) in obtaining the truth. Fearing, avoiding and resisting criticism, only leads to bigger unresolved problems. As you have read in some of the responses, some have gone straight to reaction or confrontation and the problem only multiplies and the sound issue still isn't resolved.
Accept the criticism gracefully, make adjustments and if he is still not happy, then you have done what has been asked of you and it hasn't solved his problem, thus the problem rests elsewhere.
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I sure do wish I could love this advice. In my experience, most critics don’t know enough to be critical in a useful way but they do it anyway because they think they know more than they do. If you aren’t experienced enough to know what’s good advice and what’s BS, taking it on board can be really damaging.
As someone above said, if he’s Steve Gadd, you probably want to take this attitude. But there are so many not-Gadds out there, it’s a bit unlikely. Use common sense before you enter the realm of crippling self doubt.
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drumvsbass
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Never experienced that type of thing with a drummer, but have with a guitarist. Best advice I can give is to humor him as long as you can stand to. Or start giving him micro-critiques of his drumming.
Thanks for all the feedback, like I said originally this was more of a rant than anything else. It’s not so much this or that, just that it always seems to happen, and it certainly feels like some level of general insecurity in all sorts of other things.
I’ve been playing for 25 years, so I’m not inexperienced, I need to just stick to my guns and direct him in a different direction.
I’ve been playing for 25 years, so I’m not inexperienced, I need to just stick to my guns and direct him in a different direction.
Was he right?
I've been known to ask for opinions and I'll always consider what's I'm told. Sometimes I'll go with suggestions and sometimes I won't. I've had several, "Now, why didn't I think of that!" moments as a result. Never be too precious and learn from the opinions of others.
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I think this calls for more communication. As someone else said, maybe he can't hear you. Maybe he's gotten feedback from people outside the band about your excessive volume or low end competing with the vocals. Or generally muddying the mix. Or something. It wouldn't hurt to ask him to be more specific. Maybe his insights would help.
I have read about 2/3rds through the thread and find it pretty humorous...or should I say sad.
I could be wrong, but I get the impression the OP is more of a set-it-and-forget-it type. The OP repeatedly infers a distaste for going down the old "old rabbit hole." The drummer is more of a tinkerer type, who likes to constantly assess and try to make improvements. So right off there are two conflicting mind sets.
I am probably more like @Analogeezer as I have decades of experience as both a pro touring bass player and also a pro touring audio tech. I am squarely in line with the tinkerer mind set, and I live constantly in the place the OP would describe as the "rabbit hole."
One problem is the the term rabbit hole has a negative connotation. Here's the definition: Rabbit Hole (is) "used to refer to a bizarre, confusing, or nonsensical situation or environment, typically one from which it is difficult to extricate oneself."
Here's the deal, running sound is part science and part art; so the environment I work in can tends to appear "bizarre, confusing, and nonesensical," to someone who has no grasp of acoustics and/or how to build a mix...but it's actually a medium I enjoy working in, and I feel that I can generally make better. I have received tons of positive feedback from audience members after shows.
Unfortunately due to the nature of acoustics and how sound propagates, I generally don't have total control over the acoustic environment. If the musicians take an inflexible attitude and refuse to negotiate on levels and possibly EQ, it tends to degrade or even totally eliminate my ability to build and maintain a good mix. There is generally no set it and forget when you are running audio. There is almost always something you need to change. People tend to blame the audio tech when the mix is bad, but I can assure you the musicians frequently have a significant role when the sound sucks at a concert.
My personal feeling is there needs to be a reasonable compromise, because it's generally impossible for everyone to get what they want. The audio tech is an advocate for the audience, but the musicians must have a certain quality level in order to perform. Frequently the audio tech will desire the musicians to turn down so he/she has more control over the house sound. In other words, the idea is to reduce the level of the stage wash, so it does not mask and degrade the clarity the PA can provide to the audience. In many circumstances the audio tech would prefer if there was no sound coming from the stage, but of course that is entirely unreasonable unless everyone is in IEMs and the drummer is playing an E-kit.
IMHO this is where the compromise comes in. The musicians accept less stage volume than they want, and the audio tech accepts more stage volume than he/she wants. Nobody gets exactly what they want.
Here is my best guess as to what is going on. The drummer wants to hear the bass more clearly. It does not matter that the OP has a fabulous bass amp, the drummer can not hear as well as he wants. In my experience every drummer is different, some want to hear only somewhat incoherent lows, and some want to hear more of the attack and tone center.
The front of the cab is where most of the clarity and focus are. The side and back of the cab will only provide the incoherent lows. Remember, the low frequency dispersion of a cab tends to be omni-directional, and the mids and highs tend to shoot out the front of the cab.
I don't find it unusual whatsoever for others to comment how they perceive the tone of my bass. I generally worked with full PA systems where everyone had a monitor, so if anyone wanted more or less bass they worked it out with the audio tech. Sometimes I did need to turn down, but due to the way I setup my amp, this was rare.
I also did some gigs where my amp carried the house, and little if any bass was sent through the PA. Generally the band leader will go out and call audibles: turn up/turn down, more/less treble, more/less bass, etc. What the leader wanted to hear out in the house was often the opposite of what I wanted to hear on stage.
In addition, sometimes the other musicians may critique or ask for changes to the bass sound. As a tweaker, I understand that there are times I can make changes that will make someone happier, but you probably can't make everyone happy. If the band has a leader, as far as I am concerned the leader calls the shots. If the band is more of a democracy, everyone should negotiate.
Unfortunately many people seem to expect that their listening experience must be perfect. IMHO there should be an expectation that the bass amp is the bassist's personal monitor. So there should be some priority given to the bassist's preferences and needs, but there still should be some degree of compromise.
Here's part of why it's impossible for everyone to have a perfect listening experience. First you need to realize that SPL drops off at a rate of 6dB for each doubling of distance. So lets assume you are hearing 124dB at a distance of 2 meters from you amp.
Here are the doublings and result SPLs on axis.
Now the next part of the puzzle is each person typically wants to hear themself about 6-10dB louder than everyone else.
Let's assume a huge stage where you (the bass player) are 12m/~40' from the guitarist. At this distance your 124dB drops off 6dB to 118dB at the guitarists position. In order for him/her to get the desired 6-10dB, the guitar must be set for 124-128dB at their position. If they are at 124dB, you may perceive the guitar as being right on the edge of too loud. If they are at 128dB, if their amp is aimed in your direction, you will hear them at 122dB, which is only 2dB below the level you are hearing your bass. Remember you want your own 6-10dB, so you will probably think the guitar is too loud.
The idea here is if everyone sets their volume to 124dB, all of the musicians must be separated by approximately 12m/40' to get close to the desired balance. Most bands perform in spaces that are way too small to separate everyone by 12m/40'. Also spreading people out too far tends to make it feel like you are playing in different times zones.
Hard to say for sure, but IMHO: OP you seem to be taking this way too seriously/personally. I doubt the drummer is really critiquing your sound. Rather, it's likely he is simply saying he's not getting exactly what he wants. Maybe there is room for compromise, and maybe there is not. A solution may involved changing your, volume, changing the position and aim of your amp, and even adjusting your tone controls.
I could be wrong, but I get the impression the OP is more of a set-it-and-forget-it type. The OP repeatedly infers a distaste for going down the old "old rabbit hole." The drummer is more of a tinkerer type, who likes to constantly assess and try to make improvements. So right off there are two conflicting mind sets.
I am probably more like @Analogeezer as I have decades of experience as both a pro touring bass player and also a pro touring audio tech. I am squarely in line with the tinkerer mind set, and I live constantly in the place the OP would describe as the "rabbit hole."
One problem is the the term rabbit hole has a negative connotation. Here's the definition: Rabbit Hole (is) "used to refer to a bizarre, confusing, or nonsensical situation or environment, typically one from which it is difficult to extricate oneself."
Here's the deal, running sound is part science and part art; so the environment I work in can tends to appear "bizarre, confusing, and nonesensical," to someone who has no grasp of acoustics and/or how to build a mix...but it's actually a medium I enjoy working in, and I feel that I can generally make better. I have received tons of positive feedback from audience members after shows.
Unfortunately due to the nature of acoustics and how sound propagates, I generally don't have total control over the acoustic environment. If the musicians take an inflexible attitude and refuse to negotiate on levels and possibly EQ, it tends to degrade or even totally eliminate my ability to build and maintain a good mix. There is generally no set it and forget when you are running audio. There is almost always something you need to change. People tend to blame the audio tech when the mix is bad, but I can assure you the musicians frequently have a significant role when the sound sucks at a concert.
My personal feeling is there needs to be a reasonable compromise, because it's generally impossible for everyone to get what they want. The audio tech is an advocate for the audience, but the musicians must have a certain quality level in order to perform. Frequently the audio tech will desire the musicians to turn down so he/she has more control over the house sound. In other words, the idea is to reduce the level of the stage wash, so it does not mask and degrade the clarity the PA can provide to the audience. In many circumstances the audio tech would prefer if there was no sound coming from the stage, but of course that is entirely unreasonable unless everyone is in IEMs and the drummer is playing an E-kit.
IMHO this is where the compromise comes in. The musicians accept less stage volume than they want, and the audio tech accepts more stage volume than he/she wants. Nobody gets exactly what they want.
Here is my best guess as to what is going on. The drummer wants to hear the bass more clearly. It does not matter that the OP has a fabulous bass amp, the drummer can not hear as well as he wants. In my experience every drummer is different, some want to hear only somewhat incoherent lows, and some want to hear more of the attack and tone center.
The front of the cab is where most of the clarity and focus are. The side and back of the cab will only provide the incoherent lows. Remember, the low frequency dispersion of a cab tends to be omni-directional, and the mids and highs tend to shoot out the front of the cab.
I don't find it unusual whatsoever for others to comment how they perceive the tone of my bass. I generally worked with full PA systems where everyone had a monitor, so if anyone wanted more or less bass they worked it out with the audio tech. Sometimes I did need to turn down, but due to the way I setup my amp, this was rare.
I also did some gigs where my amp carried the house, and little if any bass was sent through the PA. Generally the band leader will go out and call audibles: turn up/turn down, more/less treble, more/less bass, etc. What the leader wanted to hear out in the house was often the opposite of what I wanted to hear on stage.
In addition, sometimes the other musicians may critique or ask for changes to the bass sound. As a tweaker, I understand that there are times I can make changes that will make someone happier, but you probably can't make everyone happy. If the band has a leader, as far as I am concerned the leader calls the shots. If the band is more of a democracy, everyone should negotiate.
Unfortunately many people seem to expect that their listening experience must be perfect. IMHO there should be an expectation that the bass amp is the bassist's personal monitor. So there should be some priority given to the bassist's preferences and needs, but there still should be some degree of compromise.
Here's part of why it's impossible for everyone to have a perfect listening experience. First you need to realize that SPL drops off at a rate of 6dB for each doubling of distance. So lets assume you are hearing 124dB at a distance of 2 meters from you amp.
Here are the doublings and result SPLs on axis.
12m = 118dB
24m = 112dB
Let's keep in mind the 2m is about 6", 12m is almost 40', and 24m is almost 80'. 24m = 112dB
Now the next part of the puzzle is each person typically wants to hear themself about 6-10dB louder than everyone else.
Let's assume a huge stage where you (the bass player) are 12m/~40' from the guitarist. At this distance your 124dB drops off 6dB to 118dB at the guitarists position. In order for him/her to get the desired 6-10dB, the guitar must be set for 124-128dB at their position. If they are at 124dB, you may perceive the guitar as being right on the edge of too loud. If they are at 128dB, if their amp is aimed in your direction, you will hear them at 122dB, which is only 2dB below the level you are hearing your bass. Remember you want your own 6-10dB, so you will probably think the guitar is too loud.
The idea here is if everyone sets their volume to 124dB, all of the musicians must be separated by approximately 12m/40' to get close to the desired balance. Most bands perform in spaces that are way too small to separate everyone by 12m/40'. Also spreading people out too far tends to make it feel like you are playing in different times zones.
Hard to say for sure, but IMHO: OP you seem to be taking this way too seriously/personally. I doubt the drummer is really critiquing your sound. Rather, it's likely he is simply saying he's not getting exactly what he wants. Maybe there is room for compromise, and maybe there is not. A solution may involved changing your, volume, changing the position and aim of your amp, and even adjusting your tone controls.
I play with musicians who are considerably better/more accomplished than I am more often than not ... so I have to look up to see the bottom of the Mariana Trench as far as my place in the pecking order. Getting/keeping the gig is more able being professional, reliable and a good hang so the only words out of my mouth regarding the playing or sound of my fellow players are positive, supportive ones. I've gotten to play with some great drummers and have been given direction by them from time to time. I just take it to heart and try to do the best I can.
Except that in the clarifying posts you haven't seen yet, the OP explains that it isn't about tone, it's about hums and rattles of the type that you would expect to have little control over, given the physics of what bass does to objects in a room and the realities of single coil pickups. So I'm not sure what the solution actually is here.
Maybe he knows what he’s talking about??
One of the ‘gifts’ of playing a multitude of instruments is that I get to know, when I’m playing bass, what I would want/expect from a bass player if I were the drummer or guitarist or keyboardist etc in this ensemble. It has opened up my ears, and gotten my ego out of the way.
So maybe try his suggestions, and see what happens….????
