Just another rant

[Gothic]

play them some Nolly Getgood(Periphery)... Modern and def not just roots...

Oh I proceeded to quote a lot of prog rock and metal, if only to prove a point. Answer was, "we're not playing prog dude, just cause you can play that s%^t doesn't mean it fits our style". This, after obviously explaining that, just because I -can-, doesn't mean all I wanna do is shred everywhere. But alas, it was for nought. Can't force width on narrow minds.

A little noteworthy fact here, if I may. Lead guitarist is a good player. Young and quite narrow minded but very talented. Got his problems otherwise but that's not my point right now. Rhythm guitarist and drummer are just plain not up to par. When everyone got to choose a cover, I chose Iron Maiden's Wrathchild. Response from most everybody was as usual "not our style, too metal" (what?!? just listen to the amount of distortion you use! ffs!) and drummer's response is a flat-out "I can't play that". So, yeah. Disappointed and considerably limiting...
I'm not into shredding myself. I can play a lot of fast and some technical stuff alright, I suppose but again, I greatly value the melodic side and never played anything remotely fast or too technical to be dismissed with such a broad stroke. Just... awful. Pff...

In any case, I see myself leaving soon. We got some gigs scheduled and I said I'm gonna play them and I'm a man of my word. But come new year, I'm most likely out. I've already got a few of my own pieces down in rough demos and got a singer, too. Just a matter of finding the right guitarist and drummer. And thinking about that, I'm honestly overwhelmed with feelings of "oh god not this s... again..."

 

[Mike Whitfield]

Honestly, I'd be pretty happy about getting that much in I thought it was a terrific part for that song that sounds like you got some melody in there. If you pick your spots that well on everything, I don't see a problem for them or you. Maybe they just want you to pick your spots a little less.

They did play over each other at times, which is poor planning and/or coordination. But it seems like they want a bass player who's only there to make the guitarist look good, i.e. play very minimally so that the guitarist has the freedom to wank whenever the mood strikes him rather than at planned points that go with and build upon the other musicians' parts. Like there is respect between bandmates, but it only flows one way. Shouldn't that be an employee rather than a band member? Personally I could listen to that bass line over and over (reminds me of Phil Lesh) but the guitarist, as technically proficient as he is, I'd probably not make a whole song. Just waaaay too busy - and I own quite a few Bonamassa albums, so my tolerance for wanking done right is fairly high. I'd recommend he listen to some B.B. King or Buddy Guy and learn about the value of negative space. Then he could put together lead guitar parts that build something with the bass line that together is better than the sum of the two parts.

Hope his buddies don't know his tag here 'cause this thread is the poster child for your "why I don't rant about band issues" rant.

 

[juggahnaught]

Google Docs link isn't working - any way to upload to Soundcloud or something? Wanted to give it a listen myself.

 

[marqueemoon]

I would be done with that situation personally. With original music people need to be trusted and empowered to do their thing, and if there are conflicts they need to be worked out in a mature manner.

The mixing incident would have been the last straw for me. It’s not possible to take a melodic part with some movement and transform it into something different by rolling off the highs and mids. Doing this will make the whole band sound bad. If the song calls for a different bass line a different bass line needs to be tracked.

 

[Gothic]

They did play over each other at times, which is poor planning and/or coordination. But it seems like they want a bass player who's only there to make the guitarist look good, i.e. play very minimally so that the guitarist has the freedom to wank whenever the mood strikes him rather than at planned points that go with and build upon the other musicians' parts. Like there is respect between bandmates, but it only flows one way. Shouldn't that be an employee rather than a band member? Personally I could listen to that bass line over and over (reminds me of Phil Lesh) but the guitarist, as technically proficient as he is, I'd probably not make a whole song. Just waaaay too busy - and I own quite a few Bonamassa albums, so my tolerance for wanking done right is fairly high. I'd recommend he listen to some B.B. King or Buddy Guy and learn about the value of negative space. Then he could put together lead guitar parts that build something with the bass line that together is better than the sum of the two parts.

Hope his buddies don't know his tag here 'cause this thread is the poster child for your "why I don't rant about band issues" rant.

I think the Phil Lesh thing might be the best compliment I got so far! I'm humbled man, thanks! And I don't much care even if they do. I've pointed out all these things time after time and I've been roundly ignored. I'm on my way out, anyway.

Google Docs link isn't working - any way to upload to Soundcloud or something? Wanted to give it a listen myself.

I don't know man, it seems to be working. It should play on talkbass fine.

I would be done with that situation personally. With original music people need to be trusted and empowered to do their thing, and if there are conflicts they need to be worked out in a mature manner.

The mixing incident would have been the last straw for me. It’s not possible to take a melodic part with some movement and transform it into something different by rolling off the highs and mids. Doing this will make the whole band sound bad. If the song calls for a different bass line a different bass line needs to be tracked.

Yes, I'm done as well. I don't think the "hang" is enough and most replies on this thread convinced me I'm not just being irrational about this. I'm handing my "two weeks notice" as soon as possible. I'll honor the gigs but that's all.
And yes, about the mixing. It's such a complicated story and I've been suggesting trying to find a sound that fits all and toning down the guitars and all kinds of things to improve but, yeah, just me getting red in the face and again, ignored.
It wasn't their decision exactly and the studio engineer/producer handled it but it was so damn complicated and again, none of my input was heeded and I was even accused of wanting the song to be "all bass", when I pointed out that the mix is such that I'm there just for some vague low/sub frequencies for the guitars to wail over.

Perhaps they'll understand at some point but I doubt it. Ex members have quit for similar -if not the exact same- reasons and it seems to me that, with this attitude, the door's just going to keep revolving until the finally implode. Or maybe they'll find a player more suited to their supposed style and content with just keeping the song going and everybody will be happy. Time will tell.

Oh well, off to better things, I suppose.

 

[juggahnaught]

Google Drive was saying that the file had been downloaded too many times - I guess there's a rate limit. Seems to have reset.

Took a listen. I think that this is one of those cases where musically, they'd be okay with what you're doing if it felt right to them, but it doesn't and they don't know how to articulate it or give you actual constructive criticism on your lines. They can only tell that something doesn't feel right, and so they default to "simplify the line". This happens a lot to drummers because many musicians don't speak their language, so instead of saying "hey, you should do a paradiddle roll on the snare there instead of the tom groove to lead into the ride cymbal part", they'll just say "the drummer's too busy". Sad situation. Fixing it starts with all of us.

As for my constructive criticism for the song and your line - I think it's all pretty good. While I do like the rhythm at 1:31 (you create a groove with the drums while accenting the eighth notes of the riff), etc, I do think that following that ascending "c-d-f" riff of the guitar would be more powerful than the counterpoint you're doing. You do this at 1:20 already. Alternatively, you could counterpoint in a similar way, but end on the A1 instead of doing the chromatic walk up to the D, creating a bit of chord movement there.

While I like the little walk-up at 1:12, because the rhythm guitars are playing that Bb power chord, there's a bit of dissonance that doesn't seem so constructive (it's not the right kind of tension in my opinion) when you play the E. You might consider replacing that tritone E with the A about it - the fifth of D and the seventh of Bb.

Someone already mentioned the bass solo and the guitar solo and it sounded like this wasn't the final arrangement for that. The guitar solo is definitely a bit long in its current form and I'd say that the song needs to pick back up after the first half of the guitar solo - drums need to go back into the power drive, and the chord progression needs to call back to either the verse or the chorus. Having minutes of a half-time guitar solo is just kind of a snoozefest, but if you all use dynamics to support that solo it can be awesome. (Think Pantera - Cemetery Gates - first half of the solo is lyrical over the half-time bit, then slam - it picks up and it's awesome! Your guitarist already doing some quick riffs here so it'd work. End on a high note - you don't want to go out limp and flaccid. I mean, unless you do. Maybe that's your thing.)

Overall, I like your bassline and the overall music. The verse and chorus actually remind me of Guilty Gear and that's awesome to me. I don't think that your band is right about simplifying the bassline. I do think, however, that they don't know how to articulate the issues they may be hearing and they don't know how to discuss different musical approaches with you. It might be little things like the snippets I posted above, or maybe other things entirely. This means that until they hear something they like, they won't know how to get it, so you're going to have to look at those nuances. I do think that there are some subtle ways of improving your line via note choice and rhythm choice. Finally, I do think it's also worth considering that improving the overall mix may help the perceived sound.

Good luck, man.

 

[Mr_Moo]

My 2 cents:

They seem to feel it's their band and their style. Feels like they don't see you as an equal member.

The rhythm guitar is ok for what it is, the singing is ok for what it is. But the two don't belong together, at least not if we're being genre purists. (Which seems to be the point).

The drumming is crap. No bassist should have to endure that.

The lead guitar is overly self-indulgent.

I understand the need to network and be on the scene. But that's not a healthy situation to be in for long.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

Also, if a band wants simple bass lines, a bass players responsibility is to deliver those simple lines or move on to a project more suited for their style.

Sorry, but no. Absolutely not. "A band" includes the bass player. I don't tell the drummer how to play, I don't tell my singer how to phrase is melody lines etc. They can suggest lines and licks all night, and I am more than open to it. But unless they deliver a fully recorded demo with EVERYONE's parts predetermined, I will not sit by and let them make decisions for me.

Having said that, our guitarist also plays bass. He mainly writes the music we're working on now, and sometimes he will suggest bass riffs for his songs. I will work with them, and with him, to get at the best bass line for his song, that I enjoy playing. We communicate, and do so clearly.

 

[fhm555]

Sorry, but no. Absolutely not. "A band" includes the bass player. I don't tell the drummer how to play, I don't tell my singer how to phrase is melody lines etc. They can suggest lines and licks all night, and I am more than open to it. But unless they deliver a fully recorded demo with EVERYONE's parts predetermined, I will not sit by and let them make decisions for me.

Having said that, our guitarist also plays bass. He mainly writes the music we're working on now, and sometimes he will suggest bass riffs for his songs. I will work with them, and with him, to get at the best bass line for his song, that I enjoy playing. We communicate, and do so clearly.

So do you educate the band so they want more than simple lines, or flex your chops and musical acumen as you explain why they are wrong and you are right? Apparently I was not clear when i said “if a band wants” as opposed to “it is incumbent on the bass player”. I never said a bass player should keep it simple as SOP, but “if a band wants” then it seems in the spirit of cooperation a member of the team would give the rest of the group what it wants.
This is a typical example of teamwork, individual sacrifice for the greater good. This is why i prefer a BL situation. You have a boss and you follow instructions. If that creates butt hurt, it’s best to move on. Go find a project that is worthy of your creative skills and give it your all but why create dissonance by being the only holdout to an otherwise unanimous band decision?

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

Apparently I was not clear when i said “if a band wants” as opposed to “it is incumbent on the bass player”.

I may have misinterpreted your post, because to me it read as a "the rest of the band vs the bass player" type of statement. And frankly, I see a lot of "everyone can tell the bass player what to play" type of posts here on TB, often from bass players themselves (please note, not pointing at @fhm555 here - making a general statement). And that just is not right in my book, because of the reasons I mentioned above. And in such a situation, I would assess for myself inhowfar the band is right.

Personally, I always invite feedback. The difference is, I will ask for someone's input or opinion, if I feel they have something to contribute. Our singer sometimes has good ideas, but more often than not he really has no idea what he is talking about and will often just cause frustration - most of his "suggestions" are aimed at our drummer, who also does not like to be told what to play. I often ask my guitar player for suggestions, especially if it's a song he wrote but for which he has not determined an "appropriate" bass line.

I am all for team work, because a band is a team. And if I find myself in a band where there is a clear and defined band leader who has a vision for the band and my playing needs to fit that vision, then I deliberately chose that setting and will accept the "consequences" that come with it. But in bands without a BL, such as my own, it's as much my band as it is the others' so I better be treated on equal terms.

Hope I managed to get my point across, @fhm555 because judging from your reply, we are probably more aligned than I initially thought :thu:

 

[fhm555]

I may have misinterpreted your post, because to me it read as a "the rest of the band vs the bass player" type of statement. And frankly, I see a lot of "everyone can tell the bass player what to play" type of posts here on TB, often from bass players themselves (please note, not pointing at @fhm555 here - making a general statement). And that just is not right in my book, because of the reasons I mentioned above. And in such a situation, I would assess for myself inhowfar the band is right.

Personally, I always invite feedback. The difference is, I will ask for someone's input or opinion, if I feel they have something to contribute. Our singer sometimes has good ideas, but more often than not he really has no idea what he is talking about and will often just cause frustration - most of his "suggestions" are aimed at our drummer, who also does not like to be told what to play. I often ask my guitar player for suggestions, especially if it's a song he wrote but for which he has not determined an "appropriate" bass line.

I am all for team work, because a band is a team. And if I find myself in a band where there is a clear and defined band leader who has a vision for the band and my playing needs to fit that vision, then I deliberately chose that setting and will accept the "consequences" that come with it. But in bands without a BL, such as my own, it's as much my band as it is the others' so I better be treated on equal terms.

Hope I managed to get my point across, @fhm555 because judging from your reply, we are probably more aligned than I initially thought :thu:

I read you 5 by 5.

 

[Tazziedevil]

Sure. It's a rough mix of the single I was talking about. And they seem to want my parts "simplified". Honestly don't know how much simpler they can get.

hmm, there are lots of issues here to my ears. Your bass sounds great- deep, eq’d well. BUT.

The guitarist’s tone is irritating, bordering on unlistenable. It seems to change from scooped with zero mids to shrill and his style of soloing doesn’t help him. I get that guitarist still physically explode if they don’t get to shred and show off their mad skillz, but if you’re going to be a “guitar solo” type band, man, you gotta bring the goods and I don’t hear anything interesting from his soloing.

the singers voice I don’t care for, but he seems to be in tune and comes in at the right times.

I wouldn’t complain it was playing that bass line, it’s more interesting than a lot of us get to play; but I get it’s all relative and understand your frustration if that’s not what you were recruited to play.

 

[Gothic]

Well, first off, I honestly didn't expect that many replies! Appreciate everyone taking the time to chime in!

Now, a little update. We did talk, and we talked after I said my piece and essentially gave my "two weeks notice". Things -seemed- good enough but, well, I think it's kind of a "broken glass" situation, to be honest. I've been seriously turned off by other members' behaviour and the grandiose thinking without having even the basics (music!) to back it up just seems straight up stupid to me. You can't be thinking about forking over however much for merch when you only got an EP with former members (including a female singer, no less!) out. Not to mention the same damn covers for six months, over and over and over. I mean for god's sake! And, of course, my nagging suggestion to change at least the covers, was met with derision and the "we should opt for more of our own stuff" schpiel. Suffice to say, we never worked on either of those things.

I reluctantly accepted to still be a member on the condition that my complaints would be heard but... Well, there's this big "but" in my mind and I think I've already checked out, to be honest, even if it does get better (highly doubt it). In any case, I'm in until the holidays are over,we already got two gigs anyway but I don't see myself staying longer than that. It's supposed to be fun and it's stopped being fun a while ago.

I already got a couple of other gigs offered but, honestly, while I love hard rock and metal, I'm way too tired of the whole shebang with twin guitars and their inevitable ego issues and I can't see myself enjoying another "wall of distortion" type of band.
There's an indie/post-something-or-another band that are more up my alley, I think I'm gonna give those guys a try. They're just starting out as well, so... it'll be one of those experiences where it might actually be awesome if it works and, if it doesn't, well at least you get out early!
In any case, I'd love to actually be heard and to have the freedom to go for my melodic style unhindered by notions of what the genre "should" be and whether or not the bass player's role is endlessly debatable in an originals band!

 

[Mike Whitfield]

Good luck brother. Hope you find the band where you can grow and have fun and play your way rather than be relegated to Team Metronome. Hopefully a more laid back band where the guitarist(s) leave you some room.

I know it's cliche on TalkBass (You liked the bass line? Really? Me too!) but your playing was really the only thing I found noteworthy on that sample. The guitarist is skilled, but I agree with Tazzie - there's nothing interesting about his playing. He's like a writer who's technically proficient but has no story to tell and no interesting characters, and unfortunately it sounds like he's more interested in making sure everyone else best showcases his own part than in making that part unique and truly interesting. If I were listening sixty seconds in - and honestly, I probably wouldn't be - it would be only for the bass line as even during that brief sample, the guitarist had become irritating. Wall of distortion is an apt description. Wall of generic distortion would be even better IMHO. I think you can do better, and certainly find a better fit.

 

[Mike Whitfield]

I may have misinterpreted your post, because to me it read as a "the rest of the band vs the bass player" type of statement. And frankly, I see a lot of "everyone can tell the bass player what to play" type of posts here on TB, often from bass players themselves (please note, not pointing at @fhm555 here - making a general statement). And that just is not right in my book, because of the reasons I mentioned above. And in such a situation, I would assess for myself inhowfar the band is right.

Personally, I always invite feedback. The difference is, I will ask for someone's input or opinion, if I feel they have something to contribute. Our singer sometimes has good ideas, but more often than not he really has no idea what he is talking about and will often just cause frustration - most of his "suggestions" are aimed at our drummer, who also does not like to be told what to play. I often ask my guitar player for suggestions, especially if it's a song he wrote but for which he has not determined an "appropriate" bass line.

I am all for team work, because a band is a team. And if I find myself in a band where there is a clear and defined band leader who has a vision for the band and my playing needs to fit that vision, then I deliberately chose that setting and will accept the "consequences" that come with it. But in bands without a BL, such as my own, it's as much my band as it is the others' so I better be treated on equal terms.

Hope I managed to get my point across, @fhm555 because judging from your reply, we are probably more aligned than I initially thought :thu:

Well said. A band leader who dictates every member's style had better be writing nice big fat checks because if one isn't an equal partner, then one is an employee and should be appropriately compensated.

 

[51PRI]

Guitar mirroring, mostly, yes. Just extremely dumbed down versions of whatever I would otherwise play.

Why not try to do what they ask and play a part that they...the songwriters...think works for the song instead of intentionally dumbing it down?

 

[Gothic]

Why not try to do what they ask and play a part that they...the songwriters...think works for the song instead of intentionally dumbing it down?

First off, they're not the "songwriters". We either jam or have a riff or something we bring to rehearsal and go from there. There were few times when one of us brought a full song and even that usually got worked on and changed in the process. So no crystal clear vision there. I've brought a few songs and was open to changes and input as well.

Secondly, I don't understand the whole "works" for a song thing, really. Sure, some things might sound too... "off" but, other than that, who's in the right about that? Say two members like a root pumping thing, two others like something melodic, fifth guy likes neither of those and wants a slap riff. Who's right? We usually take the "democratic" route and try everything and vote for it.

Thing is, on the "dumbing down" subject, unless I play something different from the guitars, "dumbed down" and guitar mirroring is what they expect and are okay with. If I "stray" too far, things start to get debateful.

In any case, they are indeed showing signs of acceptance and they do seem to start to appreciate having something different on the bass, so far as to ask me to stay and work on all those things. Lead guitarist included, which was quite the surprise. Guess we'll see.

 

[Tazziedevil]

First off, they're not the "songwriters". We either jam or have a riff or something we bring to rehearsal and go from there. There were few times when one of us brought a full song and even that usually got worked on and changed in the process. So no crystal clear vision there. I've brought a few songs and was open to changes and input as well.

Secondly, I don't understand the whole "works" for a song thing, really. Sure, some things might sound too... "off" but, other than that, who's in the right about that? Say two members like a root pumping thing, two others like something melodic, fifth guy likes neither of those and wants a slap riff. Who's right? We usually take the "democratic" route and try everything and vote for it.

Thing is, on the "dumbing down" subject, unless I play something different from the guitars, "dumbed down" and guitar mirroring is what they expect and are okay with. If I "stray" too far, things start to get debateful.

In any case, they are indeed showing signs of acceptance and they do seem to start to appreciate having something different on the bass, so far as to ask me to stay and work on all those things. Lead guitarist included, which was quite the surprise. Guess we'll see.

to be fair I don’t listen to metal, and don’t really play it but the thing about guitar mirroring is it always just sounds like a giant wall of mud, especially if there’s two guitarists and both are playing a 7 string and chugging away power chords.

either have the bass chugging away rhythmic roots while the guitars do something or the other way around. I don’t really get “mirror the guitar” In that context.

 

[Mike Whitfield]

Saw something last night that struck a chord with me on this topic. We saw Samantha Fish and her opening act was Nicholas David, a soul singer who plays keyboard. His drummer was David Hawkins, with whom I'm not familiar, but shockingly, his bassist was Justin Corgan, lately with Devon Allman both in the Devon Allman Project and with Duane Betts. He's an incredible young bassist, and with just a three piece (Nicholas David plays organ so there's no guitar at all) there was a lot of space, but Corgan was surprisingly spare with the notes and it really, really fit the songs. There were a couple funk tunes (in my unlearned opinion by far the best of David's set) in which Corgan really got to show his chops, but for the most part he was very restrained in what he played.

Not saying the OP should be playing such simple parts, just saying that I was actually quite impressed with Corgan's restraint and how well he served the songs.

 

[Gothic]

@Mike Whitfield ah well I left that band anyway, started something way more relaxed and stress and drama free, where I can soar like the eagles!
Got a last gig this Friday that's nothing more than a chore, really and it's bye bye.