Double Bass Just hit 400 hours!

[Anthony White]

Nice work on the 400 hours!

How do you find Modacity as a practice tool? What do you find the advantages are for you?

 

[Anthony White]

Gladwell is a great and compelling writer, and is wonderful at popularising concepts. He also writes - and he freely admits this - easy reading popular books. I think I've even seen an interview with him where he calls them airport books.

The 10,000 hours thing is from an study led by Anders Ericson, and it is a lot more subtle than just 'practice 10,000 hours for mastery.' It looked at graduates of college music programmes and conservatories, and asked their teachers to judge them by how promising they were. They roughly grouped them into 'potential soloists', 'good ensemble/orchestra players' and something like 'will be good high school music teachers' (this is from my memory, and I find that categorisation a little problematic on its own). The first group had typically done upwards of 10,000 hours in their lives, by the time they graduated college. The second group 6,000 hours, and the third group circa 4,000 hours. It was never supposed to be '10,000 hours to mastery', but more '10,000 to be one of the top college music graduates'.

Ericson et al's original paper was published sometime in the mid-90s, and (in my reading, anyway) was really about providing some data to push against 'being a great musician is just about talent'. "Here's some data that shows the significant impact deliberate practice has on outcomes." Which was very valuable at the time, and is still valuable now, if not misinterpreted. Ericson even wrote something a few years ago, pointing out all the ways that their original paper had been misinterpreted, by Gladwell and others.

 

[Eli Brockway]

A lot of what K. Anders Ericsson studied was how experts become experts. Hours put in is one thing, quality of teaching is another, natural talent (or lack thereof) also applies. But being an expert and being a master are different things, and just hours put in doesn't matter much if it's not constantly pushing you outside of your comfort zone and previously established boundaries to really steadily grow, rather than just maintaining the present level.

 

[David Potts]

Unlike Neil above I don't think that the double bass is frightening difficult to play, especially if you can get off to a good start, eg good first teacher, right sized well set up instrument, a bow that works and enough physical and mental aptitudes. The hours spent practicing can be a joy if you love the sound and visceral nature of the bass. Much depends on the ability and enthusiasm of the first teacher. The difficulty is mainly set by the music repertoire and standard of ensembles you wish to attain. If you have the talent and drive to become a "master" player you will be drawn upwards in steps towards lessons from one or more "master" teachers, probably in well known institutions. The hardest, almost impossible road is to teach yourself IMO.

 

[Eli Brockway]

Unlike Neil above I don't think that the double bass is frightening difficult to play, especially if you can get off to a good start, eg good first teacher, right sized well set up instrument, a bow that works and enough physical and mental aptitudes.

I can hear the combined laughter and cries of sadness and rage from public school music teachers all across the United States (and hopefully just us) already...

I actually got pretty lucky when I started in fifth grade. We had so many kids wanting to play bass that the school district had to order three new quarter sized basses for my elementary school specifically.

Didn't have another good one to play on until my last two years before graduating.

 

[BobDeRosa]

Who was it who said “most people don’t know how hard it is to suck at jazz”

That's one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard.

 

[Neil Pye]

Unlike Neil above I don't think that the double bass is frightening difficult to play, especially if you can get off to a good start, eg good first teacher, right sized well set up instrument, a bow that works and enough physical and mental aptitudes. The hours spent practicing can be a joy if you love the sound and visceral nature of the bass. Much depends on the ability and enthusiasm of the first teacher. The difficulty is mainly set by the music repertoire and standard of ensembles you wish to attain. If you have the talent and drive to become a "master" player you will be drawn upwards in steps towards lessons from one or more "master" teachers, probably in well known institutions. The hardest, almost impossible road is to teach yourself IMO.

I get what you're saying David, and I love playing bass above nearly everything else in my life. The fact remains though, that compared with the other stringed instruments, the technical and physical demands are huge. The bass is a much more difficult instrument to play than the violin, viola or cello, for many may reasons. We should all be proud of our abilities and the joy we bring ourselves and others.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

When things are going right, practicing and playing the bass is an end in itself. A meditation that requires no justification beyond the simple act of doing, experiencing, and being in the flow.

When things are not going as well, the only cure I know of is to find a way to surrender to the headspace described above. But I know this: the very best musical moments I’ve ever experienced came from that state of mind.

 

[damonsmith]

I don't really buy the 10,000 hours thing. Especially if we are including playing. We all have run across people who have been at it for decades and the time alone just hasn't helped them.
I think there is a time element for sure, but, also the factors @David Potts mentions above.

One of the things that it is very hard to get through to people is that "playing" can atrophy your technique. This is why we need both practicing and playing. There is an element of "cleaning up the mess" that has to be done in practice after extend periods of playing.
So, I don't think every one of our hours has the same impact - some might even cancel out an hour or half an hour!

Then of course, there is how you are going to turn your experiences and things you study into art - I don't think that is always time based situation. People who are getting experiences with great players as well as great teachers early on have solid head start on those who don't.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I actually got pretty lucky when I started in fifth grade. We had so many kids wanting to play bass that the school district had to order three new quarter sized basses for my elementary school specifically.

Good to hear your school supported music for the kids.

My impression is schools today do not support music, at least in my area. Everything is sports related. Team sports are important too but should not be at the expensive of music programs.

A topic for another thread

 

[oldNewbie]

It was never supposed to be '10,000 hours to mastery', but more '10,000 to be one of the top college music graduates'.

Ericson et al's original paper was published sometime in the mid-90s, and (in my reading, anyway) was really about providing some data to push against 'being a great musician is just about talent'. "Here's some data that shows the significant impact deliberate practice has on outcomes." Which was very valuable at the time, and is still valuable now, if not misinterpreted. Ericson even wrote something a few years ago, pointing out all the ways that their original paper had been misinterpreted, by Gladwell and others.

Thanks @Anthony White and @Eli Brockway for the best summary of Gladwell’s misinterpretation and Ericson’s original work . The “Gladwell says 10,00 hours” meme gets recirculated on TB a few times a year and maddeningly the misrepresentation sticks better than the very useful and well-demonstrated research.

A feature of these recycled threads is the confusion of skills with musical expression, two orthogonal discussions and no consensus. The 10k hours is about gaining the skills to express oneself musically, what comes out after that is a matter of the performer’s inner self and unique ideas they want to express. At every level of skill, your inner self is represented but the better your skill set, the clearer those ideas will be. And no one whose playing you like or want to emulate has gotten to that point without the many thousands of hours of deliberate practice ,having read Ericson’s books or not.

And so for the rest of us, Ericson’s own ‘Talent is Overrated’ is imo the most useful one-line takeaway, though there is plenty more. Working in short concentrated bursts , working on highly specific skills slightly out of reach, immediate feedback and skilled instruction among others.

Two years and almost 1400 hours later, I use Modacity every day and find it extremely useful. Don’t use the short-term goals with review enough, but use all the other functions - drone, metronome, recording, lists of practice items. I bug them about their bugs and possible improvements, Marc has been responsive and the product continues to get better. My excellent local teacher - we almost doubled the frequency of lessons during COVID - will agree that progress has been steady and my playing has improved substantially in that time. One big way that Modacity improves lessons is helping to group and classify various aspects of my playing , easier to keep track of things in my head by daily enforced habits.

 

[damonsmith]

I think the issue with looking at racking up hours is that you really risk hating music and the bass by the end of it. Of course you don't want use the idea of over-practicing as an excuse to not practice, but trying to rack up hours makes it a concern.
Just make sure you are practicing things for long term and short term goals - one of those goals needs to be that you still love music and the bass!

 

[Alexis Duntov]

I think the issue with looking at racking up hours is that you really risk hating music and the bass by the end of it. Of course you don't want use the idea of over-practicing as an excuse to not practice, but trying to rack up hours makes it a concern.
Just make sure you are practicing things for long term and short term goals - one of those goals needs to be that you still love music and the bass!

I suppose that’s one outcome. In my experience, the logging of the hours COMBINED with the improvement is what keeps the momentum going and the satisfaction box ticked. During lockdown, I had some of the most concentrated shed time I’ve had to date, and I was extremely detailed about what I spent my time on, to the point of obsession. But once I started playing with others again, the evidence of the hard and focused work was indisputable. And of course, it’s still a bear of an instrument and a serious commitment on a regular basis, and presumably until I’m Casals’ age when he uttered his famous line. Frankly, I’m just amazed that I got through the first few years when it seemed impossible to get any musical sounds out of my instrument. Were I a less stubborn kind of fellow, I’m not sure I would have persisted.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Nice work on the 400 hours!

How do you find Modacity as a practice tool? What do you find the advantages are for you?

I think it's a fantastic practice tool. I like the fact that it does all the tallying for you and you have deep visibility into what you have spent your time on. I like the way I can create custom practice lists on the spot (for example, in advance of a gig). I used to log my time in spreadsheets, and then in Apple or Google calendar, but I like that I can see cumulative amounts as well as look at what I did on a given day. I use the drone, the metronome, and the timer every day. I rarely use the recording feature (audio quality is not great and I prefer to do video recordings of double bass stuff since it's so physical, there are so many aspects of posture, bow control etc.) I was a little put off by the monthly subscription, but then they made an offer of a one time purchase for service in perpetuity and I just did that. I love the app and it's how I practice now. I gather they are developing new channels so you track multiple instruments, which I will use for electric bass and piano practice.

 

[damonsmith]

Of course - as usual, my posts were more general and more on the 10,000 hours thing. I also kept a strong practice regimen during the last year and I am also feeling it as I get back to playing with others more. You are right, it is a great feeling! I took a bit further still by getting my basses set up, the old one restored and my gear into better order!
So, congratulations on the 400 hours! It is cool to have some numbers.

I suppose that’s one outcome. In my experience, the logging of the hours COMBINED with the improvement is what keeps the momentum going and the satisfaction box ticked. During lockdown, I had some of the most concentrated shed time I’ve had to date, and I was extremely detailed about what I spent my time on, to the point of obsession. But once I started playing with others again, the evidence of the hard and focused work was indisputable. And of course, it’s still a bear of an instrument and a serious commitment on a regular basis, and presumably until I’m Casals’ age when he uttered his famous line. Frankly, I’m just amazed that I got through the first few years when it seemed impossible to get any musical sounds out of my instrument. Were I a less stubborn kind of fellow, I’m not sure I would have persisted.

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

I think the issue with looking at racking up hours is that you really risk hating music and the bass by the end of it. Of course you don't want use the idea of over-practicing as an excuse to not practice, but trying to rack up hours makes it a concern.
Just make sure you are practicing things for long term and short term goals - one of those goals needs to be that you still love music and the bass!

I would add that worrying about getting your hours in has a sort of “gulping for air” feeling about it and I’ve found that desperation for improvement inevitably degrades the quality of the time spent.

But then again I’m skeptical of anything that involves an app simply because that $4!+ inevitably is using you as much as you are using it. Haha